Rand and Women

[Maleshub]

In the first WoT read that was done quickly, Aviendha was one of the characters that seemed difficult to read. She wasn't a straightforward, direct, and simple character.

 

A second reading of the series with Rand's women in the background as a point of interest, Aviendha's puzzle was intriguing. And so, I put down some thoughts on why, after starting this topic, I voted for her.

 

The reasons are without a doubt personal. And they are not intended to compare her with the rest of Rand's women. The intention that I've tried to stick with is to refrain from a comparative discussion. These are simply thoughts on why one reader likes reading about "Aviendha of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel."

 

The reasons I like reading Aviendha could very well be the ones that cause others to dislike reading her. And a personal interpretation of her actions could differ from that of others. So in all likelihood, there is more than one, if not many, interpretations or viewpoints on her actions.

 

And that is part of the beauty of WoT. Each reader can read and interpret the vast work and its many pieces and characters in different ways.

 

===================

 

What made Aviendha a complex character to read are the intense conflicts that are clear within her. These conflicts are compounded by Aviendha's harsh and "strange" cultural and moral backgrounds, to which she adheres strictly. So, I find myself trying to understand or interpret her actions and words from many angles and wondering about something she does: Is this motivated by ji'e'toh, love, temper, or something else?

 

Aviendha is Aiel and lives by ji'e'toh. And much of what is her is explained by ji'e'toh, and most likely the more strict interpretation adopted by Far Dareis Mai. It is her core, what she grew up as, and her identity, which she does not shed in the "wetlands."

 

There seems to be three main conflicts in Aviendha. One was the conflict in abandoning the spear for the shawl; Two is coming to terms with her love Rand and duty to Elayne; and three is the standard she sets herself for entering a full relationship with Rand.

 

Despite what seems to be an early resolution of the first conflict, Aviendha's Far Dareis Mai background carries with her significantly during her apprenticeship. She doesn't overcome the remnants of Far Dareis Mai till she confronts the Wise Ones in TGS and tells them that she is either a one of them or not. At that stage she seems to have grown into a woman relying on strength of mind and heart as opposed to strength of steel.

 

The second conflict is coming to terms with accepting her love for Rand while at the same time fulfilling her duty to Elayne.

 

Aviendha starts out as a new friend to 3 "Aes Sedai", Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve. She meets them in Cairhien when they heal Dailin, her cousin. She is indebted to them for saving Dailin's life. And despite playing a role in saving them from brigands, she seems to continue repaying this debt and developing her friendship in Tear.

 

Aviendha's stay in Tear is centered around her 3 friends, with almost no contact with Rand. He doesn't remember her guarding his chambers in the Stone with other Maidens. Her initial knowledge and perception of Rand is based on what she heard from her three friends and Moiraine. She witnessed Elayne's romance with Rand in the Stone; and took her side when it came to blaming him for "mistreating" Elayne.

 

She leaves Tear feeling somewhat neutral about Rand. After she finds the portal stone in TSR: Out of the Stone (22), Rand notices her watching him with a flat, hard expression.

 

 

"You don’t' like me," he said. "Why?"

"Like you?" she said. "You may be He Who Comes With the Dawn, a man of destiny. Who can like or dislike such? Besides, you walk free, a wetlander despite your face, yet going to Rhuidean for honor, while I …"

"While you what?"

Instead of answering, the Aiel woman squatted easily with her short spears across her knees. "You have treated Elayne badly. I would not care, but Elayne is near sister to Egwene, who is my friend. Yet Egwene likes you still, so for her sake I will try."

 

Will she try to like him because she's already started to think about him emotionally? Or will she try to like him only because Egwene still likes him? In any case, she doesn't hate him for his mistreatment of Elayne.

 

Then she enters the Rhuidean rings and comes out having seen her future, falling in love with Rand, and her link and destiny with him.

 

TSR: He Who Comes With the Dawn (34)

 

In the mid afternoon, he finally spotted a figure climbing the mountain, scrambling up wearily. Aviendha. Mat had been right; she was bare as she was born. And showing some effects of the sun, too; Aiel or not; it was only her hands and face that were sun-darkened; and the rest of her looked decidedly red. He was glad to see her. She disliked him; but only because she thought he had mistreated Elayne. The simplest of motives. Not for prophecy or doom, not for the Dragons on his arms or because he was the Dragon Reborn. For a simple human reason. He almost looked forward to those cool, challenging stares.

