Blood on the rocks

[Darthe]

Any chance that Rand's blood is actually something more? As in a seal to the DO or some sort of catalyst? I mean, he is the Dragon, chosen and spoken to by the creator. Perhaps he picked something up in Veins of Gold or Eye of the World that makes his blood a poison of sorts? No real idea but "In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

[Taryn]

Or Antidote ;) I don't recall any kind of foreshadowing that might give us a clue to that Darthe, but whose to say his blood couldn't be 'special' like you suggest. Maybe someone who has more knowledge than I might have some insight.

 

Mr. Ares, you can't take out bits of prophecy, it ruins the context, so ignoring the 'red on black' part isn't really an option. Sorry though, I didn't remember that we had seen that the rocks at SG were black. However, the Aiel are Rand's blood, so there's no use saying that their blood can't be the fulfillment. It could be that Rand's literal blood will be spilt, or some other figurative version of Rand's blood like we've discussed. And I'm definitely not saying we shouldn't try to figure it out, cause that's fun :) But i am saying that its awfully presumptuous to claim to know exactly what it means before it comes to pass.

 

As a strange aside, the second line could be fulfilled by a group of Aiel (Rand's Blood) who enter into the Pit of Doom and unlock a bunch of cages full of men captured by the shadow. Boom prophecy fulfilled.....kinda. ;)

[Simpleman2012]

In Book 3, after Rand had declared the flag of Dragon Reborn on the mountains and the attack by the trollocs that left him bleeding, he suggested to Moiraine that he should just simply go to SG, shed his blood on the rocks as the prophecy said, and get it over and done with.

 

However Moiraine lectured him on comprehending prophecies there and then. Scholars had been studying those prophecies for centuries and had found nothing conclusive, as there were many other prophecies involved as well, and cannot be taken linerly or literally, rather, go with the flow as ordained by the Pattern.

 

But it was Lan's advice that he found comfort and woke up, something along the lines of 'Be a man, you are the dragon reborn, and must do what needs to be done.'

 

Will he die in SG or not? Whatever it is, Rand will not turn from his destiny, and it will be faithfully played out in book 14.

[yoniy0]

We do know that Rand's going to 'die', since the Aelfinn said so. It might be a figurative death, ture, but death it has to be nonetheless. It might or might not tie in with his blood being spilled on the rocks of SG; I agree that this sort of hints and logical leaps is exactly the way in which RJ might try to trip us.

 

Therefore I believe that Rand will die in the next book, but not necessarily at SG, and I do think that he'll come back in one way or another. Whether he gets to live after the Last Battle with his girls I couldn't definitively say, but I tend to think he will be rewarded in some way (which might be in TAR for all I know).

[Luckers]

I've long believed that the blood on the rocks has nothing to do with Rand dying--as much because Elaida was so covinced of that interpretation as anything else. Recently I like the idea of it referring to a day when--seperately, at dawn, both the Aiel and Andor is attacked (Caemlyn and Merrilor perhaps)--Rand's two 'bloods' bleeding at dawn on the same day seperately....

[yoniy0]

How do you get around the direct reference to Shayol Ghul, boss?

[Luckers]

Sorry I was thinking of the twice dawns the day not his blood on the rocks. :-)

[Mr Ares]

Mr. Ares, you can't take out bits of prophecy, it ruins the context, so ignoring the 'red on black' part isn't really an option.

If it doesn't tell us anything useful, it can be ignored. Red on black tells us that something red will be on something black. It then goes on to say, in the same sentence, that the Dragon's blood satins the rocks at SG. Either it is an unrelated part of the same sentence, or the Dragon's blood (red) will be on SG's rocks (black). Whereas if we remove red on black, we get the Dragon's blood (blood usually being red) on SG's rocks (which we know are black). So whatever the interpretation of blood is, figurative or literal, it has to be red. Thats all we get from that first part. Would even a ginger tide of Aiel count as red?

Sorry though, I didn't remember that we had seen that the rocks at SG were black. However, the Aiel are Rand's blood, so there's no use saying that their blood can't be the fulfillment. It could be that Rand's literal blood will be spilt, or some other figurative version of Rand's blood like we've discussed. And I'm definitely not saying we shouldn't try to figure it out, cause that's fun :) But i am saying that its awfully presumptuous to claim to know exactly what it means before it comes to pass.

