Update on Taim, intense revelation!!!

[yoniy0]

You know, there's very little to suggest that the DO can punish channeling in SG, unless one is tied to him. At least, very little that I remember.

[OptimusPrime]

Brandon has implied that built-in Traveling is (or should be) impossible. That's why they stopped tying off gateways. (Actually RJ did that in KOD.)

 

 

Where has he implied this?

 

Anyway maybe it is impossible, but I still think the two are used as one fortress. Item 14 of your interview that FSM linked says the aoe of the Dreamspike is adjustable, therefor gateways can be allowed as and when. There are probably Travelling grounds in the Blight fortress and in Taims palace. So maybe not built in Travelling, unless Ter'angreal doorways come into it somehow.

[TheAngryDruid]

For me, the two lines of the prohecy (his blood on the rocks of SG; in the Pit of Doom...) aren't mutually exclusive. In that, the blood on the rocks of SG could take place at the BT, AND Rand could travel SG later, still injured, to finish the job at the Pit of Doom. Or, the whole shebang could take place at SG. The only option off the table with my reading would be all of it taking place around the BT.

 

As for the rocks, a special property could be the truch. However, since Taim is Moridin, I think he just wanted to feel at home.

[Terez]

Brandon has implied that built-in Traveling is (or should be) impossible. That's why they stopped tying off gateways. (Actually RJ did that in KOD.)

 

 

Where has he implied this?

 

Here.

[Cybertrolloc]

There's at least a handful of other instances: Rand, Sammael, maybe one of the AoL visions/memories/mentions, but the first two can easily happen without.

 

Don't think much of the cat is put back in the bag with that change, it's still easy enough to Travel to make a mess of things.

[OptimusPrime]

Brandon has implied that built-in Traveling is (or should be) impossible. That's why they stopped tying off gateways. (Actually RJ did that in KOD.)

 

 

Where has he implied this?

 

Here.

 

Thanks.

 

I didnt enjoy that.

 

Limiting something now because of what it might have implied about the AoL? Tied off gateways were cool BECAUSE of the implications of what it could have on the world, BECAUSE of the logistics involved.

 

*spits dummy out*

[Rufae]

I'm surprised no one has suggested that Dashiva was the one who turned Taim to the Shadow? Seems obvious to me.

[Terez]

It's obvious Taim wasn't turned.

[fikkie77]

It's obvious Taim wasn't turned.

obvious? no. But it's not obvious that Taim once walked in the Light either. He might be turned years ago though. In any case, it's not likely he was turned during the books.

[Terez]

It's obvious because the people who have been turned are obviously inhuman. Taim isn't; therefore he wasn't turned.

[fikkie77]

We're not sure that Mezar and Tarna are turned. I think so, but we don't know for sure.

Besides, that qualification was given by people who knew them before 'something' happened. We have no reactions of people who knew Taim before it might have happened. Bashere might be someone who could have noticed a change, but there's about one encounter onscreen between those two.

[Terez]

We're not sure that Mezar and Tarna are turned.

 

I am sure. You can speak for yourself. I suppose Morvrin is your hero?

 

Besides, that qualification was given by people who knew them before 'something' happened.

 

It doesn't matter, since they have clearly inhuman attributes. If you'd never met one of them before, you'd still know something was wrong.

 

We have no reactions of people who knew Taim before it might have happened.

 

It doesn't matter, because Taim's eyes are far from cold and lifeless, and he never smiles. Mezar never smiled before he was turned, either, or at least rarely did.

 

Something was deeply wrong, something not-quite-alive inside those eyes. This didn't seem to be a man, but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin.

 

That is not Taim.

[fikkie77]

I'm not on the side of 'Time was turned'. Neither am I on the side of 'Tarna and Mezar aren't turned'.

I'm just surprised that you're so certain of your findings.

[Terez]

I don't see why. The descriptions are quite clear.

[fikkie77]

It was mentioned elsewhere that they could also be mindtrapped with the cour'souvra crushed. I believe the 13x13 trick to be more logical, but I don't see my theories as absolute truths. Even if all your theories are true (and I believe they might all or almost all be) you shouldn't act like they are.

