Who thinks Rand is insane?

[r2debo]

I am interested in the community's official stance on this topic.

[condonmc]

Rand is so insane by this point that he is making very sane decisions and saying very sane-wise things....what.?

[Kadere]

If you're talking about ToM then no, he's no longer insane. He was genuinely insane, but hasn't been since Veins of Gold. I'm pretty sure Nynaeve checking him in ToM and seeing how his insanity is held back by the veins of gold prove this.

[Terez]

He was never really insane in the first place. Just crazy. There's a difference. Insane is killing everyone you love and tripping over your wife's dead body while calling her name and wondering where the hell she went.

 

So, Rand's not crazy any more. He's more of an unwitting psychopath. He's been thinking Moridin's thoughts for a few books now, and has no clue.

[Finnssss22]

 

So, Rand's not crazy any more. He's more of an unwitting psychopath. He's been thinking Moridin's thoughts for a few books now, and has no clue.

 

An interesting theory but is there really enough evidence to conclude it's as advanced as actually thinking his thoughts.

Feeling what Mordy feels and vice-verse seems very plausible but actually thinking his thoughts might be a stretch, no?

 

Not saying it's not a possibility, just wondering what specifics you're basing that off of.

[Terez]

So, Rand's not crazy any more. He's more of an unwitting psychopath. He's been thinking Moridin's thoughts for a few books now, and has no clue.

An interesting theory but is there really enough evidence to conclude it's as advanced as actually thinking his thoughts.

Feeling what Mordy feels and vice-verse seems very plausible but actually thinking his thoughts might be a stretch, no?

 

Not saying it's not a possibility, just wondering what specifics you're basing that off of.

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

“Taim will have to wait,” he said wearily. How long could Taim wait? He was surprised not to hear Lews Therin raging for him to kill the man. He wished that made him feel easier.

Totally clueless.

[Finnssss22]

So, Rand's not crazy any more. He's more of an unwitting psychopath. He's been thinking Moridin's thoughts for a few books now, and has no clue.

An interesting theory but is there really enough evidence to conclude it's as advanced as actually thinking his thoughts.

Feeling what Mordy feels and vice-verse seems very plausible but actually thinking his thoughts might be a stretch, no?

 

Not saying it's not a possibility, just wondering what specifics you're basing that off of.

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

“Taim will have to wait,” he said wearily. How long could Taim wait? He was surprised not to hear Lews Therin raging for him to kill the man. He wished that made him feel easier.

Totally clueless.

 

Wow really? I tried to be as polite as possible to not start any bullshit but apparently that's just not an option with you is it?

 

 

Too funny.

 

Either way, I'll admit it's an interesting albeit non-definitive interpretation of that single passage.

[Terez]

Totally clueless.

Wow really? I tried to be as polite as possible to not start any bullshit but apparently that's just not an option with you is it?

No, it's not an option with you [Removed]

 

Either way, I'll admit it's an interesting albeit non-definitive interpretation of that single passage.

It's the only logical interpretation of the passage. It's not Rand's thought, and it's not Lews Therin's thought. It's one of the early clues of the merge, and of course, everyone missed it...until KOD came out and the identity of the 'other one' was confirmed

[rand4747]

He seemed to have picked up some from Moridin/Ishmael but I think most of Rands actions were the insanity, he just had been gaining a bit of Moridins thoughts. Ishmael/Moridin was mostly insane anyway although on becoming Moridin it seems to have lessened somewhat.

 

But whatever the insanity was its gone after VoG, Rand is still quite strange couse hes got all these old memorys from lews therin and at least early on after VoG he had ones before that even. I think his strangeness is just to do with the revelation he had, he seems to recover after a bit of time though.

[Terez]

Well, that appears to be what we are supposed to believe...that all is well now, and the danger is past. But there are several clues in TOM that all is not well. Most of them are debatable, like Rand's continuing cold treatment of Cadsuane (which some could interpret as only right, and some could interpret as Brandon allowing his own prejudices to seep in). His arrogance when it comes to breaking the seals (particularly in his thoughts in that lone POV). And then the dream, which indicates (along with Min's viewing) that they are still linked. And the fact that he's still linked to the True Power, and simply chooses not to use it for the moment.

