Is ever victorious army a myth?

[Barid Bel Medar]

So Character A saying to Character B "holy crap, we are getting smashed by the Seanchan, I, one of the 5 Great Generals did everything in my power to stop them, but I failed" doesn't count?

 

(Facetious, yes, but people are ignoring the fact that this is EXACTLY what happened with Ituralde)

 

We are constantly being told that the Seanchan have adapted quickly. And they keep advancing. Nobody has been able to stop them. All battles where they have lost has not hurt their efforts. They continue to gain land.

 

Not seeing it on-screen is no vaild argument I am afraid. Just because we don't see it happen, does not make the fact any less true that, yes, it is happening.

 

 

Now, this is the extent of what I am saying.

 

I am not trying to say that Avi's vision will come true. In fact, I firmly believe that it will not come true.

 

The fact is, the Seanchan are CAPABLE of doing what is suggested. Which is the debate currently.

 

But, to adress the EVA comments. I agree with those debating against Seanchan power. Yes, the title is an exaggeration. No, theoretically, they are not invincible, they could lose if the right tactics were used against them. However, saying that the Seanchan cannot conquer the Westlands is false. They do have the power and their armies are good enough.

[SuperFade]

So Character A saying to Character B "holy shit, we are getting smashed by the Seanchan, I, one of the 5 Great Generals did everything in my power to stop them, but I failed" doesn't count?

 

(Facetious, yes, but people are ignoring the fact that this is EXACTLY what happened with Ituralde)

 

No, I mean the text actually showing us that happening. Show us that the Seanchan can adapt. Show it happening in detail rather than just claiming it with no context.

 

Not seeing it on-screen is no vaild argument I am afraid. Just because we don't see it happen, does not make the fact any less true that, yes, it is happening.

 

Really? With the extreme emphasis users on this forum give to quotes and textual evidence I find this assertion surprising. So it's okay to tell and not show as long as it's related to the Seanchan?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not seeing it on-screen is no vaild argument I am afraid. Just because we don't see it happen, does not make the fact any less true that, yes, it is happening.

 

Really? With the extreme emphasis users on this forum give to quotes and textual evidence I find this assertion surprising. So it's okay to tell and not show as long as it's related to the Seanchan?

 

This is not a valid comparison. It IS in the text. Just look at the textual evidence we have seen from the Seanchan expansion.

 

So are you now going to tell me that Moridin wasn't actually transmigrated? Because, by your logic, because we did not see the event onscreen, it did not happen.

 

THere is a CLEAR difference between no evidence and the evidence presented 3rd person, as it were. We SEE the effects of the people saying the Seanchan are winning, because...they are.

 

The evidence has been supplied in abundance by various posts in this thread. Yet, I have not seen one actual piece of textual evidence supporting the theory that the Seanchan are getting beaten.

[XXX]

I have read it a number of times, that is just about my favorite section in the series. I addressed Rand's success earlier but the advance had stalled. You refuse to touch upon the one pertinent piece of information Bashere gives us that they have targeted Rand and are advancing. In other words they had adapted exactly like we said. You keep repeating the same information while dodging the main point Ares brought up ages ago.

 

But they hadn't adapted.

Rand's forces advanced tactics were highly dependent on channeling. When channeling become unreliable, their advanced tactics went out the window and the playing field was leveled.

There was no adapting. Saidin stalled them, not the Seanchan.

 

Like I said, during the entire 6 days of fighting, the Seanchan did not win a single engagement.

 

Both sides had to deal with the channeling problems, the Seanchan changed their tactics and adapted. Amazing that you would post yet again while still dodging the one pertinent fact that the Seanchan were advancing on Rand! Over a hundered damane and 15000 troops close enough to see all closing in on Rand. That is not a full retreat by any stretch of the imagination. Seriously mate stop dodging the issue. Rand ignored Bashere's warning that the Seanchan had adpated tactics and were closing in. It doesn't matter how many engagements they lost, they would have taken down Rand(won the battle) if not for Callandor.

 

However they close in..with travelling available to Rand and his men they would never have caught and beaten Rand's forces. Travelling is a huge advantage.