[DemandredFO]

What would be the point of mindtrapping them and crushing it. Wouldn't they be walking around drooling like that Ogier elder or Mesaana. They were turned or replaced.

[fikkie77]

No, they would be puppets, controlled by a puppetmaster (the one who was holding the cour'souvra). The effect would look quite the same as the 13x13 trick, except even less human and more empty. I don't think there would be humour left or much interaction with other people. So, 13x13 seems what has happened at the BT, but until it has been revealed, we can't be entirely sure.

[Terez]

I don't see why. The descriptions are quite clear.

 

There is a difference between theories and facts; we're dealing with facts here, little as some want to admit it. (In case you aren't aware, Brandon told us before TOM came out that we would see 13-13.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

The mindtrap theory is implausible. They would be puppets, Mezar still has his memories and mannerisms. A puppet would not.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Lol, when I saw "Update on Taim, Intense Revelation-last post Barid Bel Medar", my first thought was "hey, I thought Taimandred was wrong, but Demandred's showing up to confirm it!"

[OptimusPrime]

We're not sure that Mezar and Tarna are turned.

 

I am sure. You can speak for yourself.

 

Hahaha I love it

[FarShainMael]

No, they would be puppets, controlled by a puppetmaster (the one who was holding the cour'souvra). The effect would look quite the same as the 13x13 trick, except even less human and more empty. I don't think there would be humour left or much interaction with other people. So, 13x13 seems what has happened at the BT, but until it has been revealed, we can't be entirely sure.

 

I don't think there was any humour in Mezar, despite his smiling. Norley says 'The smile is wrong. All wrong.' People smile for many other reasons than humour, and some smiles can be quite unpleasant and worrying.

 

But there could be interaction even if they're puppets, if they're given appropriate commands.

 

Someone who has been Turned would, I can't help thinking, still appear human though evil, not 'a shadow stuffed inside human skin' or 'not quite alive'.

 

So, on the whole, I favour the 'mindtrapped' idea.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Again, it is implausible. The wearer of a mindtrap which has been crushed becomes a mindless puppet. Mezar has his memories and mannerisms, he is just crazy evil. It is impossible for it to be a broken mindtrap. Both Tarna and Mezar are too human. Nobody could order them to act so if they are a lifeless puppet. They still think and react to stimuli.

 

"It's not really Mezar," Norley said. "Oh, it has Mezar's face, right enough. But it's not him. I can see it in his eyes. Trouble is, whatever the thing is, it has Mezar's memories. Talks right like him. But the smile is all wrong. All wrong."

 

Actually," Tarna said, continuing to write, "I've been thinking on what we discussed last night. Perhaps I was hasty. There is much to learn here, and there is the matter of the rebels outside. If we leave, they will bond Asha'man, which should not allow."

[FarShainMael]

Not a broken one, perhaps. How much do we know about those things?

 

But equally, I don't feel that the description of Mezar fits a crazy evil person. I can't help but feel that a Turned person would still have a personality, just a severely warped one.

 

Still, we're in the realm of opinions here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moggy and Cyndane are not changed by the Mindtrap. They are still themselves. They don't become mindless sacks of evil.

 

Edit: will link to Mindtrapp: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mindtrap http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/mindtrap.html

 

Mezar's description is perfectly in line with what a warped personality would be.

 

Both Tarna and Mezar still have personalities, they just look cold and lifeless.

 

Which is what you would expect.

 

Remember this is not a scientific report on Mezar, it is what Androl thinks, of someone who used to be a friend.

 

He isn't going to think "Well, Mezar looks like somebody has twisted his personality somehow and he now has all of his good side supressed."

 

No, he is going to think "THAT'S NOT MEZAR. IT IS SOME CRAZY SOULLESS DEMON!"

 

Androl and Pevera are people who no nothing of the 13-13, and who used to be friends with these people. They do not have the luxury of theorizing about what said people would look like in what situation.

 

I think this is being over-thought. It is a perfectly normal reaction to have, considering the circumstances. Rand often thinks that Lan has a face like a rock. He doesn't really have a face with similar properties to stone, it is just he is a hard man.

 

But, I do agree, it is not CERTAIN, in the sense that nobody has said "This is so." However, it is a bit like saying Moridin is not Ishamael reborn.