Blood on the rocks

[Sharaman]

Thought sparked by another thread.

Galad and Slayer share Rand's blood.

Would the blood of either of them on the rocks at Shayul Ghul satisfy the prophesy?

[TheLagomorph]

I guess it would. In a kinda lame sort of way.

[Mr Ares]

Not really. Galad/Slayer/the Aiel/etc. can qualify as Rand's blood, but Galad's blood is not Rand's blood, and nor is Slayer's blood, or anyone elses. The only person with Rand's blood is Rand, so if the Prophecies require the Dragon's literal blood it has to be Rand's. If the Prophecies require Rand's metaphorical blood, then whoever fulfills that requirement doesn't have to bleed. Unless you have two or more prophecies - for example, one requiring the Dragon's blood, and another simply requiring literal blood without specifying whose - then Galad or Slayer bleeding cannot fulfill prophecy. And that would be a little convoluted, don't you think?

[spoke]

Thought sparked by another thread.

Galad and Slayer share Rand's blood.

Would the blood of either of them on the rocks at Shayul Ghul satisfy the prophesy?

 

 

I always took it as his blood referring to the Aiel. After all, he is half Aiel. They are his blood.

[yoniy0]

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul" is part of the wording of the prophecy. His blood, red. If we want figurative blood, we still need to explain that bit.

 

PS

The following line of the prophecy, the one about his blood freeing mankind in the Pit of Doom, may still refer to a different sort of 'his blood', but that doesn't change this line.

[Kahsm]

Not signing up to this theory, but the Siswai'aman wear red headbands...

 

Edit: also, I kinda thought the OP meant all the aiel could get slaughtered on the rocks, and you'd still get your red blood of the dragon on the rocks.

[Goldstar]

Aren't Moridin/Taim's favorite colors Red and Black? Maybe they'll fight Galad/an Aiel/Slayer/whatever, and kill them.

[Sharaman]

All comes back to whether "blood" is used in the metaphorical sense of close kinship, or as literal fluid belonging to one guy.

We've seen it used in both senses in WoT.

Literal blood must be spilled on the rocks at SG - that seems clear from the prophesy.

That blood must be connected to the DR - again, clear enough.

It may however, be either his personal blood (which is the popular and most likely interpretation) or some close kin (which would have to be Slayer/ Galad since we don't know of a third).

It would spread the net too wide to extend the metaphorical description to the "Aiel" or "Andor".

[Byzantine279]

It always struck me as odd that this part of the prophecy never said who the "He" was, while it could be, in context, taken to mean the dragon, prophecy should never be taken without a grain of salt, especially as everyone seems to believe this prophecy means Rand will die, when all it really says is that he will bleed, and it doesn't say how much, so a single drop would be enough to fulfill the prophecy.

 

It galls me how people in that world stretch prophecies like this so thin, despite the fact that they should always be taken as literally as possible, as anyone who has ever read fantasy knows (If it says "and so the sky shall be painted red" it is probably going to just be a sunset, don't go thinking the sky is going to be filled with blood, or the like).

 

Min's viewing makes it seem that the blood that is spilled will be Rand's own, as she only has viewings about the person they are hovering around. Though it is also possible the viewing is blood that Rand caused someone else to lose, as it seems links like that are also possible in her viewings.

 

The original prophecy is not nearly enough to even say that whoever will be spilling the blood is human, it could be trolloc blood for all we know, since the prophecy references a "He", and it should be clear by now that in prophecy one should never assume that the antecedent is what it is expected to be, because for some reason they are always unduly vague.

[Mr Ares]

It always struck me as odd that this part of the prophecy never said who the "He" was, while it could be, in context, taken to mean the dragon, prophecy should never be taken without a grain of salt, especially as everyone seems to believe this prophecy means Rand will die, when all it really says is that he will bleed, and it doesn't say how much, so a single drop would be enough to fulfill the prophecy.

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul." I'd say that's quite specific as to who the blood belongs to.

[Taryn]

Red-veiled Aiel, anybody????