[TootThatHorn]

even more amazing to me, how many trollocs and what not are there? someone mentioned the farmland that would be needed to feed all these armies, especially in a world where all the crops are failing, but how bout feeding all the shadowspawn that are in the blight? theres hundreds of thousands up there and anything that grows up there is bad, and besides that, the trollocs eat humans they get from raids, and a trolloc has got to take a lot to feed. and from what i can tell, it never seems like there is an aweful lot of borderlanders to go around to feed them

[Suttree]

even more amazing to me, how many trollocs and what not are there? someone mentioned the farmland that would be needed to feed all these armies, especially in a world where all the crops are failing, but how bout feeding all the shadowspawn that are in the blight? theres hundreds of thousands up there and anything that grows up there is bad, and besides that, the trollocs eat humans they get from raids, and a trolloc has got to take a lot to feed. and from what i can tell, it never seems like there is an aweful lot of borderlanders to go around to feed them

 

Interview: Jan 6th, 2004

USA Today Interview (Verbatim)

Holland

 

What do Trollocs eat and how do they get enough food in the Blight to sustain all those Trollocs?

Robert Jordan

 

Trollocs eat almost anything, including other Trollocs. They are omnivores with a tendency toward being carnivores.

 

However they close in..with travelling available to Rand and his men they would never have caught and beaten Rand's forces. Travelling is a huge advantage.

 

Any number of things could go wrong in that scenario. Why risk it? It was a blunder and Bashere knew it.

[Mr Ares]

The quotes I've posted say otherwise. Unless you have actual evidence to support your point, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar. He then contemplates how the Seanchan have suffered their second devastating defeat in these lands and that he will have to apologize to Suroth and the Empress for it.

 

Abaldar Yulan wept, grateful for the downpour that hid the tears on his cheeks. Someone would have to give the order. Eventually someone would have to apologize to the Empress, might she live forever, and maybe to Suroth sooner. Those were not why he wept, though, nor even for the dead comrade. Roughly ripping a sleeve from his coat, he laid it across Miraj's staring eyes so the rain would not fall in them.

"Send the orders for retreat," Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one that wept.

Rand might of been leaving by that point but the damage was done.

Rand's forces kicked their asses for almost the entire country of Altara, had them backed up almost on top of Ebou Dar itself and were only slowed/stopped in the end by Saidin failing.

This is quite simply incorrect Finnsss. Mr Ares has the right of it. Your quote provided is after Rand used Callandor while the one Ares provides is before. The Seanchan were not retreating, they were adapting and closing in and Bashere counseled pulling out. It was only after Rand used Callandor slaughtering his own men(and didn't realize how much damage he actually did) that both sides thought they lost.

 

It is not incorrect.

They pushed the Seanchan back hundreds of miles right to Ebou Dar itself. Again, I fail to see how the enormity of this is not being comprehended?

The only thing that allowed the Seanchan to even start coming close to holding their own was the wildness of Saidin.

At that point is was just as likely for an Asha'man or Rand to kill his own troops with the power than to kill Seanchan.

After the first 5 days of battle, Rand's forces had only suffered a mere 300 causalities while capturing 23 sul'dam, 2 damane and killed god knows how many soldiers to account for that many sul'dam/damane prisoners.

At this point, they had the Seanchan in full retreat already and some of Rand's commanders suggested that they take the clear victory and withdraw but Rand wanted to push them back into the sea like at Falme.

Again, the only reason he didn't accomplish this was due to Saidin failing.

Rand wasn't the first to lose control of Saidin and kill his own men, it had already happened.

It was also happening to the damane but their channeling was not as vital to the Seanchan tactics as it is for Rand's forces tactics.

 

Also, any reference to when Rand was attacked and injured is pure crap. That was clearly set up and allowed by Weiramon.

 

The final battle viewed properly, would be considered a draw but every battle up to that point for hundreds of miles were the Seanchan clearly and irrevocably getting their asses kicked!

What you are saying flies flat in the face of what the text says. The Seanchan might have been pushed back, but at the end they were not in full retreat, they were preparing to advance. Rand refuses to accept that and draws Callandor. The devastation to both armies leaves both sides claiming defeat. Rand was nowhere near being able to push the Seanchan back into the sea. By the end, Bashere's forces alone had taken 500 casualties - half his force - and two Soldiers, and he doubted that Semaradrid, Weiramon and Gregorin were in much better condition. Yes, they had given the Seanchan a bloody nose, pushed them back, and accomplished the mission (protecting Illian). This was at great cost, and the forces available were insufficient to Rand's new mission. They had advanced as far as they could. They did not have Altara under siege. They had pushed the Seanchan back from the Illian border. They could not advance any further. The text does not support your interpretation of events.

