Blood on the rocks

[FarShainMael]

Is my understanding of balefire correct..

 

Balefire burns a person's thread (or a thing's thread) out of the Pattern back up the timeline, to an extent determind by the amount of balefire used. Back to that point, which I shall call P, the person/thing's effect on events is removed.

 

When Rand balefired Rahvin, he burned that thread back to P, which was before Rahvin's OP-initiated lightning strike killed Mat, Avi and Asmo. This effect of Rahvin's actions between P and the moment Rand balefires him was removed. So effectively, Rahvin hadn't killed them. However, someone else might have done after P, in the interval when Rand was fighting with Rahvin. They didn't because that trio were alive - but they might have done.

 

If Rand is balefired, his thread will be burned back to point Q. The Pattern will not be reset; What happens is that his effect on the Pattern from Q to the present (the moment that someone attacks him with balefire) is removed.

 

I'm aware that 'the Dragon is one with the land, and the land with the Dragon'. But if this one-ness involves the rotation of the earth, what was the earth doing before Rand was born? Standing still?

 

Personally I interpret 'Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed' as meaning that his blood is shed on two separate days.. and that has already happened, courtesy of Ba'alzy and Fain. But, of course, I could be wrong....

[Kahsm]

Is my understanding of balefire correct..

 

Balefire burns a person's thread (or a thing's thread) out of the Pattern back up the timeline, to an extent determind by the amount of balefire used. Back to that point, which I shall call P, the person/thing's effect on events is removed.

 

When Rand balefired Rahvin, he burned that thread back to P, which was before Rahvin's OP-initiated lightning strike killed Mat, Avi and Asmo. This effect of Rahvin's actions between P and the moment Rand balefires him was removed. So effectively, Rahvin hadn't killed them. However, someone else might have done after P, in the interval when Rand was fighting with Rahvin. They didn't because that trio were alive - but they might have done.

 

If Rand is balefired, his thread will be burned back to point Q. The Pattern will not be reset; What happens is that his effect on the Pattern from Q to the present (the moment that someone attacks him with balefire) is removed.

 

I'm aware that 'the Dragon is one with the land, and the land with the Dragon'. But if this one-ness involves the rotation of the earth, what was the earth doing before Rand was born? Standing still?

 

Personally I interpret 'Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed' as meaning that his blood is shed on two separate days.. and that has already happened, courtesy of Ba'alzy and Fain. But, of course, I could be wrong....

 

Yeah, "One with the Land" is hardly "One with the Earth/Planet/Whatever" It's one thing to be linked to the health of things and the balance of life and death around you, and being connected to the physics of the universe.

[Vardar]

I just always took the Twice dawns the day part to mean two days in a row.

[Sharaman]

That two days in a row doesn't seem to work from the wording. It's "the day" - definitely one particular day, when for some reason, the sun (appears to ? ) rise twice.

If it was "Twice dawns a day" I guess you could assume that it would be two days.

[Vardar]

That two days in a row doesn't seem to work from the wording. It's "the day" - definitely one particular day, when for some reason, the sun (appears to ? ) rise twice.

If it was "Twice dawns a day" I guess you could assume that it would be two days.

 

It reads:

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. It can easily be read as Two time shall dawn the day where his blood shall be shed. I'm really not getting where everyone gets the whole day dawning two times. Actually, wasn't it mentioned in the book somewhere, a character asked how can a day dawn two times? I guess that's it. It just seems like you had to add or infer something to get this whole day dawning two times thing.

[FarShainMael]

THe character who said "I don't see how a day can dawn twice" was Thom Merrilin, in TGH26, in conversation with Rand. Thom had just reappeared after his encounter with the Fade. He comments that there are other apparently nonsensical bits of the KC:

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon Reborn, but the Sword That Canot Be Touched lies in the Heart of the Stone, so how can he wield it first, eh?"

 

Rand solved that particular riddle without any recourse to unusual powers or happenings. If this comment by Thom was a clue from RJ about how a day could dawn twice, perhaps we should indeed be looking for simple, prosaic explanations.

[Vardar]

THe character who said "I don't see how a day can dawn twice" was Thom Merrilin, in TGH26, in conversation with Rand. Thom had just reappeared after his encounter with the Fade. He comments that there are other apparently nonsensical bits of the KC:

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon Reborn, but the Sword That Canot Be Touched lies in the Heart of the Stone, so how can he wield it first, eh?"

 

Rand solved that particular riddle without any recourse to unusual powers or happenings. If this comment by Thom was a clue from RJ about how a day could dawn twice, perhaps we should indeed be looking for simple, prosaic explanations.