 

I gotta agree with most of the posters here... prophecy is incredibly slippery. Any of the previously put forward theories could be correct, or some combination, or none of them. Its just tough, but that's what makes it fun :)

[Byzantine279]

Ahh, it must have been a different passage i was thinking of, then. I know several of the prophecies are less than specific.

[yoniy0]

Ahh, it must have been a different passage i was thinking of, then. I know several of the prophecies are less than specific.

It was probably either this:

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

Or that:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

The second could be taken the way you suggest, if the first didn't cover pretty much the same ground already. And we'd be hard-pressed to believe that "He" in the first prophecy isn't the "Dragon".

[Tom Sawyer]

It would be a really lame letdown if, after 14 books of buildup about how Rand needs to sacrifice himself to save the world, that turns out to be a metaphor about something else and he doesn't need to do that. It would be like Zeus giving Prometheus a stern talking-to or Pilate giving Jesus a token fine and telling him not to stir people up anymore. If you're going to write a story about someone sacrificing himself for the sake of others, then that story needs to include an actual sacrifice on his part.

 

Rand needs to go willingly to his death and then die. Anything else would just be kind of cheesy.

[Simpleman2012]

Actually, no where does those prophecies specifically says Rand will die literally. Most of those viewings were couched figuritively, and many took them as fact which is wrong, as it is only presumptions and assumptions.

 

For example, 'the dragon's blood staining upon the rocks' does not necessarily mean that the dragon will die with every drop of his blood staining upon those rocks.

 

Blood will be spilt on those rocks for certainty, but that Rand died there is not a fact.

 

Min's viewing of 3 women watching Rand on a funeral Bier does not necessarily mean that Rand will die immediately after the Last battle. Rand is only mortal, and his time will ultimately come one day. Min's viewing did not say when.

 

Although this is only a fantasy tale, with the author's right to choose whichever ending he sees fit, the writer will still attempt to base those writings on the most logical grounds, as proven in the numerous relevant revelations in the plotlines in various books which are compelling, of which I am in awe that he could keep track of, a rare talent indeed.

[Suttree]

For example, 'the dragon's blood staining upon the rocks' does not necessarily mean that the dragon will die with every drop of his blood staining upon those rocks.

 

Blood will be spilt on those rocks for certainty, but that Rand died there is not a fact.

 

True but "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth." is fairly suggestive..."twice to live, and twice to die" is also mentioned.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

Although this is only a fantasy tale, with the author's right to choose whichever ending he sees fit, the writer will still attempt to base those writings on the most logical grounds, as proven in the numerous relevant revelations in the plotlines in various books which are compelling, of which I am in awe that he could keep track of, a rare talent indeed.

 

Yes he can choose whichever he wants, but some of those choices for endings would be much lamer and more stupid than others. Rand surviving the Last Battle and the lines which were misinterpreted to refer to his death being references to something else and he'd spent the whole series worried about a misunderstanding would be one of the lamer choices. Not Rand and Moridin having a dance-off to decide the fate of the world kind of lame (although it would be RJ's right to choose that), but pretty close.

[Sharaman]

His blood may be shed on SG but given Travel, thinness in Pattern, etc., he might not actually die there.

Anyway it was just an idle thought that "blood" could also be a relative's.

[Byzantine279]

It depends, Tom, Rand spent several books heading his list with Moiraine, and we all know exactly how dead she is.

[Simpleman2012]

Tom, if you are hoping for an ending for the death of Rand, then perhaps you might have missed out on the point of the whole series.

 

The Wheel of Time series is not about evil triump over good. There will be times when evil won battles, but it had NOT won the war. And majority of those characters on the Light side had never gave in to the dark side, no matter how tortured or in dire straits they were mired in.

 

It's all about hope and never surrendering in to the darkside. And it mirrors real life that we can all relate to.

 

No doubt the series is a fantasy tale, and Robert Jordan is no preacher, but he draws parallel from real life to put flesh to each character, both dark and the light, in an attempt that readers may relate to it, and gain strength that they are not alone or encountering something new in human social behaviour.

 

Look around you, and you will see a Rand, an Egwene, a Logain, a Taim, a Moridin - strangers that you will get to meet and know one day, without those 'superpowers' of course, but the strength of mind and that alone is a power by itself. Through it all, may we learn something and how to deal with them, and is the true legacy Robert Jordan wants to leave with us all.