[Finnssss22]

I see....

So for 5 straight days, Rand forces kicked the living hell out of the Seanchan across close to 300 miles. Then, magically, on the 6th day, which of course just so happens to be the day that they arrive in the channeling wild zone, that the Seanchan, overnight, suddenly figure out how to fight them?

It was because the Seanchan figured it all out and not because the superior tactics Rand's forces were afforded through traveling became unreliable?

Sorry but 1+1=2 in my book.

 

Agree to disagree.

[Mr Ares]

I see....

So for 5 straight days, Rand forces kicked the living hell out of the Seanchan across close to 300 miles. Then, magically, on the 6th day, which of course just so happens to be the day that they arrive in the channeling wild zone, that the Seanchan, overnight, suddenly figure out how to fight them?

It was because the Seanchan figured it all out and not because the superior tactics Rand's forces were afforded through traveling became unreliable?

Sorry but 1+1=2 in my book.

 

Agree to disagree.

Across the course of the campaign, Rand's forces fought the Seanchan but had to deal with the numerous reinforcements the Seanchan could bring to the table. The channeling problem existed for both sides, and is therefore a non-factor in the equation. It was not a brutal one sided arse kicking, no matter that you try to pretend it was - the Seanchan fought hard and cost Rand a lot of people. He had the advantage of surprise at first, hence getting off to a good start. He also had greater mobility, thanks to Traveling (which attrition of Asha'man would wear away at anyway), and the backing of one of the Great Captains. The Seanchan had numbers. Rand's forces took increasingly heavy losses, faced an increasingly hard fight, and eventually were faced with an enemy who was not retreating, but advancing in force. What you suggest is in no way supported by the text. You are wrong. That is a matter of fact, not interpretation.

[Finnssss22]

I see....

So for 5 straight days, Rand forces kicked the living hell out of the Seanchan across close to 300 miles. Then, magically, on the 6th day, which of course just so happens to be the day that they arrive in the channeling wild zone, that the Seanchan, overnight, suddenly figure out how to fight them?

It was because the Seanchan figured it all out and not because the superior tactics Rand's forces were afforded through traveling became unreliable?

Sorry but 1+1=2 in my book.

 

Agree to disagree.

Across the course of the campaign, Rand's forces fought the Seanchan but had to deal with the numerous reinforcements the Seanchan could bring to the table. The channeling problem existed for both sides, and is therefore a non-factor in the equation. It was not a brutal one sided arse kicking, no matter that you try to pretend it was - the Seanchan fought hard and cost Rand a lot of people. He had the advantage of surprise at first, hence getting off to a good start. He also had greater mobility, thanks to Traveling (which attrition of Asha'man would wear away at anyway), and the backing of one of the Great Captains. The Seanchan had numbers. Rand's forces took increasingly heavy losses, faced an increasingly hard fight, and eventually were faced with an enemy who was not retreating, but advancing in force. What you suggest is in no way supported by the text. You are wrong. That is a matter of fact, not interpretation.

 

#1) FACT: After 5 days and almost 300 miles gained, Rand's forces had suffered a grand total of 300 casualties out of 6000. Captured 23 sul'dam, 2 damane and, as I said earlier, killed god knows how many soldiers to account for that many sul'dam/damane. The Seanchan were in full retreat at the end of chapter 23. That my friend, was definitely an ass kicking.

 

#2) The loss of channeling reliably was NOT an even disadvantage for each force, not even close. Rand's forces were heavily dependent on it for almost every aspect of their movement, tactics, wards and healing where the damane are used as nothing more than horse drawn weapons. The damane couldn't travel, had little to no knowledge of wards and healing.

Saying that the loss of channeling were equally felt by both sides is absolutely ridiculous.

 

#3) Even on the 6th day (again, once they entered the wild zone) when Rand's forces were heavily outnumbered and starting to feel greater losses, those losses still only totaled 1/3 or 2000 men and 2 asha'man lost. And out of those losses, how many were attributed to Weiramon's allowed ambush and Adley's losing control of Saidin?

 

Hell, the name of chapter 24 alone should of given away what was going on "A time for Iron". Iron/number of soldies being the one thing Rand's forces were short on compared to the Seanchan.