 

When she saw him, she froze; and there was nothing cool in her blue-green eyes. Her gaze made the sun seem cold; he should have been burned to ash on the spot.

 

"Uh … Rand?" Mat said quietly. "I don't think I would turn my back on her if I were you."

 

A tire sigh escaped him. Of course. If she had been into those glass columns, she knew. Bair, Melaine, and the others had all had years to grow used to it. For Aviendha, it was a fresh wound with no scab. No wonder she hates me now.

 

The Wise Ones scurried out to meet Aviehndha, hurrying her away into another tent. The next time Rand saw her she wore a bulky brown skirt and a loose white blouse, with a shawl looped around her arms. She did not look happy about the clothes. She saw him watching; and the fury on her face – the sheer animal rage – was enough to make him turn away.

 

For all the ji'e'toh instilled in her, she knew that she would love the man that her friend's "near sister" loved. It may have seemed like betrayal to her. And so, she started trying to resist Rand by showing him baleful expressions; by telling him and others that she hates him; and by making herself as unpleasant as possible around him. While inside, her emotions conflicted with one another: a destiny to fall in love with the man and the duty to a friend's near sister.

 

In TSR, Sharp Lessons (35), the Bair tells Aviendha to stay close to Rand from the moment he wakes up to the time he goes to sleep. Her reaction:

 

Aviendha grew stiffer by the word. When Bair finished, she spat, "I will not!" Dead silence fell, and every eye swung to her, but she stared back defiantly.

.

.

"Aviendha," Egwene said gently, "no one is asking you to betray Elayne, only to talk to him." If anything, the former Maiden of the Spear looked even more eager to find herself a weapon.

.

.

"I do not like him!" Aviendha burst out. "I hate him! Hate him!" Had Egwene not known better, she would have th ought her close to tears. The words shocked her, though; surely Aviendha could not mean it.

.

.

"Egwene leaned over to put a hand on Aviendha's shoulder. "You've told me we are near-sisters; and I think we are. Will you do it for me? Think of it as looking after him for Elayne. You like her too; I know. You can tell him she says she meant what she said in her letters. He will like hearing that."

 

Aviendha's face spasmed. "I will do it," she said, slumping. "I will watch him for Elayne, for Elayne."

 

Maybe it was part of her resistance to becoming a Wise One that she hated what she saw as her destiny in Rhuidean's rings. And maybe it was her debt to her friend's near sister and the sense of betrayal that would accompany admitting to loving Rand. Maybe it was the shock of learning that her destiny was to love a "wetlander." And maybe it was, like Amys said later, the effect of being raised in ca'din'sor and not in skirts, not knowing how to deal with this destiny of love.

 

In the end, Aviendha decided that her initial course of action with Rand is to remind him of Elayne and to be as unpleasant and sulky as possible around him. And that provided the background for some very interesting scenes .........

[Maleshub]

Continuing my thoughts on Aviendha ....

 

The Aiel's relationship to Rand is part of the background of Aviendha's relationship with him. Rand goes as far as thinking that Aviendha is trying to make him Aiel. Was she really trying to make him Aiel?

 

To start off, it is my impression that the Aiel are the only nation that was systematically and whole-heartedly searching for He Who Comes With the Dawn, their Car'a'Carn, who is also the Dragon Reborn. They sent hundreds of Aiel to scout west of the Dragonwall to look for signs of Rand's coming. To put this in perspective, we look at the lands west of the Dragonwall and see that there was no systematic effort by any institution, kingdom, or group to read the signs and search for the Dragon.

 

The White Tower was crumbling from within after decades of Black Ajah infiltration and covert destruction from within. The White Tower's contributions to the Dragon over the past two decades were more individual efforts than institutional. Gitara Morsoe set in motion the events that led to the Dragon's rebirth (Tigraine and Luc sent to seek their destiny); and proclaimed his birth with her last breath.

