IWW 2012 - It's a (Wo)man's Job

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Not saying anyone here is, per say, but frankly I'd say its ridiculous if any woman attacked/condemned/spoke out against that kind of feeling a man has. As EP said, its right and natural. Again, religion comes in to play in that. I'm willing to bet most hardcore feminists aren't religious/gdont believe in creation/dont care what other people say their role in life is even if its God that's saying it (not neccessarily my view, not trying to push God on anyone, just making a point).

[Niamh Sedai]

I do feel that it is something culturally enforced. A man who doesn't protect a woman is seen as weak... as is a man who hurts a woman. Don't get me wrong, I do not see anything wrong with this view point. But I do dislike it when men view themselves as utterly necessary to a woman's task or well-being.

 

For example, I had a new desk delivered to my apartment on a Friday night. The next morning, my friend, D came over. He put together my desk for me because he wanted to. He has since bragged about how I needed his help to build my desk. I didn't, but he offered and as I had other stuff to do I said yes. The fact that he felt that I needed his help because I'm a girl frustrated me greatly. There a difference between forcing your aid or help on a women because you perceive her to be in some way weak, than in helping a person because you care and respect them. I think the issue with modern day male/female relations is this.

 

Men and Women should help each other. Like any relationship, the roles between the genders should be sembiotic, just like Ying and Yang. Help should be reciprocated both ways. I fully believe in men being polite to women and I find women who are nasty to guys who are simply being respectful to be incredibly rude. But I do take exception to be percieved to be weaker just because of my Gender and I get irritated by men and women who think the job of a man is to protect and the role of the women is to be protected. The role of all men and women in any relationship whether it be familial, friendship or romantic is to support and be there for the other person in any way necessary.

 

And that's how Nia sees it.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Believe it or not there was a discussion on this in the metro (free newspaper) they have a section where people can text in about various articles, and often they end up answering each other. Just today, one guy text in this:

 

The last time I stood up to offer a girl my seat on the train, she accused me of being sexist. I wont be doing it again (although I always stand up for old people)

[Sunrise Lord]

As a male, I feel this sort of "gut" instinct--it is by no means a product of my religion--to protect a female. Now, I'm not saying that all members of the opposite gender need protecting. My mother, and a vast majority of the women I know and have met, have no real need for that protection from me; I just feel on a primal level that I should. I don't know why. I feel the same way about children. I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and equate the feeling with what I've seen and been told a mother feels when her child is threatened or put in harm's way.

[Rekinu Alasayaar]

^^ this explains it perfectly. I think the protection part doesn't come from my religious background, but how I was raised, and how I am as a person. I would do ANYTHING to protect little kids.. in fact, I almost got in a fight at work the other day cause I told a man he needed to not be cussing out his wife and kids. I hate it when I see women in bad situations because they are not thinking right/scared out of their minds and cannot end the relationship. I couldn't do more than that because I was at work... it was funny/scary to see him balloon up with anger at me... I got out of that one without fighting, but I would have been willing to let him beat me up if he would just leave his kids alone.

 

That goes for things as big as abuse, as it does about giving up a seat to someone on the train, opening doors when I can, and on down through everything I do... It is who I am.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Lol...guys- I wasnt saying that its because of your religious beliefs. My point was that religion tries to explain why you are that way- some say that God made man and woman, and so he made them a certain way. I'm sure there are other beliefs of course, but I'm not a religion expert >.>

[Sunrise Lord]

Oh I know, Fnorrll. I was trying to explain why men feel protective to Raena.

[Elgee]

I sort of get what EP is saying with regards to women in combat (and what the other guys are saying in support). I didn't always, and it still does sort of frustrate me, but I can understand it from their point of view:

 

As two of my close male friends who have been in combat explained it to me, they're trained to withstand all kinds of pain and even torture. Every person has a breaking point, though, and the thing that would break most of them is to have to watch a woman being tortured or even raped. Make that woman a colleague they know and care for, and just the thought is likely to drive them insane. They would spend all their attention and energy on preventing that, instead of focusing on their mission and personal safety, thereby completely negating what they're supposed to be doing.

