What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Suttree]

Come on people you are smart people I have seen the evidence on other post. This is a favorite trick of Egwene lovers they are going to degenerate the debate into a tiny hole and than everyone is going to be talking about that and forgetting the big picture. We do not hate Eggy because she is going to oppose Rand at FoM. I think that time has come to wrap up this debate. I think that without meaning to authors have managed to show her as a power hungry, self centered and stupid little bitch. there are countless examples and incidents that prove this if you do not believe it more power to you as for Elan's post. He had to go through that phase of dark Rand to emerge on the other side there are lots of foreshadowing to this effect with wolves, prophecies and fore tellings.

 

wahey we have a lahori here. 'kaysa hai'

 

Anyways you say egwene is power hungry. Do you think a power hungry leader would have an exchange program with the wise ones and the windfinders? Do you think a power hungry leader would take a red, a faction that was loyal to elaida as her keeper? do you think a power hungry leader would berate her own keeper on the dangers of working with male channellers. do you think a power hungry leader wouldnt mind sharing angreal and other objects of power with other female channellers outside Aes sedai organisation? do you think a power hungry leader would suddenly tense, coil up and become a trembling person when offered the position of amyrlin at salidar?

 

If that is a defintion of a power hungry leader then the world needs more of them

 

It doesn't happen too often, so I would just like to say that I fully agree with Elan here. Egwene is ambitious yes, but she's not power hungry.

 

Would just like to say I appreciate that rather often you are a voice of reason MA.

[randsc]

She's not hungry for personal power. She is hungry for greater power for her organization. That may be realistic, and even appropriate for someone in her position, but there is no reason we have to find it endearing. The Captains-General of the Whitecloaks may not all have been hungering for personal power either. So what?

[Datakim]

but why did the pattern allow him to be captured like a common criminal in book 6?

 

The kidnapping had to happen so that the following events such as Aes Sedai kneeling and swearing allegiance to Rand happened too. If what happened to Rand had not happened, he would never have demanded that the AS kneel to him, and the prophecy about the "Unstained tower bending knee to the forgotten sign (Rands symbol)" would never have come to pass, which would have screwed things up. This time however, Rand has to be free and maybe he somehow senses it now, which is why he was so confident going into the tower. Another possibility is that Rands ta'veren effect was probably far weaker back in book 6, since he had not attained the level of "enlightenment" that he has now. It may also be that the presence of members of black ajah in the kidnap group allowed the DO to "subvert" the pattern to a degree. One would presume the DO can protect his followers from ta'veren, or Moridin will just trip in the final battle and accidentally snap his neck in the fall. Ofcourse there were no black ajah in the groups holding Rand in the latest book, since by then they had been driven from the tower.

[Durinax]

 

1. False. Her end goal as evidenced by her inner thoughts about the responsibility she bears is to face the Shadow and reform the WT. Just one example of many...

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

You can argue that she is misguided in thinking AS are best equipped to do this but that is a different conversation entirely. As for continued channeling domination Egwene claims flat out those days are gone and with the channeling exchange program has placed everyone on equal ground. Not exactly the actions of someone who wants to ensure "domination". If you truly believe these things back them up with quotes as I have done instead of tossing hyperbole about. Again she has done more to positively change the WT in her short time than anyone since the Trolloc Wars.

In your quote I noticed a number of things 1) the word tie the monarchs to the White Tower, 2) she assumes they will automatically support her

 

I will focus on 2 since I have the most coherent thoughts on that one

 

that is one of my major irritating points when it comes to egwene, she automatically assumes she is right, and that people will follow her.

[Suttree]

1. False. Her end goal as evidenced by her inner thoughts about the responsibility she bears is to face the Shadow and reform the WT. Just one example of many...

ToM

Obliquely, she realized what she was doing. She was using Rand's proclamation as a beacon by which to gather and tie the monarchs to the White Tower. They would come to support her arguments against breaking the seals. But in the end, they would serve humankind in the Last Battle.

 

You can argue that she is misguided in thinking AS are best equipped to do this but that is a different conversation entirely. As for continued channeling domination Egwene claims flat out those days are gone and with the channeling exchange program has placed everyone on equal ground. Not exactly the actions of someone who wants to ensure "domination". If you truly believe these things back them up with quotes as I have done instead of tossing hyperbole about. Again she has done more to positively change the WT in her short time than anyone since the Trolloc Wars.

