Sul'dam Severing

[csnyder]

Although removing the damane threat in the heat of battle would be much wiser (as the damane population is considerably less), strategically speaking removing the sul'dam's capability to channel (like with Siuan/Leane and Moghedien) and essentially freeing the damane (for TG use, sul'dam take a long time comparatively to de-brainwash) seems a better idea for the long run. It seems as if the a'dam is a link (but does the link include the sul'dam's strength?), but we have never seen the glow around the sul'dam making me believe that they would not be affected by the effects of severing whilst someone holds the OP effectively becoming easy to disable as the damane would, I assume, not channel without the proper prodding via the a'dam.

 

That being said, and a tad unrelated, I think that perhaps we have not given the damane proper credit where it is deserved. Alivia is the main source of this idea, but the Seanchan extreme of subordinance may have forced many to lower their eyes but exactly how far does this ardor go? With sul'dam, there is no doubt that, albeit brainwashed, their loyalties to their owners is not genuine but rather opportunistic with superficial (/brainwashed) loyalties to the Empire - however, with damane, I suspect an amazing spectrum of loyalty and that they never really become completely dehumanized perhaps even walk the thin-line of loyalty and punishment on a daily basis. The Aes Sedai damane have been quickly dehumanized, but this (with a rather optimistic view on AS fervor) is rather suspicious - you can threaten a person so far to obedience, but that internal revolt at your situation and the person doing such onto you is additionally hard to betray. Many damane may simply embracing the pain, much akin to the Aiel. Alivia, by all intents and purposes, should have had no hope of reintegration by behaviorist terms, yet she did (this may be related to the Consolidation lasting until two hundred or so years in the recent past. The fact she is older than the last years of the Consolidation may reveal she has interesting knowledge she has been hiding...).

[Maleshub]

Strategically speaking, there is never a shortage of Sul'dam. Many more women can be taught to channel than those born with the spark (damane). But in battle, killing the damane takes out the weapon as the Sul'dam will be useless then. But if you take out a Sul'dam in battle, another can replace her.

[csnyder]

I meant strategically speaking for TG - getting rid of hundred-year-old powerhouses seems a tad wasteful.

In any case, suppose Rand were to send in Asha'man to all of the sul'dam loci and sever them but leave the damane as is.

Since the sul'dam are learners, they truly would not be too harmed by that loss (or would they?) and the entire Seanchan channeling army would be left high and dry...

[XXX]

I do not think the Suldam can be severed as they do not channel.

[csnyder]

Not entirely true, I believe since they have the potential to channel they still have something to sever.

Through severing their potential (which I assume possible) they could no longer control the damane.

[jsbrads]

Not entirely true, I believe since they have the potential to channel they still have something to sever.

Through severing their potential (which I assume possible) they could no longer control the damane.

Not entirely true, I believe since they have the potential to channel they still have something to sever.

Through severing their potential (which I assume possible) they could no longer control the damane.

 

100% correct, the leash is a form of involuntary linking

[dEVabox]

Not entirely true, I believe since they have the potential to channel they still have something to sever.

 

Think so as well. When an Aes Sedai gentled men, they weren't always actively channeling at the time ie; Logan.

[Sharaman]

This is an old argument that has never been resolved. My $0.02 - Suldam who are on the edge of channeling and capable of being held by the a'dam can probably be severed.

[Maleshub]

An experienced Aes Sedai can detect the ability to channel in a woman who can learn. That is how Egwene ended up with the over 1000 novices currently training in the WT, including Sharina.

 

I believe that they can be severed from the source; but the side effects will not be as harsh as the severing of a woman who is already channeling. And there might not be any side effects at all aside from eliminating the ability to learn to channel. But this is just a personal opinion.

 

Another point to consider is that Rand imprisoned about a dozen Sul'dam and sent them to Elayne. And we have Renna, Seta, and Bethamin. I don't remember if all of them can be classified as "on the edge of channeling." But I would assume that few of them aren't (just based on probability). Yet all were held by the a'dam; right?

[Suttree]

Yeah this has come up a number of times over the years. If a suldam has not actively taken that conscious step to channel, I don't see how their can be anything to sever...

 

 

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim)

Question

 

Since sul'dam have abilities normally associated with channelers only, do they also slow?

Robert Jordan

 

No, not unless they actually begin to channel. Slowing is a function of actually channeling. If you have the ability to learn, and you never learn to channel, you are not going to slow, you will age at a normal fashion. Sul'dam are women who can learn and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

[MasterAblar]

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

[Suttree]

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

 

Severing the link would be good. Def don't want the adam destroyed and the damane just randomly lashing out with the power...

[Datakim]

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to create an a'dam "jammer". We know that its possible for two ter'angreal similar in function to interfere with each other, such as what happened when the mere vicinity of the dream ter'angreal caused the testing ter'angreal to malfunction. Could a complex ter'angreal be made, that interfered with the functioning of any nearby a'dam I wonder. Could Elayne and Aviendha do it, what with their skills with ter'angreal. We already know Elayne created one.

 

What would happen I wonder, if one person was collared with two a'dam simultaneously. If Elayne was captured, and had an extra a'dam collar without the leash in her pocket and put it on, would she die or would the two a'dam just both fry themselves.

[XXX]

Not entirely true, I believe since they have the potential to channel they still have something to sever.

 

Think so as well. When an Aes Sedai gentled men, they weren't always actively channeling at the time ie; Logan.

 

You do not have to be actively channeling when your are severed..Siuan for instance was stilled after she was shielded so she was not touching the source at the moment.