 

The Amyrlin at the time, Tamra, secretly ordered sisters she trusted with searching for the Dragon. The institution itself was not in shape to do so. Fate would have two Accepted present during Gitara's prophecy that the Dragon was reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount. And when Tamra was tortured by the Black Ajah to confess the names of the sisters who she ordered to search, she was able to hide the names of the2 Accepted. All the sisters were killed; and only Moiraine and Siuan survived to continue.

 

All kingdoms west of the Dragonwall seemed to be oblivious to the Dragon's rebirth; as they followed the White Tower's lead on such matters.

 

The Aiel were the "People of the Dragon." Their Wise Ones and clan chiefs knew their past, and their future destiny. The Three-fold Land and Rhuidean have been shaping them for generations for their duty and destiny with the Dragon. It was part of their identity, despite the fact that such knowledge was limited to several thousand of the few million Aiel (probably no more than 5 million total) living in the world.

 

In TSR (34: He Who Comes With the Dawn): Right after Rand exited Rhuidean, he asked Melaine:

 

 

"Why do you want me to live? You know what that Aes Sedai said in front of Rhuidean. I will destroy you. Why aren't you plotting with Couladin to kill me?" … Instead of answering, she glared at him and left the tent.

 

It was Bair who spoke. "Everyone thinks they know the Prophecy of Rhuidean. But what they know is what Wise Ones and clan chiefs have told them for generations. Not lies, but not the whole truth. The truth might break the strongest man."

 

"What is the whole truth?" Rand insisted.

 

She glanced at Mat, then said, "In this case, the whole truth, the truth known only to Wise Ones and clan chiefs before this, is that you are our doom. Our doom, and our salvation. Without you, no one of our people will live beyond the Last Battle; perhaps not even till the Last Battle. That is prophecy, and truth. With you … 'He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.' A hard prophecy, but this has never been a gentle land." She met his gaze without flinching. A hard land, and a hard woman.

 

In the next chapter, "Sharp Lessons," The Wise Ones are discussing Rand with Moiraine and Egwene. This gives some insight on what the Aiel want with Rand. The White Tower wanted to control and guide him. The Tairins wanted to be rid of him; the Cairhien eventually wanted to be rid of him as so did the Andorans. For their part, here is what the Aiel wanted.

 

 

"We must discuss what to do about Rand al'Thor," Bair said when Amys was seated, too.

 

"Do about him?" Egwene said, alarmed. "He has the signs. He is the one you have been looking for."

 

"He is the one, "Melaine said grimly, brushing long strands of red-gold hair from her damp face, "We must try to see that as many of our people as possible survive his coming."

 

"Just as importantly," Seana said, "we must assure that he survives to fulfill the rest of the prophecy." Melaine glared at her, and seana added ina patient tone, "Else none of us will survive."

.

.

Amys shook her head. " … Rand al'Thor sleeps in the Jindo tents, with a hundred men awake to see he wakes as well. But men often see things differently than we. Rhuarc will follow him, perhaps oppose him in decisions he thinks are wrong, but he will not try to guide him."

 

"Do you think he needs guiding?" Moiraine arched an eyebrow at that, but Egwene ignored it. "He has done what he had to without guidance so far."

 

"Rand al'Thor does not know our ways," Amys replied.

 

"There are a hundred mistakes he could make to turn a chief of clan against him, to make them see a wetlander instead of He Who Comes With the Dawn. My husband is a good man and a fine chief; but he is no peace-talker, trained to guide angry men to ground their spears. We must have someone close to Rand al'Thor who can whisper in his ear when he seems ready to step wrongly." ….

 

"And we must watch him, "Melaine put in sharply. "We must have some idea of what he means to do before he does it. The fulfillment of the Prophecy of Rhuidean has begun. It cannot be halted short of its end, one way or another. But I mean to see that as many of our people survive as is possible. How that can be managed depends on what Rand al'Thor intends."

 

To the Aiel, Rand was their doom and their salvation. He would spill their blood like water on sand … the death of hundreds of thousands, if not millions. And by him also, their survival – a remnant of a remnant – is ensured. A very hard prophecy that requires a very hard people to accept and march towards without hesitation.

 

It meant that none knew if they or their loved ones or children would live to see the next year or two. They were counting their days as a mighty nation. All of this set in motion by Rand's coming.

