Black Ajah Purge

[wphodges]

In the epilogue of TGS (p. 1066 in the paperback), Egwene is reading reports on the Black Ajah who fled the Tower after Egwene's ascension to the Amyrlin Seat. She distinctly says, "Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat." The number she gives is "some sixty Black sisters" (p. 1065). However, on p. 1067, it says that "Each woman on Verin's list was accounted for. She'd been executed, she'd been captured, she'd fled the White Tower the day of Egwene's ascension, she'd been taken by the Seanchan or she was out of the Tower at the moment - and had been for some time."

 

The two quotes above seem contradictory: either all of the Black sisters on Verin's list were seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack, or some of them were taken by the Seanchan - which one is it? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, and it wasn't my intention to look for mistakes. I just want to know if any Black sisters - FROM VERIN'S LIST ONLY - were taken by the Seanchan, or if the ones who weren't executed all escaped. Is this something I'll learn in ToM? I only just finished TGS.

 

Thanks,

Will

[Sharaman]

Yes there are missing links/ contradictions in that section from TGS.

ToM doesn't really address the issues.

[rand4747]

"Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat."

 

i presume they meant of all the ones that were in the tower after the attack most had escaped. So they weren't meaning the whole list just the ones that were in the tower then.

[shadowofomioc]

Thats what happens when you try to create too many characters lol. You lose track of some.

 

All in all, who cares. I think the author was just trying to rid the final book of any no-name people noone cares about. Everyone knows book 12 and 13 were not edited very well, so this slipped through the cracks as well.

[Thorum]

All in all, who cares. I think the author was just trying to rid the final book of any no-name people noone cares about. Everyone knows book 12 and 13 were not edited very well, so this slipped through the cracks as well.

 

Obviously, the first poster cared enough to give this its own thread.

 

And the "Everyone knows" is obviously a lie, because half the posters before me didn't, and i don't necessarily agree. Which makes it at best a "<<half the people who love a book series enough to post on a forum dedicated to it>> know"

 

 

Finally, I don't know the answer, and fear it is indeed an editorial glitch. Best would be to ask Brandon (depending on how fervently you wan't an answer - he won't eat you ;D).

[wphodges]

Thanks for the responses! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Yes, it's not that big of a deal, but it did throw me off for a minute, which is why I posted my question. Thanks again.

[Nightstrike]

Maybe it's more of a sloppy expression on Egwene's part - the "following the attack" part, I mean. Once they fly off (each beast), then maybe someone would see that as "following the attack"? The attack was over for those who left, and if someone saw them carry off the BA Sisters, then they knew each was "healthy and alive". Maybe?

[Sharaman]

I fear it's one of those details that AMoL simply won't have the bandwidth to clear up.

One interesting thought did occur.

We don't know what two of the three Black Oaths are - the third being the "hour of death betrayal".

We do know that the three "normal" oaths hold - the a'dam can't force AS to break them; they can't lie, they can't kill with OP except in self-defence/ SS and they probably can't do the weapon creation thing either.

What if a black sister is captured and forced to do something that conflicts the three BA oaths?

[wphodges]

Interesting thoughts. By now, the Seanchan SHOULD know what AS can and cannot do with the power. It stands to reason that they are smart enough to have learned about the three oaths. However, if any BA were captured, will the Seanchan still probe to see what leashed AS can and can't do with the power? This would then lead them to discover certain discrepancies, and if they are smart enough, figure out that some of their leashed AS are darkfriends.

 

I guess this all depends on what Sanderson meant by all of the BA being seen healthy and alive after the attack. I guess it's a possibility that some of the BA were seen alive but taken by the Seanchan on the to'raken. I'm also wondering whether Liandrin will continue to be a damane. As I mentioned before, I'm only just starting ToM, so I may be asking these questions prematurely, or maybe these questions aren't really important to the overall story and won't be addressed.

 

Another interesting thought. Egwene assumes that three AS that aren't on Verin's list but vanished from the Tower after the attack (Nalasia, Teramina, and Jamilila) cannot be Mesaana because they were too weak in the power, and had been around for years. But why not suspect the Sitter Evanellein? She vanished too, and whether or not she is strong in the power, shouldn't that at least be a possibility because she vanished before the purge?

