"I know your blood and your line..." Uhm, so?

[Randommer]

This is from TGH chapter 15, when Ishamael's busy being the man of Rand's dreams (self eye-role):

 

"I am not the Dargon! My name is Rand al'-"....

"Oh, I know the name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer." [stuff about him being all eye-flamey] "I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment."

 

This seems like a very weird conversation to me in terms of WoT. It's been said a number of times that LTT killed 'everyone bearing a drop of his blood' (which always seemed suspiciously specific), but here it seems as though Ishy's claiming Rand and LTT shared a lineage. 'Blood' (in terms of hereditary traits like old tongue / Aiel battle mantra babbling and various things attributed to the 'old blood') is something we hear a lot of in the first few books, before references to hereditary anything promptly disappear, due to the fact that it seemingly makes no sense.

 

We have it from Rand/LTT's integration and the fact that certain souls are spun out again and again to be important (or, according to Artur Hawkwing, can even be recruited to be a hero of the horn after showing exceptional bravery in one particular lifetime) that most of WoT people's important characteristics are linked to the soul, not genetics. It seems from Rand/LTT and Birgitte that culture and upbringing definitely have an impact, but we have no idea where 'blood' would fit into this mix at all.

 

But then, why all the references to it? Why bother with the genetic memory thing? Could it maybe be that only certain bodies suit certain souls? So, if Mat is Aemon reborn, was he reborn in the Two Rivers because of a shared lineage? Is this why Rand's parents had to be such specific people / will we discover not all of LTT's relatives were killed?

 

Yes, I am just totally rambling, but the 'blood' thing has never made any sense to me, and particularly those Ishy quotes above. Theories, anyone?

[Azrayne]

Ishammael was batshit insane at the time, worth bearing in mind.

[James al'Dylan]

I thought Ishamael believes he's fought Lews Therin again and again, but he is, after all, utterly insane. The Dragon is tied to the pattern as are others, I don't think their blood comes into it much other than to fulfill certain aspects of prophesy.

[David Selig]

True Power is a hell of a drug.

[Randommer]

Yes Ishamael was crazy, but it seems like an incredibly random and specific thing to make up for absolutely no reason. We know from RJ that some of the other crazy/lying stuff Ishy said at the time was actually true. In fact, other than pretending to be the DO, I can't remember anything he said that was outright false?

[kght22]

i'm thinking maybe ishy had a similar revelation to rand, and went the other way. he decided he wanted to end it instead of let it keep happening over and over again.

 

and maybe somehow he retains more memories than rand.

 

i'm pretty sure about the first sentence, but not a clue on the second.

[Randommer]

Huh just found this BS quote on theoryland:

 

"Some very telling moments in the conversation between Ishamael and Rand in the portal world of The Great Hunt."

Granted, that conversation has a lot of different stuff in it, but still interesting.

 

Also, the chapter is actually called Kinslayer, which may be another allusion to the 'blood' stuff.

[kght22]

thanks for the pinpoint

 

and this thread is about this little exchange in tgh chapter 15 kinslayer

“Oh, I know the name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer.” Ba’alzamon’s voice began to rise in intensity; sometimes the fires of his eyes flared so high that Rand could see them through the openings in the silk mask, see them like endless seas of flame. “I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment. You can never hide from me. Never! We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin. Ordinary men may hide in the sweep of the Pattern, but ta’veren stand out like beacon fires on a hill, and you, you stand out as if ten thousand shining arrows stood in the sky to point you out! You are mine, and ever in reach of my hand!”

 

don't know if that is the part brandon was talking about, but that is the part the op was talking about

 

it actualy sounds like ishy has the talent to see ta'varene like suin and logain.

[Byzantine279]

He is nuts, and more than that he is a liar.

[Suttree]

He is nuts, and more than that he is a liar.

 

Interview: Feb 26th, 2003

tarvalon.net Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to the Shadow in other lifetimes?

Robert Jordan

 

No he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Not sure what he means but we know they are tied together and spun out as the DO and Creator's champion. The majority of the statement is true so the blood part very well could be too. "Line" could possibly mean his thread in the pattern?. Also yeah he is pretty much crazy.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, it is not really a big plot hole I don't think, there are a number of ways it can be explained.