The Aiel are Rand's blood. But the Prophecies require blood to be shed. Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed." The Aiel are Rand's blood, but their blood is not his blood. An Aielman is Rand's blood, but a bleeding Aielman is not shedding Rand's blood. So how do the Aiel being fulfill his blood being shed? Rand is shedding Aiel? Further, Min had a Viewing of Rand: "black rock wet with blood." If we look at all the relevant prophecies rather than cherry picking, then explanations involving Aiel or Galad or Rand's kids become increasingly problematic. Not that there isn't a way to put it together to provide a decent explanation, just that most people aren't bothering. Simply saying that the Aiel are Rand's blood isn't enough. You're not answering any of the problems with the theory. And you're talking to me about context.

[Luckers]

Sorry Ares, the semanticism of your argument doesn't hold up. Aiel bleeding--or indeed Andormen bleeding--both suffice to fulfil the statement by common usage. Aiel, Andor, his children by Elayne or Aviendha--even Slayer. All of these hold up to the common usage of reference to someone's 'blood'.

 

It's not the blood physically contained in his body, and thus not scientifically his blood, but culturally, the reference to someone's 'blood' has much wider considertions. Which means that so long as someone he is gentically related to is bleeding, it fulfils the casual usage of the phrase 'blood'

[bobarose]

if rand dies so be it his death is what makes this story so good.it is how he dies that is so important to me.will he go lews crazy or some how save his friends and the rest of the world/universe.his death will be the start of the new age.so he will become part of the legends and lore of the time.may your water always find shade bubs.

[Mr Ares]

Sorry Ares, the semanticism of your argument doesn't hold up. Aiel bleeding--or indeed Andormen bleeding--both suffice to fulfil the statement by common usage. Aiel, Andor, his children by Elayne or Aviendha--even Slayer. All of these hold up to the common usage of reference to someone's 'blood'.

 

It's not the blood physically contained in his body, and thus not scientifically his blood, but culturally, the reference to someone's 'blood' has much wider considertions. Which means that so long as someone he is gentically related to is bleeding, it fulfils the casual usage of the phrase 'blood'

I wouldn't call those either casual or common usages of the phrase "blood". Those people are his blood, but them bleeding is not his blood being shed. If Rand bleeds, he is shedding the blood of the Aiel. If an Aielman bleeds, he is not shedding the blood of the Dragon.

 

His children would be a valid use of the phrase, though, but they are unlikely to fulfill the prophecy for other reasons.

[Taryn]

Mmmmm.....agree to disagree then?

[Mr Ares]

Probably a good idea. Semantic arguments are seldom fun.

[Taryn]

Agreed.

[Wantanswers]

Probably a good idea. Semantic arguments are seldom fun.

If semantics isn't used correct it isn't fun at all; but most of the prophecies can't be correctly interpreted without it.

 

Twice dawns the day

This line is ambigious and without semantics you can't find both interpretations.

Twice dawns the day

Emphaising the word day give the meaning that most (if not all) people believe : One day with two dawns.

Twice dawns the day

You can also emphais the word twice and than it has a different meaning: Two sequential days and two dawns.

 

To live you must die

"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

I concentrated on:

Q: How can I survive the Last Battle?

A: If you would live, you must die.

Because the Aelfinn always give true answers we can interpret it:

If you would survive, you must die!

The word survive implies that Rand won't be killed. It also implies that he won't expire. The question is now: "How can he die and survive?"

 

As long as someone is dying, one isn’t dead. One can start to die weeks before expiring. (if you want more information, google for dying process and near-death experience). While one is dying one can sometimes be healed! While one is dying one can sometimes be reanimated. It is even possible to revive spontaneously.

 

Combining the dawn-prophecy with the die-answer we know:

Rand will start to die when the first day dawns, and he will revive when the next day dawns.

 

Perhaps you'll think this interpretation is rediculous, because I found it with semantics, but I can assure you it is right.

I've made a study about Rand's role in the Last Battle and most of what is going to happen between those two dawns I've figured out. The problem is that you have to find out what is going to happen before the first dawn. You cannot find the interpretation of one of Egwene's dreams before you have figured that out, but it will be quite easy after.

 

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

While reading ToM I found information to finetune my ideas, but the most important part to me, was the part that showed that my ideas were right.

A figure stood at the very top of the jagged, broken tip of the mountain. Perrin kept pressing onward. Someone needed to watch. Someone needed to be there when it happened.

Finally, heaved atop one last stone and found himself within a dozen feet of the top. He could make out the figure now. The man stood at the very heart of the vortex of staring eastward, motionless. He was faint and translucent, a reflection of the real world. Like a shadow. Perrin had never seen anything like it.

