What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Yosarian]

Except for those times where she secretly continued her dream training in spite of what the highly respected Wise One's opinions. Actions speak louder than words.

 

There is a running theme in these books where every single character who is being taught to channel or dreamwalk or whatever keeps trying to push faster and harder to learn and to do more while their teachers keep trying to slow them down to keep them safe. Basically every female channeler in the books goes through that cycle, and the more powerful and more significant ones go faster, they can't help theselves. Partly it's because it's all so addictive, partly it's just because they want to know. Also, I think it's because they come up so fast and develop on their own so much that they end up learning or rediscovering things that the rest of the White Tower doesn't know; they might never have discovered those things if they had gone through the slow step-by-step methodical training everyone else did.

 

If Egwene didn't push harder then was safe, both with channeling and with dreamwalking, she probably never would have learned everything she needed fast enough to save the world.

 

It's also interesting that in just a few books Egwene gets both sides of this; first she's the young channeler trying to push harder and faster then she should, and then she's on the other side of the coin when Nicola tries to use blackmail to push her own training faster and harder.

[elric]

every FEMALE single char is more accurate Yos :)

 

Perrin needed to be dragged into learning dreamwalking :)

and when he finally show interest his teacher help pushing him -> here a nightmare jump in and try to survive :)))

 

and i dont think the BT preach patience and safety in his curicilum :))

[Yosarian]

Oh, yeah; the male channalers are different, because they either have no training, or are Asha'men.

[Suttree]

For that matter, what exactly has she done as Amrylin of the re-united White Tower?

 

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters and her actions at times are reprehensible such as her treatment of Nyn in Tar while teaching her the dangers of being there(cough cough* trying to cover up her lie). What even her most ardent haters will not do however is attempt to invalidate her achievements or question her motivation in working for what she feels to be the greater good. This has been discussed many times before but to answer your question above with a few things off the top of my head you have her changing the age/admission requirements for AS, allowing them to retire into the Kin and most importantly the channeler exchange program. Considering how set the WT has become and what the positive repercussions from those moves will be they are nothing short of remarkable. The first and third changes alone will do more to better the failed institution that is the WT than anything that has happened in the last two thousand years.

 

That is not an epic change, it's something that should have been done centuries ago, and probably would have been had not the people in question been so invested in political backstabbing, double-dealing, and amassing personal power.

 

As I said above the WT is a failed institution. What people seem to forget however is they are still human. There are great ones, there are terrible ones, but mostly there are just average sisters out working for good in the world. Greens patrol the blight with their warders, Yellows use their eyes and ears to search out and heal outbreaks of disease and the like, Blues have their causes, Greys negotiate treaties and have averted numerous wars, Browns are a big part of the reason certain knowledge has survived, Whites....well Whites seem to be pretty much worthless. For all it's failings the WT has been one of the main forces against the Shadow for 3,000 years. Without them in the breaking or Trolloc Wars the world is already finished. As Moir said...

TFOH 15, What Can Be Learned From Dreams said:

 

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Suttree

[Yosarian]

I don't hate Egwene, personally. However, there was a period of time in the middle of the seires when all 3 women (Egwene, Elayne, and Nyv) annoyed me greatly to a point where I didn't like reading chapters about them the first time I read the series. They all improved over time, though.

[Entreri]

Nynaeve was quite annoying in the earlier books, but has improved greatly and now she is one my favourite characters. Elayne has become just tolerable. Egwene, maybe she can deliver in AMOL, but up to this point, she has been an ignorant and arrogant child.

[MasterAblar]

What vast and far reaching changes has she made, aside from one adjustment to tower law that prevents political backstabbing?

 

I neither particularly like nor dislike Egwene but I have to ask: how much do you expect her to accomplish in a single month? Not to mention a month in which she has to deal with Rand's announcement, Mesaana and the Black Ajah, and general preparations for the Last Battle. It's not like she isn't busy as hell already. And right now making drastic changes to the WT would be a pretty bad idea with the Last Battle on their doorstep. What they need right now more than anything else is stabiility.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Knivy]

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters

 

Of course, who could outshine Cads ;)

[Suttree]

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters

 

Of course, who could outshine Cads ;)

 

Ha! #3 on my list...

[Knivy]

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters

 

Of course, who could outshine Cads ;)

 

Ha! #3 on my list...

I know its off topic and im sorry for that, but who are your top five? Im interested.

[Suttree]

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters

 

Of course, who could outshine Cads ;)

 

Ha! #3 on my list...

I know its off topic and im sorry for that, but who are your top five? Im interested.