In your quote I noticed a number of things 1) the word tie the monarchs to the White Tower, 2) she assumes they will automatically support her

 

I will focus on 2 since I have the most coherent thoughts on that one

 

that is one of my major irritating points when it comes to egwene, she automatically assumes she is right, and that people will follow her.

 

Right that is exactly why I said she is not "power hungry", she is doing it to fight the Shadow. AS have been the major force holding the Shadow at bay for three thousand years, although other groups may be more effective at this point, you can't fault the Amrylin for thinking the duty falls on her.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Suttree

[Maleshub]

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

 

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

 

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

Edited April 3, 2012 by Theodril

[condonmc]

Arent we forgeting that Rand has acess to a differant kind of power.........Besides Egwene says and i quote

 

"I doubt we could have held him," Egwene said. "There's somthing about him. I ....I had the sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle.".........

 

So gals were is your argument coming from.....p.s. I HATE this thread ........Jan 8 will show us all....

[muddasssir]

Which side is she serving as for that they are going to serve at TG. Well, Darlin had his orders from Rand that he has to prepare for TG I do not remember the book but it was after he came back from Arad Doman, Elayne was alreauy focused on TG, Perrin's force was already focused. If anything, only force that was Not focused on TG was Egwene's WT. Again typical behavior, very quotes you make show her to be power hungry and mad with lust for more power. For example, exchange program is nothing more than her attempt to bring all the channelers under the influence of Wt it has already been discussed to death when she says I'll bind you with lace. Again FoM is an attempt to break rulers away from Rand and attach them to herself. You people have even endorsed her taking personal oaths of fealty from those sisters holding Lan when she condemns Elaida for contemplating them. I mean why Rand gas to listen to every one with two penny but she must have absolute power over Hall whose very purpose is to balance the power of Amyrilin. Again if you care to read what I had written, I said without meaning to authors have written her like that.

Edited April 3, 2012 by muddasssir

[Suttree]

Again typical behavior, very quotes you make show her to be power hungry and mad with lust for more power.

 

Ermmm what are you taking about? Even people that don't like Egwene have admitted she is trying consolidate forces to face the Shadow at TG. After all, that is what is written in the text. She states flat out she is gathering the groups for the meeting and TG, not for some personnel gain. Her inner thoughts have shown the responsibility she feels in facing the Shadow and changing the WT for the better. Here is another quote to add on to others provided.

TGS

 

Saerin nodded. “I think that might be why you deserve it,” she said. “I doubt anything in the histories will compare to the days ahead. I suspect that, in the future, scholars will look back on our days and judge them to be more difficult—more trying of mind, body and soul—than the Time of Madness or the Breaking itself.”

“Then it’s a good thing the world has us, isn’t it?” Egwene asked.

 

She feels the weight of that responsibility in dealing with the toughest time since the Breaking and is working for the overall good of the world.

 

Honestly you erroneously complain about something(saying she never said she would listen to Rand, power hungry, etc) we prove what you claim false with textual evidence and instead of offering any rebuttal you go off on another crazy, expletive filled rant. Pull it together man.

 

For example, exchange program is nothing more than her attempt to bring all the channelers under the influence of Wt it has already been discussed to death when she says I'll bind you with lace.

 

It has been discussed to death and nearly everyone has agreed the deal is fair and balanced. Please explain to us anyway this deal gives the AS a leg up or an unfair advantage to control the other groups? It will foster trust, understanding and unity while being yet another reform that will change the stagnant AS culture for the better.

 

I mean why Rand gas to listen to every one with two penny but she must have absolute power over Hall whose very purpose is to balance the power of Amyrilin. Again if you care to read what I had written, I said without meaning to authors have written her like that.

 

What absolute power over the Hall? What? After she was forced into the position of being a puppet Amrylin she used those oaths to gain a foothold. Same with the war time powers she enacted. Now that she is more secure in the position she doesn't need it anymore and she does not have total power over the hall, that is false. In fact she calls them down at the end of TGS for not being enough of a check on the Amrylin's power.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Suttree

[SuperFade]

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

 

By this point Rand has fully embraced his role as the savior of the world. His power is on an entirely different level that it was when he was shielded before - the old Rand would never have been able to destroy tens of thousands of trollocs by himself without a sangreal of some kind. That's without going into the whole ta'veren-pattern issue. Egwene has held the Oath Rod by this point, so what she says can only be what she truly believes - that she does not believe they could have held Rand there by force, regardless of whether or not he was shielded by a circle of thirteen.