 

After the 5th day, Rand's forces could of left with a decisive victory. Instead, on the 6th day, against counsel, he pushed the Seanchan into a corner and lost his greatest advantage upon entering the wild zone.

 

Either way, at the end of the day for the Seanchan it was a long series of losses followed finally by a draw. That is the fact of the matter.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan were in full retreat at the end of chapter 23. That my friend, was definitely an ass kicking.

 

Fact #1: We know Rand had the Seanchan forces "falling back" but after all this time and multiple posts Finnsss continues to dodge the one quote that actually matters. Bashere tells us that far from a "full retreat"(one that wasn't sounded until the end of Ch. 24 btw) the Seanchan forces were within site and closing in on Rand en force. There is no agree to disagree. Those are facts and you mate are misrepresenting them.

[Finnssss22]

The Seanchan were in full retreat at the end of chapter 23. That my friend, was definitely an ass kicking.

 

Fact #1: We know Rand had the Seanchan forces "falling back" but after all this time and multiple posts Finnsss continues to dodge the one quote that actually matters. Bashere tells us that far from a "full retreat"(one that wasn't sounded until the end of Ch. 24 btw) the Seanchan forces were within site and closing in on Rand en force. There is no agree to disagree. Those are facts and you mate are misrepresenting them.

 

That wasn't until right at the end of chapter 24, when they had backed the Seanchan up almost on top of Ebou Dar itself.

 

I have never debated the fact that Rand's forces couldn't survive against the Seanchan's in a conventional fight. All I have said is that up and till they arrived in the wild zone, they weren't fighting conventionally and the idea that the Seanchan magically adapted overnight is both ridiculous and improbable.

There was no adapting by the Seanchan, they simply had their backs against the wall and Rand had lost his overwhelming and superior advantages afforded through their advanced channeling.

 

There is simply no question in my mind that the channeling difficulties along with Rand's unbalanced and inexperienced decisions leading to over-extension did more to stop Rand than the Seanchan were capable of doing.

 

This is like the "Perrin had nothing to do with freeing Rand in LoC" argument all over again. Looking at the very end result without affording enough attention to the process and factors leading up to it.

I have broken down the battles from start to finish while all you guys have done is keep repeating the very last moments.

 

Let me be clear...if Rand had of listened to his advisers after the 5th day, they would of left Altara with a great victory leaving the Seanchan backed up to Ebou Dar. Instead they over-extended and ended up with a draw.

THAT is a fact!

[Suttree]

This is like the "Perrin had nothing to do with freeing Rand in LoC" argument all over again. Looking at the very end result without affording enough attention to the process and factors leading up to it.

I have broken down the battles from start to finish while all you guys have done is keep repeating the very last moments.

 

Let me be clear...if Rand had of listened to his advisers after the 5th day, they would of left Altara with a great victory leaving the Seanchan backed up to Ebou Dar. Instead they over-extended and ended up with a draw.

THAT is a fact!

 

Actually we disproved your initial claim of...

 

Rand's forces had beaten the Seanchan back, badly in fact and they were in full retreat.

 

Then Mr Ares went on to break the battle in more detail than you have done...including the most pertinent end part, which you continue to totally ignore. We have admitted from the start that Rand forced the Seanchan back(with significant casualties on both sides) but in the end the Seanchan force adapted better to the strategy and conditions(channeling issues that affected both) while Rand did not. He didn't listen to Bashere and as a result had a large force within site quickly closing in on his position. To say the Seanchan had their backs against the wall as if they were at the city limits is absurd.

 

Additionally it's funny how much you have been forced to evolve your take from early posts when you said...

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar.

[Maleshub]

One of the main reasons why the Seanchan were able to adapt tactics is the information they got from Suroth, through Semirhage (presumably) that Rand had no more than 6K troops and 50 Ashaman Traveling all over the place. The Seanchan commander devised a defensive plan to counter a small force attacking a much larger force. Prior to that piece of information they thought they were fighting 40-50K troops all over the place.

 

Aside from the argument above, I think that any decent commander would have adapted if he had the right information.

 

But when we look at Mat's 10 to 12 - day attrition campaign against the Seanchan, we see a commander without Traveling or Channeling relying on conventional military tactics to wreck havoc against his enemy and achieve his objective. I wish we had more PoV's from that campaign including Tuon's impressions. That would have been nice to read.

[Finnssss22]

Actually we disproved your initial claim of...