 

1. Mat

2. Logain

3. Cadsuane

4. Verin

5. Bashere

[Knivy]

As I said she is not in my top 5 characters

 

Of course, who could outshine Cads ;)

 

Ha! #3 on my list...

I know its off topic and im sorry for that, but who are your top five? Im interested.

 

1.Logain

2. Mat

3. Verin

4. Bashere

5. Collective Wise Ones

6. Cadsuane

 

Corrected it for you ;)

[elric]

Lan

Nyn

Perrin

Mat

Sureila

[MasterAblar]

1) Logain

2) Logain

3) Logain

4) Logain

5) Logain

[Suttree]

1) Logain

2) Logain

3) Logain

4) Logain

5) Logain

 

Rigging votes again I see?

[muddasssir]

yar sut we have had this discussion a million times at least well subtract few hundreds but we have all agreed that she has had a very shoddy character development both from RJ and BS. She was an unlikeable character right form the beginning, but so were so many other characters. I mean Mat would not have been among anyone's favorite character in first three books. For me at least his first best scene was his fight with Galad and Gawyn. Look at him I can bet he is among the top three characters for almost 90% of the posters. There are other characters like nyn, Siuan was very overbearing at the beginning, but she is again a well liked character now. I think it was ELRIC IN AN EARLIER POST WHO POINTED OUT QUITE RIGHTLY THAT EVERY CHARACTER HAS AN ALTER EGO THAT SERVES TO BRING HIM or her DOWN A COUPLE OF PEGS WHEN HE or she STARTS GETTING TOO BIG FOR HER BREACHES. Eggy on the other hand does not allow anyone that privilege. So the fans take it upon themselves to play that role

[MasterAblar]

1) Logain

2) Logain

3) Logain

4) Logain

5) Logain

 

Rigging votes again I see?

 

I was held at gunpoint...

[Feanor-X]

Yes I question Egwene's motivations. Egwene's motivation for anything has always been suspect. She changes her life's ambition too many times, too rapidly, for her motivations to be anything but suspect. It's probably what I hate about her the most. I cannot, and I repeat, cannot objectively say that Egwene's goal is the greater good for all of human kind. It seems far more likely that Egwene's driving motivation is and always has been the greater good of Egwene al'Vere.

 

changing the age/admission requirements for AS, allowing them to retire into the Kin and most importantly the channeler exchange program.

 

All of these things will expand the power and influence of the AS, which will also expand *gasp* the power and influence of Egwene. Her little "dream" of uniting all channelers under the banner of the White Tower showed up too abruptly to be coincidence (about three seconds after being named Amrylin), especially on the heels of her bargain with Elayne concerning AS interfering with the windfinders/wise ones.

 

She admits that she fully intends to bind both the Wise Ones and the Windfinders to the tower, no matter what they want (This is, in case of Amys and the other dreamwalkers, how she regularly treats dear friends). Why? Because she now holds the reigns of power within the Aes Sedai, and given recent political wrangling to ensure that she can't be deposed/replaced like her two immediate predecessors, will probably continue to do so for the next 300-odd years.

 

Then there is her treatment of Gawyne. This is the man that she proclaims to love, yet she constantly castigates him for desperately trying to keep her alive, for one simple reason - she sees his actions as undermining her power. After she bonds him, we are treated to the single most disgusting line in the entire series - "If she had known the depths of his devotion to her, she would have bonded him weeks ago." This is just sick. After everything Gawyne (the most whipped character in the series) has done for her, all of the confessions of undying love back and forth, she still needs that extra helping of power over the man she (supposedly) loves before she will begin to trust him.

 

Yes, I do question her motivations.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Feanor-X

[Yosarian]

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

[kght22]

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

[Suttree]

Yes I question Egwene's motivations. Egwene's motivation for anything has always been suspect. She changes her life's ambition too many times, too rapidly, for her motivations to be anything but suspect. It's probably what I hate about her the most. I cannot, and I repeat, cannot objectively say that Egwene's goal is the greater good for all of human kind. It seems far more likely that Egwene's driving motivation is and always has been the greater good of Egwene al'Vere.

 

Well it's obvious that you "cannot objectively" judge the character, that has been very made clear. She was forced to consolidate power because she was shoved into being a puppet Amylrin. People were looking to control her much like the Seanchan did. Even with this we are literally hammered over the head with the weight she feels in uniting the WT so it is ready to face the shadow. I take it you haven't read the advance materials for AMoL where this is made even more clear. You would be far better served to argue that her faith in the WT as the group best equipped to lead the light against the shadow is wrong. At least with that you have some textual support.There is not one shred of evidence from any of her POVs that her motivation is based on personnel power like Elaida. What we do have are plenty of passages that shows clearly what her focus is...