[Suttree]

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

 

By this point Rand has fully embraced his role as the savior of the world. His power is on an entirely different level that it was when he was shielded before - the old Rand would never have been able to destroy tens of thousands of trollocs by himself without a sangreal of some kind. That's without going into the whole ta'veren-pattern issue. Egwene has held the Oath Rod by this point, so what she says can only be what she truly believes - that she does not believe they could have held Rand there by force, regardless of whether or not he was shielded by a circle of thirteen.

 

Funny thing is this Brandon quote would seem to say Rand has been powered up since KoD and he does offer a hint on the topic of being possibly able break a shield...

 

LOIALSON

 

Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

 

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

Edited April 3, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

but why did the pattern allow him to be captured like a common criminal in book 6?

 

It started a sequence of events with Rand forcing the proud AS to kneel before him. Pattern decided that.

[XXX]

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

 

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

 

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

 

Rand walked into the Borderland camp with 13 AS there.I do not remember whether it was out of the effect of the "the guardian" ter'angreal but Cads was surprised that Rand seems unconcerned. Either he knows he cannot be shielded anymore due to his tavern influence or he knows that if worse comes to worse he will use the TP to blast his way through.

[Suttree]

Rand walked into the Borderland camp with 13 AS there.I do not remember whether it was out of the effect of the "the guardian" ter'angreal but Cads was surprised that Rand seems unconcerned.

 

It was within the effect of the Guardian and he was unconcerned because it doesn't stop the TP. We have nothing to say that would work with a shield IRC. Although BS quote above could be hinting at that.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Were they still within the Guardian when he was negotiating with the Borderland rulers on them swearing fealty to him in exchange for their AS being taught how to travel?

[Suttree]

Were they still within the Guardian when he was negotiating with the Borderland rulers on them swearing fealty to him in exchange for their AS being taught how to travel?

 

I always assumed so as they are negotiating in the Borderlander camp which was set up inside the Guardian's area.

[muddasssir]

Suttree my man I have high hopes for you. I mean that no one have lived in the shadow of Egwene love long enough to not be able to come back in light. As usual you managed to answer all the things that I did not ask. I mean, I was asking that all the forces of light were already working towards TG except WT and there is a lot of textual evidence to support that and you give me a long wind about how everyone agrees on something that no one agrees to. I mean that they think that it is going to be more balanced, can you imagine that someone going from LA to live in a village from a third world country say in sub Saharan Africa will find it attractive to live there and enjoy it more than they do living in LA. Similarly, if someone from a third world country like say Somalia gets a chance to go live in LA will like to go back to his shack in Somalia? My answer to that question us no. Proof is that you can go and look at the immigration stats. lot more people migrate into the U.S.A than out of it. She is depending on something similar. I t is beautifully written by BS as there is a line in there where she suggests that they go back to there people after they are done with there training and can return if they want to and no one will stop them. In fact we all know that both BS and RJ borrow from both history and myths and there are lots of examples of similar exchange programs in history where powerful governments set up exchange programs with weaker governments or ones they have subjugated. Resulting in the weaker nations being subverted by the rulers who were trained by the ruling elite. If you care you can take a look at the history of Imperial Britain and Tzarist Russia as a convenient example.

[Elan Tedronai]

but why did the pattern allow him to be captured like a common criminal in book 6?

 

It started a sequence of events with Rand forcing the proud AS to kneel before him. Pattern decided that.

 

Pattern decided rand should have an ego boost? by having worthless elaida followers kneel to him? What a sad state of affairs. Once he wore the ring of tamyrlin and was first amongst servants. He summoned the nine rods of dominion.

whereas now he is forced to rely on meagre scraps. His own ashaman are split into three factions with one third of them darkfriends. What a joke.

Even now with tarmon gaidon around the corner he is cant get the female leadership of the aes sedai to follow him. LMAO Ofcourse one can say he doesnt need them to seal the bore but all that kneel or you will knelt makes no difference to the grand scheme of things.

 

 

In the end once the bore is sealed, al thor will retire to the dustbin of history.

 

Regardless, the books make it clear that no one can break a circle of 13. So, Egwene could have held Rand captive if she wanted to.

 

I, on the other hand, just assumed that Egwene was subconsciously recognizing that the pattern would not allow that, not that she actually thought that Rand could break through shielding by 26 sisters. I mean, if she tried to give the order, who knows what would have happened? Perhaps a chunk of poorly repaired ceiling would break and hit her in the head, knocking her out. Perhaps all 26 sisters would spontaneously decide to swear fealty to the Dragon (or maybe just the two leading the circles).