 

Rand's forces had beaten the Seanchan back, badly in fact and they were in full retreat.

 

Then Mr Ares went on to break the battle in more detail than you have done...including the most pertinent end part, which you continue to totally ignore. We have admitted from the start that Rand forced the Seanchan back(with significant casualties on both sides) but in the end the Seanchan force adapted better to the strategy and conditions(channeling issues that affected both) while Rand did not. He didn't listen to Bashere and as a result had a large force within site quickly closing in on his position. To say the Seanchan had their backs against the wall as if they were at the city limits is absurd.

 

The bolded parts are absolute incorrect. Rand's forces suffered minor casualties while inflicting considerable damage and prisoner captures UNTIL they engage the Seanchan within mere miles of Ebou Dar itself on day 6. How close Rand was to Ebou Dar is portrayed in Miraj's first 2 PoV's of chapter 24. First PoV, he was camped only a few miles from Ebou Dar, then in the second PoV he has started heading East and gets word that the enemy is only 5 miles east of them. Not actually within the City limits(something I NEVER said) no but pretty damned close and to say the Seanchan had their backs to the City walls is quite accurate.

Continuing to say that the channeling problems affected both forces equally is borderlining on the moronic at this point.

 

 

 

Additionally it's funny how much you have been forced to evolve your take from early posts when you said...

 

The the only evidence I need is Captian Abaldar Yulan's PoV (The same guy who proposes the attack on the White Tower) at the end of aPoD chapter 24 when he orders a full retreat to Ebou Dar.

 

Context...I used that quote to show that Mr. Ares arguing that the Seanchan had not retreated was false.

 

 

Again, if Rand had of left after the 5th day, he would of done so under the conditions of an overwhelming victory with the Seanchan pushed hundreds of miles, backed up to within miles of Ebou Dar. Instead, Rand pushed too far, lost his advantages and the end result was a draw caused when both sides retreated.

Those are the facts!

[Agitel]

This whole argument is getting pretty silly, anyway. The Seanchan had no experience with Traveling and didn't even know of its existence. They thought they were facing multiple groups of forces for days. The Seanchan suffered heavy losses against incredibly new and inventive tactics that made absolutely no sense (given what they knew) led by a military genius.

 

We can debate all day on this.

[Suttree]

Context...I used that quote to show that Mr. Ares arguing that the Seanchan had not retreated was false.

 

Exactly and the context you used was wrong since that quote came after the one Ares provided from Bashere. You have twisted, turned and changed things up all through the debate, I mean have seen you get willfully stubborn with Terez before but this is a bit much. You keep repeating something that no one is debating(Rand's first push) as if saying it enough times will change anything. Despite all of this you still have not addressed the most important part of the battle, you can't pick and choose the parts you wan't and not look at the whole. You initially claimed Rand had beaten them back badly and they were in "full retreat"(refusing to acknowledge casualties and that channeling was an issue for both sides). To do so you provided Yulan's quote saying that was all the proof you need. Ares quickly disproved this with a quote you refuse to touch. Funny how your "facts" don't include the most crucial pieces of the battle.

[Finnssss22]

Context...I used that quote to show that Mr. Ares arguing that the Seanchan had not retreated was false.

 

Exactly and the context you used was wrong since that quote came after the one Ares provided from Bashere. You have twisted, turned and changed things up all through the debate, I mean have seen you get willfully stubborn with Terez before but this is a bit much. You keep repeating something that no one is debating(Rand's first push) as if saying it enough times will change anything. Despite all of this you still have not addressed the most important part of the battle, you can't pick and choose the parts you wan't and not look at the whole. You initially claimed Rand had beaten them back badly and they were in "full retreat"(refusing to acknowledge casualties and that channeling was an issue for both sides). To do so you provided Yulan's quote saying that was all the proof you need. Ares quickly disproved this with a quote you refuse to touch. Funny how your "facts" don't include the most crucial pieces of the battle.

 

 

I'm twisting things?

I'm not the one that chose to only respond to one line while cropping the rest of the post that thoroughly reputed most of what you tried to say.

 

As to the line you did respond to. It was in regards to Mr. Ares saying that the Seanchan won because they had Rand in their sights with an enormous advantage in numbers when in fact no one did.

Also, the day before when Rand's advisers suggested to take the victory and leave, that would of been a withdrawal following a victory, not a retreat. Big difference.