It was Rand, of course. Perrin had known that it would be. Perrin held to the stone with one rugged hand and pulled his cloak with the other – he’d created the cloak several cliff faces ago. He blinked through reddened eyes, gazing upward. He had to focus most of his concentration on pushing back some of the winds to keep himself from being out into the tempest.

Lighting flashed suddenly, thunder sounding for the first time since he’d begun climbing. The lighting began to arc in a dome around the top of the mountain. It threw light across Rand’s face. That hard, impassive face, like stone itself. Where had its curves gone? When had Rand gained so many lines and angles? And those eyes, they seemed made of marble!

Rand wore a coat of black and red. Fine and ornamented, with a sword on his waist. The winds didn’t affect Rand’s clothes. Those fell unnaturally still, as if he were just a statue. Carved from stone. The only thing that moved was his dark red hair, blowing in the wind, thrown and spun. Perrin clung to the rocks for his life, cold winds biting into his cheeks, his fingers and feet so numb he could barely feel them. His beard bristled with dusty ice and snow. Something black began to spin around Rand. It wasn’t part of the storm; it seemed like night itself leaking from him. Tendrils of it grew from Rand’s own skin, like tiny hands curling back and wrapping around him. It seemed evil itself given life.

“Rand!” Perrin bellowed. “Fight it! Rand!”

His voice was lost in the wind, and he doubted that Rand could have heard him anyway. The darkness continued to seep out, like a liquid tar coming through Rand’s pore, creating a miasma of pitch around the Dragon Reborn. Within moments, Perrin could hardly see Rand through the blackness. It enclosed him, cutting him off, banishing him. The Dragon Reborn was gone. Only evil remained.

“Rand, please….” Perrin whispered.

And then ─ from the midst of the blackness, from the center of the uproar and tempest ─ a tiny sliver of light split through the evil. Like a candle’s glow on a very dark night. The light shone upward, toward the distant sky, like a beacon. So frail.

The tempest buffeted it. The winds stormed, howled and screamed. The lightning beat against the top of the rocky peak, blasting free chunks of rock, scoring the ground. The blackness undulated and pulsed.

But still the light shone.

A web of cracks appeared down the side of the shell of evil blackness, light shining from within. Another fracture joined it, and another. Something strong was inside, something glowing, something brilliant.

The shell exploded outward, vaporizing and releasing a column of light so bright, so incredible that it seemed to sear the eyes from Perrin’s head. But he looked on anyway, not raising arm to shade or block the resplendent image before him. Rand stood within that light, mouth open as if bellowing toward the skies above. The sun-yellowed column shot into the air, and the storm seemed to shudder, the entire sky itself undulating.

The tempest vanished.

That column of fiery light became a column of sunlight streaming down, illuminating the peak of Dragonmount. Perrin pulled his fingers free from the rock, gazing on with wonder at Rand, standing within the light. It seemed so long, so very long, since Perrin had seen a ray of pure sunlight.

(Towers of Midnight, Men Dream Here)

[Shardbearer]

If the prophecy does happen to require Rand's death, I've wondered if the link between Rand and Moridin, while allowing Rand to access Moridin's link to the True Power, might also mean that Moridin's death at Shayol Ghul could also satisfy the prophecy. As sort of an accidental loophole.

[Darthe]

I have always seen "twice dawns the day" to be a metaphorical thing rather than literal. BF doesn't have the strength to move the sun unless the sun is what is hit or something, so it isn't aas if the sun is going to rise, fall an hour, and then rise again or something. In a literal sense, Rand's battle with the DO could cause him to enter on one dawn and exit victorious on the next I suppose. There is foreshadowing for this and for a metaphorical sense in which Rand brings a new day etc. Evidenced: Lord of the Morning, He Who Comes With the Dawn, etc. After all, does anyone know why LTT got that name and why it passed to Rand?

[Wantanswers]

If the prophecy does happen to require Rand's death, I've wondered if the link between Rand and Moridin, while allowing Rand to access Moridin's link to the True Power, might also mean that Moridin's death at Shayol Ghul could also satisfy the prophecy. As sort of an accidental loophole.

Rand won't use the True Power. Would you accept a mine of your ennemy, knowing that your ennemy controls it. You would never know when it will explode. And it is the Dark One who controls the True Power. Rand won't use the One Power either, for that would likely taint the True Source. Rand will only use a ter'angreal that doesn't need channeling to survive.

Rand has to die to get rid of the darkness that Nynaeve saw when she delved him.