 

Exactly. We already have evidence of that sort of twisting of the Pattern, with Cads. Egwene could not have held him.

 

Wonderful. On the one hand we have textual evidence that a circle of 13 can hold any channeler; and we have LTT in the box and prior to that raving mad against a circle of 13 as impossible to break. And on the other, that is brushed aside; and we have your assumption that Egwene was afraid that pattern would intervene to prevent her from holding him. You don't even consider Egwene's thoughts on why she shouldn't hold him (hypocrisy after what she told Elaida).

 

You cannot fathom the idea that Egwene let him go of her own free will because she trusted him to show up at the meeting to discuss his plan. And that despite the text pointing in that direction. Amazing that to some people, the woman can do no right no matter what!

 

Rand walked into the Borderland camp with 13 AS there.I do not remember whether it was out of the effect of the "the guardian" ter'angreal but Cads was surprised that Rand seems unconcerned. Either he knows he cannot be shielded anymore due to his tavern influence or he knows that if worse comes to worse he will use the TP to blast his way through.

 

13 aes sedai will block you from any source of the channelling. One power was confirmed by LTT in book 6 and true power by moridin in book 7.

 

 

 

Suttree my man I have high hopes for you. I mean that no one have lived in the shadow of Egwene love long enough to not be able to come back in light. As usual you managed to answer all the things that I did not ask. I mean, I was asking that all the forces of light were already working towards TG except WT and there is a lot of textual evidence to support that and you give me a long wind about how everyone agrees on something that no one agrees to. I mean that they think that it is going to be more balanced, can you imagine that someone going from LA to live in a village from a third world country say in sub Saharan Africa will find it attractive to live there and enjoy it more than they do living in LA. Similarly, if someone from a third world country like say Somalia gets a chance to go live in LA will like to go back to his shack in Somalia? My answer to that question us no. Proof is that you can go and look at the immigration stats. lot more people migrate into the U.S.A than out of it. She is depending on something similar. I t is beautifully written by BS as there is a line in there where she suggests that they go back to there people after they are done with there training and can return if they want to and no one will stop them. In fact we all know that both BS and RJ borrow from both history and myths and there are lots of examples of similar exchange programs in history where powerful governments set up exchange programs with weaker governments or ones they have subjugated. Resulting in the weaker nations being subverted by the rulers who were trained by the ruling elite. If you care you can take a look at the history of Imperial Britain and Tzarist Russia as a convenient example.

 

so many assumptions. Have you read the entire passage on the exchange programe between all three groups? You do realise that all of them are sending their best students right? And free mixing of knowldge. What makes you think the other two groups are inferior to the Aes sedai? Some of the sea folk channellers are more versatile and more powerful than people like nynaeve for example.

 

A power hungry leader would ensure only their organisation reigns supreme. Working with 2 other groups and berating her own keeper who was questioning working with the ashaman is certainly not.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[XXX]

Al Thor will retire to the dustbin of history? lol. The dragon will be remembered a whole lot more than a 2 bit amyrlin like Egwene in history. The Dragon is the most important soul in the last 2 ages.

Edited April 4, 2012 by XXX47

[Suttree]

Suttree my man I have high hopes for you. I mean that no one have lived in the shadow of Egwene love long enough to not be able to come back in light.

 

First off to be clear, Egwene is not one of my top five favorite characters. Most people know that the ant-Egwene hyperbole just drives me crazy because most of the more extreme views have little basis in the text. I am just as harsh at times(admittedly the need is far less often, just look at how many anti-Egwene threads there are) on some of the pro-Egwene fans when they make outlandish claims.

 

I mean, I was asking that all the forces of light were already working towards TG except WT and there is a lot of textual evidence to support that and you give me a long wind about how everyone agrees on something that no one agrees to.

 

Errr everyone in this thread has agreed that Egwene's goal is to fight the shadow except you. I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. The WT has done more over the last three thousand years than any other group to face the Shadow. Once again, stop spouting off your skewed personnel opinion. If there is textual evidence for what you are trying to say(although a number of your claims like Egwene didn't say they would discuss the seals at the FoM have already been proven wrong) by all means post it as I have done. You can not keep making wild accusations without offering anything to support your claims.