 

However as the Suldam never have touched the source on their own what is there to sever?

[csnyder]

I believe that they can be severed from the source; but the side effects will not be as harsh as the severing of a woman who is already channeling. And there might not be any side effects at all aside from eliminating the ability to learn to channel. But this is just a personal opinion.

 

Another point to consider is that Rand imprisoned about a dozen Sul'dam and sent them to Elayne. And we have Renna, Seta, and Bethamin. I don't remember if all of them can be classified as "on the edge of channeling." But I would assume that few of them aren't (just based on probability). Yet all were held by the a'dam; right?

 

That is exactly what I was expecting, too. That being said, I wonder (as per the RJ quote Suttree supplied) if the sul'dam would feel any effect granted they have yet to actually access the OP despite considerable vicarious use and viewing of it...I have forgotten as to who has control of reintegrating the captured sul'dam on a day-to-day basis in Andor, but I had assumed that not all had been test-leashed as proof to show all needed to be leashed. It is kind of funny many of the sul'dam readily accepting being leashed while a damane (more to come I am sure) easily accepted freedom and integration - shows who is the stronger of the two sides in my opinion.

 

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

 

In battle, this would be the preferred strategy as another sul'dam is probably in proximity to any sul'damless damane. Outside of battle, this strategy would not effectively turn damane or sul'dam to realize the futility of such a practice as I suspect a'dam are being mass-produced or were in the days of the first damane.

 

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

 

Severing the link would be good. Def don't want the adam destroyed and the damane just randomly lashing out with the power...

 

This is also a good point. Speaking of randomly lashing out, in TPoD A Time for Iron we see a damane lash out (causing quite a deal of damage) but the sul'dam protects her fervently making me believe this is not that rare of an event - honestly, this makes me believe some damane retain some will during their collaring.

[csnyder]

However as the Suldam never have touched the source on their own what is there to sever?

 

This is only opinion, but I suspect there must be some psychic construct/conduit between a soul and the OP that is there as much as the soul is there. Even if there aren't any active effects to be seen on the pre-channeling channeler (slowing), I still feel that this connection to the OP exists dormantly - and if it were to be severed then the victim would not only be unaware of it but also be completely useless as a sul'dam.

[Suttree]

I knew this was out there somewhere...

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

 

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

[Maleshub]

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

 

You're right in that they cannot be severed. But it is my perception that they can be held by the a'dam even if they haven't been Sul'dam for that long, right?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

 

You're right in that they cannot be severed. But it is my perception that they can be held by the a'dam even if they haven't been Sul'dam for that long, right?

 

I am not sure of the time frames of the Sul'dam being able to be leashed, but I think it works differently to severing.

 

Well, it has to, considering the quote supplied.

 

That begs the question, how does the a'dam actually control the channeler, since it doesn't need an active connection. If we take RJ by his exact wording here saying you have to have something to take away something", how then does the a'dam control something that "isn't there".

 

Since by this logic, they do not have the connection that can be cut until they have actively channelled and taken that step.

 

Then, the a'dam must use some other method of control, or is it simply that you can't sever them, but are able to control them with the a'dam from the connection to the source?

[Suttree]

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

 

You're right in that they cannot be severed. But it is my perception that they can be held by the a'dam even if they haven't been Sul'dam for that long, right?

 

They have to have been working with damane for a considerable amount of time...

 

 

Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

 

DragonCon Report - Emma (Paraphrased)

Emma

Then I couldn't hear any other questions and I went back in line. I could only ask him one question. It's a discussion we had on Theoryland a while ago. Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

(He managed to get my question after a few times repeating it. I'll leave that out). Frenzy, you were right. (I hope I remember your stand on this issue correctly.)

Robert Jordan

The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something. (Quotemasters, please find that quote for me.)

[Maleshub]

Thanks, Suttree. That puts things in perspective.

[csnyder]

Yup. Case closed!

[Byzantine279]

Do we know if it is possible for the a'dam to capture someone already in a link? (that is, is it strong enough to overwhelm a standard link). If not, just keep everyone in danger in a link at all times, and when you free damane get them into links...

[jsbrads]

If possible, destroying the adam, or rather severing the link with the collar, would be the best move in battle. Completely neutralizes the damane and the suldam can no longer control her.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to create an a'dam "jammer". We know that its possible for two ter'angreal similar in function to interfere with each other, such as what happened when the mere vicinity of the dream ter'angreal caused the testing ter'angreal to malfunction. Could a complex ter'angreal be made, that interfered with the functioning of any nearby a'dam I wonder. Could Elayne and Aviendha do it, what with their skills with ter'angreal. We already know Elayne created one.

 

What would happen I wonder, if one person was collared with two a'dam simultaneously. If Elayne was captured, and had an extra a'dam collar without the leash in her pocket and put it on, would she die or would the two a'dam just both fry themselves.

 

this is a great idea, but I'm not sure it would work, the second adam may not close, or it may close but be no different than closing on an inanimate object because there is nothing for it to clasp onto...

[jsbrads]

I knew this was out there somewhere...

 

Knife of Dreams tour San Jose, CA 28 October 2005 - Frenzy reporting

 

Frenzy: Can a person who hasn't actively channeled yet be severed or stilled?

RJ: (paraphrased) "No, you have to have something to take away something, so a person has to have an active connection to the Source to be able to have it cut."

 

Sul'dam who have not made the conscious effort to "step over" to the source can not be severed. They have the potential but it is not active yet. Case closed.

 

Not so fast. Since they operated a terangreal, and were active even thru proxy they may be able to be severed