 

 

All you have to do is respond to the following that I have repeated numerous times and tell me where I'm mistaken....

 

If Rand had of left after the 5th day, he would of done so under the conditions of an overwhelming victory with the Seanchan pushed hundreds of miles, backed up to within miles of Ebou Dar. Instead, Rand pushed too far, lost his advantages and the end result was a draw caused when both sides retreated.

[Suttree]

If Rand had of left after the 5th day, he would of done so under the conditions of an overwhelming victory with the Seanchan pushed hundreds of miles, backed up to within miles of Ebou Dar. Instead, Rand pushed too far, lost his advantages and the end result was a draw caused when both sides retreated.

 

Once again you are picking the parts you want to use and keep asking a question that no one is disputing. You cant just say that for 3/4 of the campaign Rand won and that is all that matters. That is why they trot everyone out for the 4th. Unforeseen events happened during a battle!?!? OMG. You can't discount events and casualties because they happened after a certain point. The Seanchan changed their plan and adapted to the conditions, while Rand didn't listen and made mistakes.

 

Also for the record Mr Ares never said the Seanchan won, he said...

 

Bashere to Rand, PoD 24. It goes on: "'You want to find them. Look out there. I can't point to a particular spot, but there are ten, maybe fifteen thousand close enough to see from here, if those trees weren't in the way... Maybe a hundred damane down there. Maybe more. More coming, for sure, and more men. Seems their general has decided to concentrate on you.'" That's not the Seanchan retreating. Not even close.

 

Bashere rightly urged retreat in the face of a looming crisis and Rand didn't listen. Saying the Seanchan were in "full retreat" before this is patently false.

[Finnssss22]

Agree to disagree, lets just leave it at that.

I'm not repeating everything again.

[XXX]

This whole argument is getting pretty silly, anyway. The Seanchan had no experience with Traveling and didn't even know of its existence. They thought they were facing multiple groups of forces for days. The Seanchan suffered heavy losses against incredibly new and inventive tactics that made absolutely no sense (given what they knew) led by a military genius.

 

We can debate all day on this.

 

But the Seachan still hung in there. So you have to give credit to them for that. But to say that Rand was facing defeat at the end is too much. No way could he or his army be beaten as long as they could travel. It would be impossible to beat them because you would never catch them.

[muddasssir]

Again so typical we are just going to avoid the body of evidence and opt for that one insignificant moment. In one of the earlier books there was one of Mat's memories in which he remembers sortying across a river to kill the king of the opposing army and there was a song by Thom to go with it. If you are so bent upon using just tat one quote and nothing else. It was a desperate move by Seanchan commander to kill DR and break the fighting spirit of his forces. To cap it all let me give you a baseball analogy. At the end of ninth team A is leading by 11-2 in tenth team B manages to score 3 and final score is 11-5 can anyone in their right mind claim that team B won? That is what you are doing. let us look at the campaign strategically. What was the aim of Bashere and Rand? they wanted to stop the expansion of Seanchan's forces. So other then Raid on WT have we seen any other expansion or conquests by Seanchan forces? As for pushing Seanchan back into sea it was never the original plan and for not sticking to it he paid the price but question remains how does that make Seanchan EVA. Let me give you anther example, I mean Rodel smashes an army of 300,000 and within few months they are back with an army double that size. I know ow passionate you are but everybody just take a deep breath and relax. try to understand the magnitude of the problem. it means 600,000 strong force. That means a fighting force of 0.6 million people can you imagine what will be required to move a force that big through a hostile territory? kinds of logistical problems they are going to face and forget that from where are they going to conscript so many soldiers? how many farriers, wagon wheel makers, fletchers and host of other specialist they are going to need? But they are going to adopt and kick ass even if it defies simple common sense. This is as i said typical behavior, they are going to defend the EVA even if it flies in te face of common sense.