 

1. Batshit crazy - as mentioned

2. Not talking literally - line being the line of his soul or thread in the pattern.

3. Could be talking about Rand's bloodline (Janduin, Tigraine Luc etc...) not him as a direct descendant of Lews Therin.

4. Ishmael is not omnipotent, he could just have got it wrong. He thinks Rand blew the Horn at Falme, this could be another mistake.

5. He is lying to mess with his head.

6. One of LTT blood survived. It is left open, does it mean ANYONE with a single drop of his blood? Or does it mean his family directly related. I doubt they could eradicate the ENTIRE bloodline, it would mean thousands of people, even if they only have 1% of it. Edit: well I suppose, it WAS the breaking, millions died, so it is not too hard to see it happening, still a possibility.

7. Could be referring to "Dragon" blood. Which may not be an actual ancestorial line, but something that pops up every once in a while with "Dragon" capabilities.

[Randommer]

Yeah, it is not really a big plot hole I don't think, there are a number of ways it can be explained.

 

1. Batshit crazy - as mentioned

2. Not talking literally - line being the line of his soul or thread in the pattern.

3. Could be talking about Rand's bloodline (Janduin, Tigraine Luc etc...) not him as a direct descendant of Lews Therin.

4. Ishmael is not omnipotent, he could just have got it wrong. He thinks Rand blew the Horn at Falme, this could be another mistake.

5. He is lying to mess with his head.

6. One of LTT blood survived. It is left open, does it mean ANYONE with a single drop of his blood? Or does it mean his family directly related. I doubt they could eradicate the ENTIRE bloodline, it would mean thousands of people, even if they only have 1% of it. Edit: well I suppose, it WAS the breaking, millions died, so it is not too hard to see it happening, still a possibility.

7. Could be referring to "Dragon" blood. Which may not be an actual ancestorial line, but something that pops up every once in a while with "Dragon" capabilities.

 

1. Again, it just seems oddly specific for crazy talk.

2. I would agree, but he specifically says 'blood'.

3. Yeah I suppose he could be, but why if it's not relevant to anything (and the whole convo was about his connection to LT)?

4. Ishamael's never been that badly wrong about cosmology stuff (being an AoL genius). The HoH thing was simple misinformation.

5. Why lie? There's plenty of real and less random stuff to mess with his head. Again, Ishy rarely seemed to outright lie.

6. Yeah I have no ideas about that either.

7. Not exactly sure what you mean, but maybe.

 

Also, while browsing theoryland I found a quote where Terez asked Harriet McDougal (RJ's wife and editor) if the Andoran royal line were descended from Rand's Aiel ancestors, and she said she was pretty sure they were. Which means that for some reason Rand apparently got like a double-dose of the same bloodline, and also that he's...kinda inbred

[mandersen]

I think it's just assumed that "kinslayer" killed ALL his kin, not really proven factual history. Couldn't it be possible LTT had dalliances with some of the Aiel? For all his crying over Ilyena, we know from Rand that he's not particularly monogamous. maybe LTT he had an entire harem, like king David or Solomon. Rand's particular sense of morality is a product of his good upbringing, not something tied to the soul. Maybe "children of the dragon" is a more literal term than we thought.

[jsbrads]

Rand was 400~ years old first time around so plenty of time for a female partner to have have left with a child, etc.

 

Barid bel medar voiced something i thought of when i read the question. #7 the genetic variation, an active gene etc.

[Majsju]

I think it's just assumed that "kinslayer" killed ALL his kin, not really proven factual history. Couldn't it be possible LTT had dalliances with some of the Aiel? For all his crying over Ilyena, we know from Rand that he's not particularly monogamous. maybe LTT he had an entire harem, like king David or Solomon. Rand's particular sense of morality is a product of his good upbringing, not something tied to the soul. Maybe "children of the dragon" is a more literal term than we thought.

 

During the AOL, they were quite into population control, something very necessary when normal people lived to be 200, and strong channelers could get over 600 years old. I strongly doubt LTT would have been allowed to walk around leaving babies all over the place in such a society.

Also, one of Rands oldest visions in Rhuidean is one of his ancestors getting the news that LTT has led the strike on SG, and that the war is won. In that scene, i notice quite a lack of "Yay, my [insert relationship] totally rocks!".

[jsbrads]

I don't think population control was exercised against someone of Rand's talent