 

What did they want to do about him? They want to:

 

- Work towards having as many as possible survive of the Aiel (saving as many lives as possible).

- Work towards Rand's survival to make sure he fulfills the rest of his prophecies.

- Make sure he doesn't make mistakes that turn the Aiel against him since he is ignorant of their ways.

 

They have surrendered to him as much as can be expected; and they want to help him fulfill his destiny and theirs.

 

The Aiel are the only nation to whole-heartedly accept Rand for what he is and believe in him. They followed him to their graves willingly and without hindering him. They accepted everything he did against their long-standing customs and sacrificed their blood willingly and devotedly to pave his path towards the Last Battle. There were the Shaido and the bleakness; but the majority of the Aiel remained faithful to him.

 

An example that is wonderful to think about is Far Dareis Mai. The Maidens were the same from the moment he chose them to carry his honor to his darkest hour when the Dark One almost had him. They never wavered or questioned their duty to him; even when people who loved him found it hard to stay around him and started drifting away from him.

 

Aviendha was one of the "People of the Dragon," very hard and truly dedicated to him; And she loved him as a man, for who he was, not what he was.

[RandA lThor]

Aviendha, she is awesome, can fight really well without the One Power and she has a lot of mixture between the Aiel and the wetlanders.

[Saluki]

Rand has spent some time in darkness.

 

I think Mierin and Dark Rand would have done well together. Yes indeed.

[Asmod]

To be honest I can't stand Min. For much of the series theres's barely a seen where she's not hanging out of Rands coat sleeve. I know she only wants the best for him but jeez she'd drive me nuts if I was Rand

Aviendha on the other hand is my favourite as even though she's in love with Rand with the exception of the gateway scene she doesnt get involved with Rand until she feels she is strong enough plus I get the feeling she doesn't like Min (finger dripping bucket scene with her and Min)

Elayne well theres not really much of a relationship going on there in my opinion

[avernite]

I'd go with Min... though I agree she seemed more like a stuffed doll for much of her initial time with Rand she seems to be getting a bit better lately. but maybe that's because we have a handful of scenes where her doing 'research' is actually exposed, while before, with our Rand-centric views, we didn't notice the times she was off doing something.

 

She also paid for the privilege quite enough; Aviendha admittedly died by his side, but she got better without remembering. Elayne seems to suffer in her own plans/plots/destiny, so Min's the only one who outright suffered for wanting to be with Rand, so she deserves something for that IMO.

 

Plus she's the only one *I* might get along with.

[Maleshub]

Rand's relationship with Aviendha is the best written of the three. It is more complex than the other two. And Aviendha in her time with Rand was the only one that fought with him. She saved his life at least once; and he saved hers many times. They are two strong-willed, stubborn birds in love. Rand is traumatized by seeing her dead face in Caemlyn; and she suffered for her toh to Elayne and then for refusing to enter the relationship as an inferior. Her toh to Elayne might be silly; but I highly respect the later. She doesn't "relegate" herself and her identity in her relationship with him. That's the type of woman a man can enter a relationship with

[Halleck]

I picked Aviendah because of how she started out hating him and over time admitted that she loved him. She was never exactly sweet, but I like that about her. She is a prickly woman and she isn't going to change that about herself. Plus I think it is more amusing to read about two characters constantly insulting each other than it is to read about Rand and Min always loving each other, both physically and emotionally.

 

Elayne doesn't even have a relationship with her. Poor kids are going to grow up in a broken household with parents that don't even know each other. If he lives. If she lives too I suppose.

[Aulduron]

I chose Aviendha, but Min is real close. Min is more sane and stable, but Aviendha makes my blood boil.

[*Saidin*]

Min's life revolves around Rand. Rand is the single most important thing to her. If given a choice between min's loyalty, Elayne's beauty and power and Avi's power and beauty i'd choose Min every time. Besides, no man wants to hear what a fool he is every five minutes, regardless if it's true or not.

[avernite]

Min's life revolves around Rand. Rand is the single most important thing to her. If given a choice between min's loyalty, Elayne's beauty and power and Avi's power and beauty i'd choose Min every time. Besides, no man wants to hear what a fool he is every five minutes, regardless if it's true or not.