[Suttree]

Again so typical we are just going to avoid the body of evidence and opt for that one insignificant moment. In one of the earlier books there was one of Mat's memories in which he remembers sortying across a river to kill the king of the opposing army and there was a song by Thom to go with it. If you are so bent upon using just tat one quote and nothing else. It was a desperate move by Seanchan commander to kill DR and break the fighting spirit of his forces. To cap it all let me give you a baseball analogy. At the end of ninth team A is leading by 11-2 in tenth team B manages to score 3 and final score is 11-5 can anyone in their right mind claim that team B won? That is what you are doing. let us look at the campaign strategically. What was the aim of Bashere and Rand? they wanted to stop the expansion of Seanchan's forces. So other then Raid on WT have we seen any other expansion or conquests by Seanchan forces? As for pushing Seanchan back into sea it was never the original plan and for not sticking to it he paid the price but question remains how does that make Seanchan EVA. Let me give you anther example, I mean Rodel smashes an army of 300,000 and within few months they are back with an army double that size. I know ow passionate you are but everybody just take a deep breath and relax. try to understand the magnitude of the problem. it means 600,000 strong force. That means a fighting force of 0.6 million people can you imagine what will be required to move a force that big through a hostile territory? kinds of logistical problems they are going to face and forget that from where are they going to conscript so many soldiers? how many farriers, wagon wheel makers, fletchers and host of other specialist they are going to need? But they are going to adopt and kick ass even if it defies simple common sense. This is as i said typical behavior, they are going to defend the EVA even if it flies in te face of common sense.

 

Sigh. Reading comprehension really doesn't seem to be a strength with you Mudd my boy. No one said that the Seanchan won this battle. No one said that this single battle is proof for the Seanchan being the EVA. What Mr Ares did do was show the full the reality of what happened throughout the Damona campaign, that unlike as falsely claimed the Seanchan were not in "full retreat", and that Bashere counseled pulling out because 100 damane and 15,00 troops had targeted and were closing in on Rand's position. In addition he showed several examples of why other battles were impressive and highlighted facts that you had completely wrong in relation to the topic at hand. Not sure how that could possibly be considered focusing on "one quote"? Once again you have managed to totally ignore all of the pertinent points raised against you and gone off on another strange tangent with stories of Mat(what does that have to do with anything?) and baseball analogies to address something no one claimed. Here I will give you a little help, Mr Ares responded to you in post #81. Try starting there and actually addressing what he had to say for once.

 

In relation to Ituralde your knowledge of the facts are demonstrably lacking once again. He beat a force of 150,000 at Darluna, and then was trapped by a force of 300,000. Not to mention the fact that the Seanchan adapted to his tactics and kept coming helps support the other sides argument.

 

TGS

And doing so had required every bit of craftiness, skill and luck Ituralde could muster. Even then, he'd lost well over half his men. Now he ran, limping, before this second, larger force of Seanchan.

 

This time, they weren't making any mistakes. The Seanchan didn't rely solely on their raken. His men had intercepted several foot scouts, and that meant dozens hadn't been caught. This time, the Seanchan knew Ituralde's true numbers and his true location.

[muddasssir]

well thank you very much and I accept the rebuttal of my facts as fair but in all honesty have you ever seen 300,000 people in one place? I have and they are lot of people you reduce everything by half they still require a lot of resources and support staff. which is utterly ridiculous I am not going on a tangent it is you who are refusing to meet the fact head on that No one can conjure a fighting force of that size out of thin air. so if you cannot have tat second force tan you cannot win that war. It means we have hit a paradox. Either you accept that it is very bad writing or you concede that there is no EVA.

 

As captain planet used to say "the power is yours"

[Finnssss22]

In relation to Ituralde your knowledge of the facts are demonstrably lacking once again. He beat a force of 150,000 at Darluna, and then was trapped by a force of 300,000. Not to mention the fact that the Seanchan adapted to his tactics and kept coming helps support the other sides argument.

 

TGS

 

 

 

Actually...it's your knowledge of the facts that are lacking. The 150,000 was the minimal estimate Ituralde had in tGS prologue, before the Seanchan arrived.

 

tGS Prologue:

Things always had to get worse before they could get better. He'd lit a fire under the Seanchan by destroying their supply depots all across Almoth Plain and into Tarabon. He shouldn't be surprised, then, to see a grand army like this one-a hundred and fifty thousand strong at least-come to quench that fire.

 

 

The actual number did indeed turn out to be 300,000 as was revealed in tGS chapter 6.

 

tGS chapter 6:

Perhaps they would remember the numbers; those often seemed important to scribes. Half of Ituralde's hundred thousand, dead. On any other battlefield, fifty thousand casualties would have shamed and angered him. But he'd faced down a force three times his size, and one with damane at that.

 

 

The new force coming his way was even larger with even more than 300,000 as well as over 200 damane to boot.