 

Regardless if Rand dies in the last battle or not, it does not truly matter, nor does it in any way detracts from Jordan's legacy. Knowledge is not an end to itself, but the journey along the way, and Jordan certainly had provided an immense, immersive, at times thought provoking journey with the series.

[Tom Sawyer]

But that wouldn't change it from being an extraordinarily lame way to end the series. Fortunately, I don't think it's any kind of legitimate worry and Rand is actually going to die.

[Taryn]

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

There are a couple of assumptions that are being made with the first line here. One, that Red means Blood, or more specifically the Dragon's blood (Rand's, Galad, Slayer, Aiel however you want to argue it). Two, that the rocks of Shayol Ghul are actually black. We know from our own experiences that human blood is red; thus, we make the easy and automatic connection, and tie the two together. We also know that sometimes rocks are black, and black is often the color of evil (i.e. Shayol Ghul). The combination of these assumptions are leading us to a common understanding, that red blood will stain the black rocks of shayul ghul, neatly tying up that first line. However, we are assuming something that isn't necessary needed to fulfill the prophecy.

 

All I'm trying to get across is how difficult it is to predict prophecy because it can be insanely complicated with many potential meanings derived from the way the words themselves were constructed, let alone the complications that the different meanings of a word brings. So don't go around saying, "Well, this line clearly means 'xxxx'" because nothing is clear about prophecy until it is finally fulfilled, and sometimes its not even clear then.

 

To finish, let me leave you with an example that satisfies the two lines of prophecy above, yet is a bit off the handle. Keep in mind I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory:

During 'The Last Battle' the shadow's Red-veiled Aiel engage the Dragon's black-veiled Aiel at Shayol Ghul in a struggle for death and survival. Subsequently, as the blood of the Dragon, spilt from the Dragon's people, drips and flows over the rocky wasteland, the grey/brown rocks of Shayol Ghul are stained.

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, there are ways to read the prophecy which don't involve Rand's death. Nobody's ever disputed that. What I'm saying is that given Rand's buildup to his need to die to win the Last Battle (his interpretation of those prophecies), it would be an extremely lame way to end the story.

[Taryn]

Sorry, i didn't mean any disrespect, and i I wasn't really responding directly to you, Tom :) I understand that's how you feel, and I'm not disputing it. Others would disagree, like the OP, but it doesn't really matter in terms of what the prophecy actually means. I was referring more towards those of us who adamantly say this prophecy absolutely means one thing or the other, when really it has a lot of different flavors to it, and many ways it could twist and turn.

[Mr Ares]

"Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

There are a couple of assumptions that are being made with the first line here. One, that Red means Blood, or more specifically the Dragon's blood (Rand's, Galad, Slayer, Aiel however you want to argue it).

I would say the assumption being made is that the Dragon's Blood means the Dragon's Blood. If you take out the red on black part it doesn't really change the meaning any. We are told the Dragon's Blood stains the rocks of SG, it's not an assumption.

Two, that the rocks of Shayol Ghul are actually black.

We know they are, we've seen SG.

 

All I'm trying to get across is how difficult it is to predict prophecy because it can be insanely complicated with many potential meanings derived from the way the words themselves were constructed, let alone the complications that the different meanings of a word brings. So don't go around saying, "Well, this line clearly means 'xxxx'" because nothing is clear about prophecy until it is finally fulfilled, and sometimes its not even clear then.

Actually, a number of times the meanings of prophecies have been clear long before they are fulfilled. If we can work out other things, why can't we work out this?

 

 

 

To finish, let me leave you with an example that satisfies the two lines of prophecy above, yet is a bit off the handle. Keep in mind I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory:

During 'The Last Battle' the shadow's Red-veiled Aiel engage the Dragon's black-veiled Aiel at Shayol Ghul in a struggle for death and survival. Subsequently, as the blood of the Dragon, spilt from the Dragon's people, drips and flows over the rocky wasteland, the grey/brown rocks of Shayol Ghul are stained.

Except it doesn't fulfill the prophecy - the Dragon's blood isn't spilt. And we know SG has black rocks.