 

So, agreed that the madness is gone, but the 'strangeness' probably has at least a little bit to do with Moridin.

[Terez]

[Removed]

[XoMeltdownoX]

I am not certain what is really happening with Rand, but I have to agree Terez. We are meant to believe he is all Zen Rand, but something very strange is going on. I am not ready to post any theories yet, but I am certain we are in for a surprise.

[Finnssss22]

[Removed]

That's too funny. Considering your animosity towards me started way back when you tried to assert that Demandred wrote "Fog and Steel" and all I said was that is was a stretch. I didn't even laugh at you like some others did. [Removed]

 

I tried to be as polite as possible in this thread, I have apologized openly before for missing something you said in a post and when you were looking for a resource for what characters made their first appearance in tGS, I tweeted one to you.

As far as the boss at TL, we talked and I have held my word from that both there and here since.

[Removed]

 

I lost all my animosity towards you after my talk with the TL boss. [Removed]

 

Anyway, good luck and good health.

Cheers

[Terez]

That's too funny. Considering your animosity towards me started way back when you tried to assert that Demandred wrote "Fog and Steel"

See, I never did that. [Removed]

 

I tried to be as polite as possible in this thread, I have apologized openly before for missing something you said in a post and when you were looking for a resource for what characters made their first appearance in tGS, I tweeted one to you.

Yeah, and that had nothing to do with wanting to show me that you knew something I didn't know.

 

[Removed]

[Removed]

[yoniy0]

Guys, it's pretty clear to me that this whole argument started when Terez said Rand was clueless about Moridin's thoughts, and Finssss thought she was talking about him.

Regardless, you should both know how to avoid these situations by now. In the future, just disengage. Simple as that. Your complaints should be sent to a moderator/Luckers, not posted here (and this goes for everyone reading, not just these two).

 

I don't think this pole should be closed because of this argument, so please stop.

[Kahsm]

He was never really insane in the first place. Just crazy. There's a difference. Insane is killing everyone you love and tripping over your wife's dead body while calling her name and wondering where the hell she went.

 

That's what I've been saying! But of course no one jumps all over Terez when she says it... just poor old Kael Pyralis who's obviously just trolling.

[Terez]

He was never really insane in the first place. Just crazy. There's a difference. Insane is killing everyone you love and tripping over your wife's dead body while calling her name and wondering where the hell she went.

That's what I've been saying! But of course no one jumps all over Terez when she says it... just poor old Kael Pyralis who's obviously just trolling.

And it wasn't even me. But I don't see why anyone would accuse you of trolling for saying that Rand wasn't precisely insane, so long as you acknowledged the fact that he was, in fact, rather nuts.

[yoniy0]

Bear in mind, that not everyone here is a native speaker. These distinctions, trust me, aren't as clear to us. If you said he wasn't insane and didn't specify (as Terez said), some (myself included) wouldn't understand where you're coming from.

[Terez]

Well, it's not exactly a legitimate distinction anyway. 'Insane' is a strictly legal term denoting someone who can't distinguish between right and wrong (like Lews Therin), but the field of psychology has distanced itself from the term. I have a feeling that RJ was aware of that particular controversy, especially as it relates to the insanity plea.

[ShowMeYourRage]

I think he is sane. But only because of milky white brain syndrome. I do not think hearing Lews Therin was his only insanity. The wild mind stuff doesnt happen any more. And hes always aware of what hes doing. Before he would be muttering under his breath. He even started acting like Moridin which was a new layer to the madness in and of itself. Even though he got over the Dragon Reborn hardness thing and even though he got rid of the voice he still has all the black shards in his mind which seems clearly to do with the Taint, but Nyn said the milky stuff protects him from it. He made some progress on Dragonmount, but the Taints effects means he should still be insane. Yet he isnt.

[Kahsm]

He was never really insane in the first place. Just crazy. There's a difference. Insane is killing everyone you love and tripping over your wife's dead body while calling her name and wondering where the hell she went.

That's what I've been saying! But of course no one jumps all over Terez when she says it... just poor old Kael Pyralis who's obviously just trolling.

And it wasn't even me. But I don't see why anyone would accuse you of trolling for saying that Rand wasn't precisely insane, so long as you acknowledged the fact that he was, in fact, rather nuts.