 

I mean that they think that it is going to be more balanced, can you imagine that someone going from LA to live in a village from a third world country say in sub Saharan Africa will find it attractive to live there and enjoy it more than they do living in LA. Similarly, if someone from a third world country like say Somalia gets a chance to go live in LA will like to go back to his shack in Somalia? My answer to that question us no. Proof is that you can go and look at the immigration stats. lot more people migrate into the U.S.A than out of it. She is depending on something similar. I t is beautifully written by BS as there is a line in there where she suggests that they go back to there people after they are done with there training and can return if they want to and no one will stop them.

 

Why would you think that the Aiel and Sea Folk cultures are inferior to AS? Somalia to LA? LOL!!! I mean Tar Valon is a nice place but by no means will it make channelers forsake their culture and family merely to stay there. You have not given me the slightest reason how the exchange program gives the AS some unfair advantage(hint: it doesn't). Even worse you say Egwene "suggests" they can go home and no one will stop them as if it's not true? That is the point of the whole thing. Accepted go to train with WFs, WFs got to the Aiel, Aiel go to AS etc, they all learn the best aspects of each culture and then bring it home to foster trust and understanding. This will do more than any other reform over the last three thousand years to change the culture of the WT for the better. How insidious!!!

 

The fact that you can take something that was so obviously written to be a progressive reform and attempt to give it a negative spin really says all we need to know. If you want to keep debating try supporting your interpretation with evidence and stick to one topic. Every time you get proven wrong you jump to some other inane rant. It comes across as somewhat unhinged to be honest.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Suttree

[Elan Tedronai]

Al Thor will retire to the dustbin of history? lol. The dragon will be remembered a whole lot more than a 2 bit amyrlin like Egwene in history. The Dragon is the most important soul in the last 2 ages.

 

Can't even get a 2 bit amyrlin to follow him. The ring of tamyrlin seems far far away. how the mighty have fallen. get ready for the end of AMOL when rand scurries off to the sunset with min while egwene rules the world with logain.

[ironisles]

Al Thor will retire to the dustbin of history? lol. The dragon will be remembered a whole lot more than a 2 bit amyrlin like Egwene in history. The Dragon is the most important soul in the last 2 ages.

 

Can't even get a 2 bit amyrlin to follow him. The ring of tamyrlin seems far far away. how the mighty have fallen. get ready for the end of AMOL when rand scurries off to the sunset with min while egwene rules the world with logain.

 

Elan your hubris is showing again...

[randsc]

Not his hubris, his exceptionally weak troll-fu. He used to be much better at trolling. How the mighty have fallen.

[Elan Tedronai]

C;mon. Am i really that transparent nowadays?

 

back to the drawing board i guess

 

:p

Edited April 4, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[muddasssir]

OK Suttree and all of you people who support Egwene here is the deal. Before I get on with the main post there is a little aside never said that Egwene is not going to fight on the side of light . In fact if you go back and take a look. I have posted somewhere that she is going to be integral to the win at TG. In fact, i have maintained throughout that none of Rand's harem is going to be there at final strike at SG. Its going to be the original Fellowship that left from two rivers who are going to do it. Anyways getting back to the main reason for posting. I mean let me clear one more thing I really like and respect suttree. When I am addressing suttree I am usually talking to the whole bunch. So, its nothing personal. Here is the deal. you see that I have started getting on your nerves let me recant that I have started irritating you. You do not know me, you have no idea what kind of person I am or who I am but you still feel irritated by my comments. In reality I should not matter to you but it does not happen that way. You feel honor bound to defend Eggy the bitch "I am not that reasonable that i am going to take that back". Maybe out of loyalty to RJ or for any number of reasons. Why not you people credit the fact that we find her an insult to our intelligence. I mean I have already said it a million times that i love RJ's writing. I think that he is the best fantasy writer since Tolkien but Egwene is a very poorly written character. In order to enjoy fantasy, you have to have a suspension of disbelief. For me what makes these books so much fun is that I do not need suspension of disbelief as much as with other books. I can enjoy the story almost as if it is not a fantasy. It is one of the main reasons that these books readership transcends genres. I know a lot of Wot fans who do not read fantasy normally and they just love wot. Egwene's story arc depends entirely on suspension of disbelief. You have to take things simply because they are for no rational reason, unlike rest of the story. It means that as soon as eggy comes on screen I mentally switch off. I know that you are going to say that is not completely rational but you people getting irritated on my comments on eggy. Well, I won't comment on that. So, you will be wondering what is the purpose of the long wind? One very simple thing you are irritated by me and I do not object on it, you are perfectly within your right t do that. Then why am I not allowed t be irritated by eggy?