[Arez Al'Loke]

Yepp.. We men are what some people call weak, and some others call human ^^

[MashiraSedai]

I agree that the need/desire to protect is just inborn in most men but I very much agree with Elgee and Niamh in saying that it is okay

to desire to help a woman. It is not okay to assume that because she is a woman, she needs your help.

 

We've pretty much started talking about topic three, so I'm not going to make a formal post on it. However, I will reintroduce the topic:

 

Non-Traditional Careers/Jobs, or jobs that are Traditionally Male: How have women advanced in these careers? What pressures/prejudices do they face?

Thank you to all the women who have already pitched in to discuss this!

[ElusiveAthena]

I notice that in some jobs (such as engineering) there has been incentives given to women (such as edducational scholarships) to encourage them to think about doing those jobs. For example, when I was in school - there was an "Engineering" class made up of about 25 boys and one girl. But she was easily able to hold her own, and although she wasn't the very top of the class she did very well and because of her mathematics abilities was accepted and respected by her classmates. I guess what I'm trying to say is in those jobs that have been traditionally male and which there is no physical reason why men would be overwhelmingly better at the job than women (which I can't think right now anyway of a decent example) there has been an increase in women's participation. The main prejudices are in careers that are mostly strength-based, because women are seen as "the weaker sex", in positions of political power still (although it has been changing gradually), the highest echelons of coporate power and in positions of religious power - such as Archbishops and popes.

[Alira]

I notice that in some jobs (such as engineering) there has been incentives given to women (such as edducational scholarships) to encourage them to think about doing those jobs. For example, when I was in school - there was an "Engineering" class made up of about 25 boys and one girl. But she was easily able to hold her own, and although she wasn't the very top of the class she did very well and because of her mathematics abilities was accepted and respected by her classmates. I guess what I'm trying to say is in those jobs that have been traditionally male and which there is no physical reason why men would be overwhelmingly better at the job than women (which I can't think right now anyway of a decent example) there has been an increase in women's participation. The main prejudices are in careers that are mostly strength-based, because women are seen as "the weaker sex", in positions of political power still (although it has been changing gradually), the highest echelons of coporate power and in positions of religious power - such as Archbishops and popes.

 

And in my high school I had to fight the guidance councillor, who first told me that I shouldn't even consider engineering (I had a 97% average in math and science), and I certainly shouldn't consider the most prestigious engineering school in the province. My classmates didn't doubt my abilities, they were more likely to ask for help from me, since I had the reputation of actually helping, instead of just handing out answers.

In six weeks I'll be finished engineering at the school my guidance councillor fought so hard to keep me from attending. I'm kind of tempted to find her, just to let her know how wrong she was.

 

I feel like I might be painting a too negative picture of being a woman in engineering. The incidents I've mentioned have been the exceptions, not the rule. I'm respected by most of my classmates, and I'm my class's advocate to the department. The associate chair of my department knows me and respects my opinions. I'm being a mentor next week at a "Women in Engineering Applicant Event" for the university. There are plenty of good things, there are just an unfortunate number of bad ones too.

[Reyoru]

The main prejudices are in careers that are mostly strength-based, because women are seen as "the weaker sex" ... and in positions of religious power - such as Archbishops and popes.

 

I would generally disagree with your statement on "religious power" as having anything to do with women as "the weaker sex." Different religions have assigned different roles to males and females within their structure e.g. the existence of monasteries for men and convents for women in various denominations of Christianity. It has more to do with religious reasons than anything else (although there are many religions out there, my view is based on my personal knowledge of religions).

[MashiraSedai]

EA: I can see where you are coming from, especially the bit about jobs in which women are not at a physical disadvantage.

 

Rey: I agree. Also, in certain religions where women are subordinate to men, this does not always or necessarily mean that they have less power. For example,

a teacher is subordinate to the principle, but that does not mean that either of them are made more or less powerful when talking in terms of teaching/disciplining

a student. There is simply a structure in place, or 'chain of command', that's how I see it anyway.

[ElusiveAthena]

Reyoru - I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. The "weaker sex" clause was attached to the "careers that are mostly strength based" and not to either of the others.