[Wantanswers]

I have always seen "twice dawns the day" to be a metaphorical thing rather than literal. BF doesn't have the strength to move the sun unless the sun is what is hit or something, so it isn't aas if the sun is going to rise, fall an hour, and then rise again or something. In a literal sense, Rand's battle with the DO could cause him to enter on one dawn and exit victorious on the next I suppose. There is foreshadowing for this and for a metaphorical sense in which Rand brings a new day etc. Evidenced: Lord of the Morning, He Who Comes With the Dawn, etc. After all, does anyone know why LTT got that name and why it passed to Rand?

There will be a non-litteral dawn as well. In the wolfdream I quoted you can find it.

“Rand, please….” Perrin whispered.

And then ─ from the midst of the blackness, from the center of the uproar and tempest ─ a tiny sliver of light split through the evil. Like a candle’s glow on a very dark night. The light shone upward, toward the distant sky, like a beacon. So frail.

The tempest buffeted it. The winds stormed, howled and screamed. The lightning beat against the top of the rocky peak, blasting free chunks of rock, scoring the ground. The blackness undulated and pulsed.

But still the light shone.

A web of cracks appeared down the side of the shell of evil blackness, light shining from within. Another fracture joined it, and another. Something strong was inside, something glowing, something brilliant.

The shell exploded outward, vaporizing and releasing a column of light so bright, so incredible that it seemed to sear the eyes from Perrin’s head. But he looked on anyway, not raising arm to shade or block the resplendent image before him. Rand stood within that light, mouth open as if bellowing toward the skies above. The sun-yellowed column shot into the air, and the storm seemed to shudder, the entire sky itself undulating.

The tempest vanished.

Here you see that the darkness is expelled by the light. Something like that will happen during the second dawn, because the Dark One will be defeated than. Besides, that dawn will also be the dawn of a new age, possibly even the dawn of a new era.

 

I suppose you referred with BF to TheTwice-Dawning Day 'theory'. You are right, Moraine won't balefire Rand. Of that 'theory' only the parts that Terez copied and pasted are right. She also showed that she doesn't understand how balefire works.

[Suttree]

She also showed that she doesn't understand how balefire works.

 

How so?

[Wantanswers]

She also showed that she doesn't understand how balefire works.

 

How so?

 

First of all, neither Rand nor the land causes the rotation of the world, so balefiring Rand wouldn't have any effect. Then, even if they should cause that rotation, there wouldn't be a contra-revolution of the earth. When Rand balefired Rahvin, his thread was burned back to some extend and all Rahvin's actions during that time didn't happen. Matt and Aviendha didn't revive, they weren't resurrected; they didn't die! Now, supposing Rand causes the rotation of the world, supposing Rand's thread has been burned back half an hour, the world would return half an hour and the rotations wouldn't exist anymore. Now, how can something that doesn"t exist be reversed.

[Lisa Campbell]

New thoughts...

 

I think a common mistake is to bundle these prophecies together. I'll give a couple of brief scenarios from another perspective:

 

"Red on black..."

 

Rand has broken the seals and snuck to Shayol Ghul with the hide-and-seek knife. He is about to enter the cavern when Moridin, dressed in black with red trim, jumps out and slashes at Rand leaving the Dragon dripping blood onto the rocks. Rand is hard put just to defend himself one-handed so tries do dissuade Moridin. "Why are you doing this, fighting for him? Of all the Forsaken you had no reason to abandon the light, you were never jealous blah blah blah. You just gave up..." Eventually, Moridin repents after a bit of word play and renounces the Shadow. Moridin is immediately killed (maybe by Shadar Haran?) and his blood frees mankind from the Shadow.

 

OK, next - going for the slightly obvious:

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed..."

 

After the battle with Moridin and the Dark One, the Aiel nation are in the Blight trying to exterminate any shadowspawn they can find. They are successful, but all die anyway. The last one at dawn. The remnant mourns.

 

Elayne gives birth (there's a bit of blood in every birth even if uncomplicated, not to mention when the umbilical cord is cut). Andor celebrates the birth of their new Heir and Prince.

 

Something to think about, and believe me that except for Moridin reverting, it is new to me too but I think highly logical and, given the repetitive foreshadowing quote of "No-one is so far under the Shadow that they cannot return to the light", even more so. That is what I am waiting to see and I'm certain it won't be Lanfear/Cyndane.

[Terez]

She also showed that she doesn't understand how balefire works.

 

How so?

 

First of all, neither Rand nor the land causes the rotation of the world, so balefiring Rand wouldn't have any effect.