 

Indeed, woolhead sounds much cuter ;)

[Maleshub]

Meirin has more votes than Elayne! Never thought that would be the case at the start of the thread.

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

I voted Min just for the fact that she was the only one that didn't make Rand feel out of place. Like he did with Elayne cause she was a Bloody Princess/Queen and Avi because she was Aiel with a whole new way of life. Truthfully though i think Rand will be Rand and find a way to be with all 3. Rand will want to be with Elayne because he is the father of her unborn children. And Avi see's her future and get's prego by Rand. But that is just how i see it.

 

 

I figured Min would be the popular vote, so I went with Aviendha. Min and Rand's relationship seems fairly normal and natural, and it's probably the most healthy one. However, Min admits to herself that her "type" is an older, more worldly man. Would she be in love with him under "normal" circumstances?

 

Min does like the older men but isn't rand now in someway older if not in age but in experience?

[Vardar]

I'm going with Aviendha, because while all Rand's women are "fiesty" just how I like them, I like the added extra thrill with Avi. I mean, not knowing if you're going to wake up with a knife in your throat? Hotness.

 

Min is too submissive with Rand for my tastes, I mean she puts on a good facade, but after getting him in the sheets, she admits to herself she's at his beck and call.

[Duneflayer]

Elayne, cause the twins need a daddy. :D

 

(Dives for cover)

[Sasha Grayes]

for the long haul marriage type

lol that's not Min. Min is the girlfriend not the wife. Clingy and trying her best to fit her life on the guy. Aviendha is the wife. The for better or for worse attitude of the bunch. But I love Elayne the most. She is the girl you meet on a Saturday night. and most likely the most real of the bunch.

[DeviantDemon]

Min, because she is the only one that I have not wanted to slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth.

[Maleshub]

Min, because she is the only one that I have not wanted to slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth.

 

Do you think that Min is the only one who would let you slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth

[Guest AimeeChristine]

I like Min for Rand the best I feel that Avienda could also be considered as an ex. I mean they had a great time together.. a relationship... but as the story progressed he grew with Min and Avienda was needed elsewhere. Also when he was in Arad Doman he barely even acknowledges Avienda meanwhile Min is staying with him in his rooms. I know Avienda used to sleep in the same tent and they had a night together but Min and Rand have had a longer relationship. I like min's spunk, personality, and determination to help Rand to reseal the prison. Elayne and Rand seemed to have a fling but not much more. Egwene was an old crush and Lanfear was from Lew's Therins memories. So I voted for Min. Maybe I'll change my mind after rereading the series but probably not.

[ASecondChance]

rMin, because she is the only one who seems to really care about helping Rand, and stands by him no matter what. She's pretty damn smart too.

[DeviantDemon]

Min, because she is the only one that I have not wanted to slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth.

 

Do you think that Min is the only one who would let you slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth

Umm, what?

[Maleshub]

Min, because she is the only one that I have not wanted to slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth.

 

Do you think that Min is the only one who would let you slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth

Umm, what?

 

Why would you feel the need to slap the hell out of a woman every other time she opens her mouth?

[DeviantDemon]

Min, because she is the only one that I have not wanted to slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth.

 

Do you think that Min is the only one who would let you slap the hell out of every other time she opens her mouth

Umm, what?

 

Why would you feel the need to slap the hell out of a woman every other time she opens her mouth?

 

First of all I said want, not need. There is a difference. And the reason I want to is because half the stuff they say ticks me off for one reason or another. Just to clarify, the fact that I want to doesn't mean that I actually would, even if I was given the opportunity.

[Maleshub]

If I recall correctly, the only face-slapping in WoT targets Perrin (by Faile), Rand (by Cadsuane), and Mat (by Joline). Funny how being ta'veren works for that trio!

[condonmc]

If I recall correctly, the only face-slapping in WoT targets Perrin (by Faile), Rand (by Cadsuane), and Mat (by Joline). Funny how being ta'veren works for that trio!

smiles remembering perrins slap, intense hatred feeling remembering rands slap, and chuckles remembering mats slap..........[ doesnt brigette slap somone, cant remember...]