 

None of this probably matters, I think Mesaana is probably not posing as AS, and masking her ability to channel. Nobody bothers servants. That or she's hiding as a novice or Accepted.

[Byzantine279]

We know the Seanchan know about the Oaths, they are having a hard time believing it as a certainty, however.

 

That is just a rather minor inconsistency, probably better to assume the former is the one it should have been, as that is more explicit than a simple mention as a checkoff on a list, or it is possible she meant to refer to the group that did survive the attack without being captured.

[Ala Rubra]

In the epilogue of TGS (p. 1066 in the paperback), Egwene is reading reports on the Black Ajah who fled the Tower after Egwene's ascension to the Amyrlin Seat. She distinctly says, "Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat." The number she gives is "some sixty Black sisters" (p. 1065). However, on p. 1067, it says that "Each woman on Verin's list was accounted for. She'd been executed, she'd been captured, she'd fled the White Tower the day of Egwene's ascension, she'd been taken by the Seanchan or she was out of the Tower at the moment - and had been for some time."

 

The two quotes above seem contradictory: either all of the Black sisters on Verin's list were seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack, or some of them were taken by the Seanchan - which one is it? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, and it wasn't my intention to look for mistakes. I just want to know if any Black sisters - FROM VERIN'S LIST ONLY - were taken by the Seanchan, or if the ones who weren't executed all escaped. Is this something I'll learn in ToM? I only just finished TGS.

 

Thanks,

Will

 

The first (that ALL members on Verin's list had been seen post Seanchan attack) is probably wrong. We can assume this because when Egwene was first perusing the list, she noted two Black sisters that were known to be in Rand's entourage. Unless someone Traveled to Rand's group and and checked up on them following the Seanchan attack (extremely unlikely), those two at least would not have been seen.

[atlas74]

I had read this interpretting that it meant she had all the BA on Verins list accounted for.

[GB]

another thing which i noted in TGS is when egwene just gets rescued and she went to the Tower to get the Oath Rod, and didnt even ask about Elaida, she went in the early morning, and i assumed by then everyone would know the fate of Elaida. so it was a bit weird why she didnt ask about elaida's fate and then of course she assumes afterwards that Elaida is still Amyrlin

[randsc]

The books are not tightly edited.

[Nightstrike]

The books are not tightly edited.

I don't think this particular example is a big slip. I think it is something a real person could think in such a situation, even if it doesn't make everything crystal clear to the readers.

[Tom Sawyer]

We do know that the three "normal" oaths hold - the a'dam can't force AS to break them; they can't lie, they can't kill with OP except in self-defence/ SS and they probably can't do the weapon creation thing either.

What if a black sister is captured and forced to do something that conflicts the three BA oaths?

 

I think it would have the same effect, since the Oaths are made on the same Oath Rod. No matter how much torture or anything else you use on an Aes Sedai, you can't force her to say that black is white or to shoot some passer-by with a lightning bolt, and similarly you can't force one of the Black Ajah to betray the DO or anything else which contradicts their Oaths because she simply wouldn't be able to do it.

[Sharaman]

We do know that the three "normal" oaths hold - the a'dam can't force AS to break them; they can't lie, they can't kill with OP except in self-defence/ SS and they probably can't do the weapon creation thing either.

What if a black sister is captured and forced to do something that conflicts the three BA oaths?

 

I think it would have the same effect, since the Oaths are made on the same Oath Rod. No matter how much torture or anything else you use on an Aes Sedai, you can't force her to say that black is white or to shoot some passer-by with a lightning bolt, and similarly you can't force one of the Black Ajah to betray the DO or anything else which contradicts their Oaths because she simply wouldn't be able to do it.

 

Yes but she might die or come close to it (as the Salidar spy Pevara caught almost did) if she is forced to do things that conflict.

If a BA is told to do something that the Seanchan know "normal AS" can do, and she cannot do it, -- or dies because of the forced conflict, that gets interewsting .