 

Does Rand cause his heart to beat? Does the land cause the crops to grow? Also. Clearly Rand is a force to be reckoned with. We don't know what causes Rand to be so intimately connected with the land, but we do know that there is evidence that his death will have an adverse effect on the Land in many ways. There is even evidence that Rand is more intimately connected with the land than Lews Therin was (though the adverse effects of Lews Therin's death might well have been masked by the actions of the remaining madmen). Since it's a supernatural connection, there's nothing to say that Rand's death wouldn't supply the proper amount of torque to slow down the Earth's inertia, or that balefiring Rand wouldn't reverse the rotation.

 

The foreshadowing indicates that the earth will actually stand still while Rand is dead, presumably in its pre-dawn state. The sun rises; Rand is balefired; all of a sudden it's pre-dawn again, and it stays that way for an indeterminate amount of time. Three days seems the most likely. When I wrote the aforementioned theory, I was thinking 'the day' had to be one literal day, but there is some amount of mythological inspiration for stretching the meaning of 'day' here. The Irish goddess Boann and her lover The Dagda conceived a son together, Aengus. So that their affair would not be revealed, they stopped the sun for nine months so that Aengus could be born on 'the day' he was conceived. Now, you might take this a step further and say that Elayne will indeed have her children so that the 'affair' wouldn't be revealed, but as far as I can tell that doesn't make any sense.

 

Now, it turns out that Boann and The Dagda both have name parallels in WoT. Semirhage's name in the Age of Legends was Nemene Damendar Boann. Third names were given to honor prodigious accomplishments, and most likely have meanings related to those accomplishments. And so, Boann is tied to Healing in that way. Dagdara is a Yellow, and she was considered the best Healer in Salidar until Nynaeve came along (Cadsuane thought Samitsu was the best, but she wasn't in Salidar). Dagdara is, of course, also Black Ajah. And so Boann and The Dagda are both tied to Healing and also tied to evil through their name parallels.

 

Furthermore, one of the most blatant foreshadowings of the method of Rand's resurrection is also tied to Boann, and to Healing, and to evil (note the chapter name, derived from a town on the river; Galad paid their passage that far, and this is where most of the refugees got off):

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

This was, of course, just after 'Marigan' had shown Nynaeve precisely how to 'Heal' death. Marigan, who has no interest in Healing and therefore couldn't teach Nynaeve anything about it. (Supposedly.)

 

Once RJ was asked to name his favorite sff films. He named five: Bladerunner, Forbidden Planet, Terminator, Excalibur, and The Day the Earth Stood Still. Terminator and Excalibur are certainly paralleled in WoT, especially Excalibur (as far as I know, the clearest Terminator parallel was the T2 Darkhounds). It seems The Day the Earth Stood Still will be paralleled as well.

 

So that's all fine and good to show that the earth will stand still, and that Rand's death will cause it. Because what else would cause the earth to stand still? But in order to explain why it will dawn twice, you need balefire. And if someone is going to balefire Rand, it's got to be Moiraine.

 

Then, even if they should cause that rotation, there wouldn't be a contra-revolution of the earth. When Rand balefired Rahvin, his thread was burned back to some extend and all Rahvin's actions during that time didn't happen. Matt and Aviendha didn't revive, they weren't resurrected; they didn't die! Now, supposing Rand causes the rotation of the world, supposing Rand's thread has been burned back half an hour, the world would return half an hour and the rotations wouldn't exist anymore. Now, how can something that doesn"t exist be reversed.

 

Mat and Aviendha "didn't die" on a technicality. They died in the sense that Mat fulfilled the Aelfinn prophecy; he died and lived again. RJ himself confirmed that this was the fulfillment of the prophecy. People remember them being dead, including Rand. Asmodean was even able to figure it out, and barely had long to celebrate his new life before Graendal offed him again.

[Terez]

I have always seen "twice dawns the day" to be a metaphorical thing rather than literal. BF doesn't have the strength to move the sun unless the sun is what is hit or something, so it isn't aas if the sun is going to rise, fall an hour, and then rise again or something.

 

Who said anything about moving the sun? We're only talking about reversing the earth's rotation here; we haven't believed that the sun moves around the earth for some time now.

 

Lord of the Morning, He Who Comes With the Dawn, etc. After all, does anyone know why LTT got that name and why it passed to Rand?

No, no one knows how Lews Therin got the name. If I recall correctly, Bashere was the one who started adding it to Rand's titles, though this was of course after Rand became He Who Comes With the Dawn.

[bobarose]

blood on the rocks ,aint no big suprise just pour me a drink cand i'll tell you some lies.i got nothing to lose.

so you just sing the blues for awhile.

i gave you my heart and i gave you my soul. you left me alone here with nothing to hold.

yesterdays gone now all i want is a smile.....