 

Thanks. I knew it was someone. Honestly in my head it seems pretty simple:

 

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

Twice the day will come when his blood is shed, once you will mourn his supposed death, and the second time will herald a new age (Birth).Rand goes to battle, is thought to be lost, is greatly injured, he returns, then understands what he must do to end it all, and he sheds blood again for the world to be born anew.

 

Unless His kids are born or something, but that would be cheesey.

[TootThatHorn]

you know i dont necessarily think this, but bear in mind there is a way to interpret this prophecy as being two seperate days. It could just be a funny way of saying the day will come when his blood is shed, twice it will happen. as for the rest maybe he is killed or greatly injured at the BT and then is healed or whatever may happen and then goes to the Pit of Doom and gives way for the birth of humanity free again. pretty much what Vardarmus said above me

[auberean]

In all my readings of the series, or the listenings on audio, never have I thought that 'blood on the rocks' referred to blood the substance. It was clear to me back when the characters were naive that 'blood' referred to kin. I guess I have always thought that because in the dragon reborn, Rand is so sure it is his actual bloody mess that is required, it seemed obvious that he was wrong...I think 'blood' refers to his blood 'galad' or his blood 'the Aiel' physically being on the rocks. I most often think it's Galad, but since the wise one's always want Rand to 'know their blood for his', it could be the Aiel.

[Sharaman]

Sorry your explanation "Two time shall dawn the day

That two days in a row doesn't seem to work from the wording. It's "the day" - definitely one particular day, when for some reason, the sun (appears to ? ) rise twice.

If it was "Twice dawns a day" I guess you could assume that it would be two days.

 

It reads:

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

It can easily be read as Two time shall dawn the day where his blood shall be shed. I'm really not getting where everyone gets the whole day dawning two times. Actually, wasn't it mentioned in the book somewhere, a character asked how can a day dawn two times? I guess that's it. It just seems like you had to add or infer something to get this whole day dawning two times thing.

"Day" singular. "The" definite article. Even your interpretation as given above still means that the sun will (apparently) dawn twice on a single day.

 

Edit: Courtesy From the Isle of Madmen

Maybe the sun rises in TAR ?? (The natural light in TAR is sourceless and dim).

[Vardar]

"Day" singular. "The" definite article. Even your interpretation as given above still means that the sun will (apparently) dawn twice on a single day.

 

Edit: Courtesy From the Isle of Madmen

Maybe the sun rises in TAR ?? (The natural light in TAR is sourceless and dim).

 

Yes day is singular, because the twice comes before it, which is the multiple in this context.

 

I.e. switch it up a little.

 

Twice comes the time where you will be challenged.

 

Time is singular. It's a singular event, but by putting twice before it you understand it will happen on two different occasions.

 

Twices comes the day where the sun shall not shine.

Prepare your hearts for the final demise.

 

Would that mean the day dawns twice and yet doesn't shine? No, obviously it means two days the sun won't shine all day, and that lets you know something is coming.

[Iodine]

I've always been of the opinion (or maybe just hope) that there will probably be some double meanings in that prophecy, just because it's basically the most important prophecy, as well as somewhat of the foundation of the whole series' build-up to the Last Battle. Did the "Elayne's children = Calian and Shivan" theory/presumption lose favor, or it just rarely mentioned anymore? I haven't seen it popping up in theories as much these past few years, but I suppose there aren't any real new developments/new info or evidence.

 

I'm hoping it's just a red herring or double entendre, but the combination of "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" and "once for birth" fits a little too nicely with Elayne's very detailed pregnancy for the past few books, emphasis on it being twins/two children, Calian and Shivan being twins (or was it just brother and sister, not necessarily twins?), and Calian (if I recall correctly) being the "the Chooser" and herald of the new Age or something along those lines. Especially with Elayne contentedly trotting off to the Last Battle while just about ready to pop. And being probably the closest meaning for Rand's "blood on the rocks" besides Rand himself. *crosses fingers and hopes for double entendre or red herring*

[FarShainMael]

The Calian and Shivan idea has come up a number of times but, as you say, there haven't been any developments or new info, so it's on the back burner ATM. But it certainly hasn't been dismissed.

 

AFAIK, they're described as brother and sister, not twins (TGH47, ACoS21). But since they are heralds of a new Age, they may well be twins, or at least very close in age. Again, there's nothing to say they can't be twins.

 

Re Elayne giving birth: Those who understand the timelines better than me have worked out that, as of the end of ToM, she is only about 5 months in, so there hardly seems time. However, there is a very interesting bit in ToM29, when Elane and Birgitte are watching the 'dragons' being tested, that Elayne experiences an 'odd indigestion'. Given that Elayne is recovering from her experiences with Doilin Mellar and Chesmal (ToM23) - in fact she's been carried up to the watch site in a makeshift bed - I would not be surprised if this was the beginning of a premature labour. Except that I'm not sure Randland has any incubators..