 

While I certainly don't believe he's "insane" like LTT, the real question, and where we may diverge, is what made him "nuts" or "crazy". I took the very literal quote from Sanderson where he talks about Rand's state-of-mind and says, "It's the immense pressure that's doing this.". Which, to me, means it's not the taint... taint makes you insane, not crazy as we see Rand. Pressure, and possibly unexplained memeories/voices floating around in your head, could make someone crazy, flippant, angry, yadda yadda.

 

Then again that quote also says "going insane", which suggests he would have ended up there eventually despite the source. Which is fine, still doesn't mean the taint did it. Rand's looniness just seems so mundane.

[ShowMeYourRage]

He was never really insane in the first place. Just crazy. There's a difference. Insane is killing everyone you love and tripping over your wife's dead body while calling her name and wondering where the hell she went.

That's what I've been saying! But of course no one jumps all over Terez when she says it... just poor old Kael Pyralis who's obviously just trolling.

And it wasn't even me. But I don't see why anyone would accuse you of trolling for saying that Rand wasn't precisely insane, so long as you acknowledged the fact that he was, in fact, rather nuts.

 

While I certainly don't believe he's "insane" like LTT, the real question, and where we may diverge, is what made him "nuts" or "crazy". I took the very literal quote from Sanderson where he talks about Rand's state-of-mind and says, "It's the immense pressure that's doing this.". Which, to me, means it's not the taint... taint makes you insane, not crazy as we see Rand.

 

Well now you're arguing semantics. How is Rand crazy then, if he isnt insane? Rand was never "crazy"; for the longest time he was very rational. VERY rational. Quite possibly more rational than any of the other characters would have been if they were under such pressure. That isnt crazy. Plus, preasure doesnt make you talk out loud when you think you're thinking to a dead guy in your head. Nor does pressure make you climb to the top of a mast without realizing you'd done it til you were at the top. It wasnt pressure that made Rand kill his own men with Callandor, amplified Tainty wild mindness did. That never happened early on because Rand was saner, less infected by the Taint.

[Thrasymachus]

Rand's bonkers. Crazy as a march hare. And he didn't become any more sane after Veins of Gold, just a different kind of crazy. Maybe the kind of crazy you need to be to save the world from Evil Incarnate.

 

And the taint certainly contributed to Rand's insanity. Kael likes to pull out that little quote as if it's somehow definitive, ignoring the fact that there are other quotes that definitively prove the opposite, that the taint was one of many causal factors in Rand's craziness.

 

Interview: Oct 27th, 2009

BYU: TGS Midnight Release - Matt Hatch preliminary report (Paraphrased)

Matt Hatch

Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon Sanderson

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

[Sharaman]

The key here may not be the semantics of "insane" vs "crazy".

I think what's important is that Rand is apparently more capable of rational organised thought and that he has much more self-control post VoG.

The closest he comes to losing it in ToM is at Maradon and even there. it's a cold calculated risk. He figurs he can destroy the invasion force and get away even though he'll be exhausted.

There are no other incidents of anger - not when confronting Weiramon or the Borderlanders or Egwene.

Contrast that with his uncontrollable rage in earlier books.

[r2debo]

Thanks all for participating in this poll. The subject of Rand's insanity and the mixed opinions on the subject throughout the years has been an interesting journey for me.

 

When I first started reading the books, back in 1994, I was 16 and I simply could not comprehend a protagonist suffering like Rand suffered. His mental state to me was always reasonable considering the stresses he was under and the voice of LTT seemed plausible to me under the rules of WOT concerning reincarnation. That said, at that time Luke Skywalker was my hero. :) So, it was difficult for me to accept that my friend Rand was destroying people and he was unaware that it was in large part due to his insanity.

 

Now that I have come some ways, it has been easier for me to see and accept Rand as he is. I was not a fan of messiness and Rand's mind was a mess. Now that I work with folks that have some serious mental disorders themselves, I have also grown to have compassion for such a state.

 

What is truly unique and remarkable to me with this story, at this point in my life, is how someone with such obvious mental instability is given such extreme power and still be able to steer that huge ship toward a fairly sane star.

 

Thanks again everyone!