 

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

All of these things will expand the power and influence of the AS, which will also expand *gasp* the power and influence of Egwene. Her little "dream" of uniting all channelers under the banner of the White Tower showed up too abruptly to be coincidence (about three seconds after being named Amrylin), especially on the heels of her bargain with Elayne concerning AS interfering with the windfinders/wise ones. She admits that she fully intends to bind both the Wise Ones and the Windfinders to the tower, no matter what they want (This is, in case of Amys and the other dreamwalkers, how she regularly treats dear friends).

 

Care to explain how the deal gives the AS an unfair advantage in being able to control the other groups and bind them to the WT? What part of the plan has a secret trap that binds them against their will and makes them subservient ? Hint: It those things don't exist, the deal is fair and is perhaps the single most important thing that has happened to the WT. Of course each group will be wrangling for position within the framework of the deal and they all know this going in hence the following "play best" quote(do you seriously think Sorilea and the WFs won't be trying to control things?), more importantly we see what the biggest initial factor is, and it has nothing to do with WT power, it's focus is yet again on the greater good...

 

ToM

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan. We have to—"

 

This deal will bring about massive cultural change and help bring them back in touch with the world. Further far from what you claim about Egwene only looking to advance the WT because it brings her more power, we see her address the reality of the situation.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Suttree

[Yosarian]

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

 

Well, that's true; those who would have to be tested will instead show up as sul'dam to the Senshean, and become trainers of damme instead. I'm not sure that's better, though.

[kght22]

Bringing more Aes Sedi into the White Tower by removing the age requirmenet, making the Kin almost an adjunct to the tower, and building a relationship with both the Wise Ones and the Sea Folk are all things that will help win the Last Battle and, even more, improve the balance of power with the Senshean afterwards. It seems pretty obvious that beating the Senshean is one of Egwene's main priorities here, and it should be.

 

Remember, all those women that the White Tower never bothered to test before because they're too old, still would be tested and collered by the Senshean if they get the chance.

actually those that would have to be tested to be found would not be found by the a'dam, it only finds those who spark, and sul'dam that have worked with damane for a period of time. they would likely to be found as damane though. but only those who have sparked (or learned somewhere already) would be collared.

 

Well, that's true; those who would have to be tested will instead show up as sul'dam to the Senshean, and become trainers of damme instead. I'm not sure that's better, though.

most will already be too old for that particular test. they will only find sparkers and young non sparkers. they only test for sul'dam up to a certain age.

 

more sul'dam than damane, because all damane are sparkers, all sul'dam are not, and there are fewer who spark than have the ability, although that is questionable given how many the aes'sedai ignore, and they are the only source of info on that. and in the tower those who sparked are a minority, likely because they sparked near an aes sedai, who in general hang out around political power, not in the backwaters.

Edited October 25, 2012 by Testy al'Carr

[muddasssir]

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

[Suttree]

Yar we have had this discussion before I am sorry for repeating myself. Let us take a parallel We have already seen that Seafolk girl running away to join WT. How many novices have run to join SF or the aiels? Tar Valon is the greatest city in the world, how many young apprentices will not carry the memory of it with them back to their ships and sandy hovels how many of them will be able to resist it? If you do not believe me look at the stats from Africa and Asia to US and Europe. We do not even have a comparable fraction of people moving from US and Europe to Africa or Asia. She is counting on exactly that effect to hold the hearts and minds of future WOs and SF channelers. That was exactly what she alluded to when she said, "I will bind you with silk" or something to that effect. Now try reading them together that she will want to come these provincial young women to world's greatest metropolis and she wants her sophisticated initiates to go live in their hovels and ships. I for one cannot read it as a benevolent move to promote harmony and peace and understanding.

 

You have already been thoroughly disabused of this notion many times over, by numerous people in the past. Honestly if that is the best you can come up with in stating the deal is not fair why even join in the debate? First off are you forgetting that they MUST return to their people for a time to combat this very thing happening. Second WFs and their deep rooted love of the sea will not be tempted by a metropolis in the slightest, Aiel with their sense of honor and love of clan will not want to abadon their people. If anyting I see AS realizing there are better options for them as we are already seeing with the ones who were forced to be apprentices. How many of both groups decided to abandon their people and stay in Andor after being stationed there for a time? If what you say is true we would have seen at least one or two.

 

As for the Sea Folk girl your claim is totally irrelevant(not to mention it was totally unique) as now she we will have an equal opportunity to learn from both AS and WOs. There is no reason to run away. If you can't see the benefit in an AS accepted having to be placed in those other cultures to learn about the world and how that will change the WT for the better I don't know what to tell you Mudd.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Suttree