 

Even so, I can't see Elayne being anywhere near SG when this is happening - unless, of course, she is kidnapped. AGAIN....

[yoniy0]

Yes, five months is a tad early for a safe delivery. However, it's also a little late not to be showing (see DKS's unfinished cover). And then, we have Brandon's comment to Luckers about time:

Luckers: How much time does aMoL cover?

Brandon: It depends on which part of the world you are in. You will understand that when you read A Memory of Light.

[FarShainMael]

Well.. We know that the DO has been interfering with the weather of Randland; and we've seen time loops such as Hinderstap. Are we going to see bubbles of evil where time is slowed in some places, accelerated in others, I wonder?

 

ETA: I see someone has suggested something like this on the AMoL board.

[Sheepherder]

How do you get around the direct reference to Shayol Ghul, boss?

 

I've actually been thinking about that ever since it was confirmed the black rocks used to build Taim's palace are from SG. The prophecy says on the rocks 'of' SG not 'at' SG so technically spilling his blood at the black tower would suffice. It could even explain the twice shed blood. Once at the black tower and once at SG but both times on the rocks of SG. Just a thought.

[yoniy0]

The prophecy says on the rocks 'of' SG not 'at' SG

That's one prophecy. Another does involve SG in an inescapable manner:

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

[Sheepherder]

True and personally, based on that same line, I agree his blood will be shed at SG. I was mainly suggesting the possibility that if the whole "twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" means two seperate instances of his blood being shed, as some have theorized, then both instances don't necessarily have to happen at SG. Once at black tower then at SG.

 

It just seems there needs to be some kind of significance for Taim using SG rock for his place other then "look, I'm the coolest DF around cause I have a SG palace."

[Arath Faringal]

It will probably be something as simple as timezones. It's been noted a few times by characters that used Travelling to move a long distance either east or west that the sun is in a different spot than they would have expected. They don't have knowledge of time zones, so it's got to be a little odd for them.

 

So early one day, say just after dawn, Rand does something that will save the world that involves bloody rocks. A travelling jump, and a time zone or two west, and he sees another sunrise.

 

The only problem is that Shayol Ghul is pretty far to the east. Taim's SG stone palace lies west of it. Not much time for bleeding elsewhere, and the Pit of Doom seems more like the final destination.

[Knivy]

Could the Dragon's blood actuallybe the Dragon's Blood? As in, Seanchan Blood? (Im sure I spelled that wrong...) Its just an idea, and the whole spilling thing would get confusing, but I dont see any conclusive evidence against it, nor for anything else. Could anyone give me more information on the possibility of this?

Thanks in advance!

[Mr Ares]

Could the Dragon's blood actually be the Dragon's Blood? As in, Seanchan Blood? (Im sure I spelled that wrong...) Its just an idea, and the whole spilling thing would get confusing, but I dont see any conclusive evidence against it, nor for anything else. Could anyone give me more information on the possibility of this?

Thanks in advance!

I'm not sure what connection Seanchan blood has with the Dragon's blood. The Dragon's blood could refer to Rand's blood, the blood of his family, or the blood of his people, but none of those fit for Seanchan.

[TristanWebb]

I like how in this thread people say that the blood can be metaphorical blood but the day dawning can only mean that someone will balefire the creater and turn back time :P

[Tai'shar Malkier]

Well what about the wound in rands side, it seems logical to me that rand always bleeds out of his side when over exerting himself, and I'm pretty sure he will again at SG, so even without necessarily getting hurt he will bleed everywhere. I would def say after releasing three dark one and trying to seal him back properly... I believe rand will die and then be plucked out of the pattern, like birgette. I think that his death is destined but not necessarily his end

[Vardar]

I like how in this thread people say that the blood can be metaphorical blood but the day dawning can only mean that someone will balefire the creater and turn back time :P

 

RIGHT!

[Knivy]

Could the Dragon's blood actually be the Dragon's Blood? As in, Seanchan Blood? (Im sure I spelled that wrong...) Its just an idea, and the whole spilling thing would get confusing, but I dont see any conclusive evidence against it, nor for anything else. Could anyone give me more information on the possibility of this?

Thanks in advance!

I'm not sure what connection Seanchan blood has with the Dragon's blood. The Dragon's blood could refer to Rand's blood, the blood of his family, or the blood of his people, but none of those fit for Seanchan.

Where are the restrictions? Seanchan Blood sworn to him would be the "Dragon's Blood" just like the Aiel are the "People of the Dragon."