Was the word/name 'Merrilor' ever mentioned in books 1-11? Even once?

[The Fisher King]

Does it bother anyone else even a little that the most important conference in the history of the world and in the very last book be held at such never mentioned place?

 

I have enjoyed so much of the post-KOD material in WOT, but I am slightly uncomfortable with a few things that seem a tad too LOTRy, Matrixy, or brand spanking NEW.

 

Blood Knives, Dreamspikes, the "Field of Merrilor", 'Saidered', Every male character being Zorro with a sword now, ... lines like "The White Tower was DOOMED!!!"..."bloody ashes"

 

This is NOT another "Writing Style of Brandon Vs Rj" topic, but more me just asking of my fellow readers: Are there things in these last books that sometimes make you a little...uncomfortable?

 

 

Fish

[nortune]

In response to the topic title, a search of PDF copies of the first eleven books for "Merrilor" yields no results.

 

As for the actual topic, I'm not sure I could answer the question without listing things that have to do with writing and characterization.

[The Fisher King]

In response to the topic title, a search of PDF copies of the first eleven books for "Merrilor" yields no results.

 

As for the actual topic, I'm not sure I could answer the question without listing things that have to do with writing and characterization.

 

Well, Ill give you an example of how you could try: One of the things I grit my teeth about in the last books is the name "Fortuona" ... and guess what? Its been confirmed that name for Tuon came from RJ himself. Also, the "spanking" of Semirhage in TGS was detailed by RJ. So, see, not really another topic on just Brandon putting in too much that is cheesy or wince-inducing, but more of a discussion of things in the final three books that may be discomfiting no matter WHO wrote it.

 

 

Fish

 

P.s. Id include Mat's "I is gonna visssit u rell soon Ellane " letter, Elayne's over the top ditziness, the writing of Lan as some weird Jedi Knight, Rand being TOO zen and a few other things.

 

P.P.S Just to once again be clear: Brandon has done A LOT that I like very much. Like Rand and his entire storyline in TGS, his writing of Nynaeve, his writing of Perrin, Faile, Gawyn, Galad and others.

[cortezthekiller]

The actual name of the field or how few times it has been mentioned doesn't really bother me too much. I have a feeling that much of what occurs there is going to be so character-driven that the particular location is somewhat inconsequential. Really the fact that it is so unknown points to that very supposition.

 

The Dreamspikes are a little plot device-y but in a story that has had so many of them, I don't think they really stand out too glaringly.

 

My biggest problem in the last three books is that we still have to deal with unnecessary filler. Four chapters of a ghost story in Hinderstrap? Umpteen chapters about Perrin "finding himself"? How many chapters about Mat wasting time honoring Verin's deal before he *finally* goes to Finnland? No wonder it takes years and three books to finish.

[The Fisher King]

The actual name of the field or how few times it has been mentioned doesn't really bother me too much. I have a feeling that much of what occurs there is going to be so character-driven that the particular location is somewhat inconsequential. Really the fact that it is so unknown points to that very supposition.

 

The Dreamspikes are a little plot device-y but in a story that has had so many of them, I don't think they really stand out too glaringly.

 

My biggest problem in the last three books is that we still have to deal with unnecessary filler. Four chapters of a ghost story in Hinderstrap? Umpteen chapters about Perrin "finding himself"? How many chapters about Mat wasting time honoring Verin's deal before he *finally* goes to Finnland? No wonder it takes years and three books to finish.

 

For me, Im just big on names and continuity. After all these books and all these years, I feel like Ive been to Camelyn, as silly as that sounds. Like Ive visited Tar Valon and Shadar Logoth and Far Madding.

 

For one of the biggest events in the series history in the LAST book tohappen at some brand new place we've never even had ONE mention of...I dunno. Its kinda hard to explain. Just leaves me...I dunno.

 

Even places we have never been to - like Shara or Arafael, we have been told so much about that we feel like we KNOW those places.

 

 

Fish

[sgwin]

The same kind of thing bothered me with Cadsuane, who I don't think was mentioned prior to her onscreen appearance. It would have been nice to have at least a labeled dot on a map for Merrilor from the beginning. It doesn't appear to be in the Book of Bad Art either. I don't think I would mind much with most authors, but I feel like subtle foreshadowing was one of RJ's great strengths, and any time there is something or someone important that hasn't been alluded to in the thousands of preceding pages, it makes me wonder if it was an unplanned late addition. Which I guess isn't necessarily bad, but it feels weird in WoT.

[GYLD]

I don't recall Dumai's Wells being mentioned before LoC, and the events there certainly weren't cheapened because we weren't familiar with the location. Randland is a pretty big place and RJ did an excellent job of mapping it out, but it's a little unreasonable to expect him to detail every little scrap of land that is only significant for a time because of the people currently visiting it.

[David Selig]

Why should Merrilor have been mentioned? There's nothing special there, it's just a convenient meeting place - it's on neutral ground and there's plenty of space for the armies to camp.

[Ahaz Flagg]

None of those things you mentioned bother me one bit, every couple of weeks I hear of a city I have never heard of before. As to the dream spikes why should we have heard of them before they were used? The white tower has no idea what they are, and they are the keepers of lore. We also have limited information of all the tools of the Seanchan. I am really shocked you see an issue with the Asha Men and their sword play, 2 or 3 secenes in the book focus on just that.

 

I remember from a q+a that RJ said we have not seen everything the shawdow has or will have in play. I took him at his word, I expect to see a few more things we have never heard of in the last book!!

[The Fisher King]

The same kind of thing bothered me with Cadsuane, who I don't think was mentioned prior to her onscreen appearance. It would have been nice to have at least a labeled dot on a map for Merrilor from the beginning. It doesn't appear to be in the Book of Bad Art either. I don't think I would mind much with most authors, but I feel like subtle foreshadowing was one of RJ's great strengths, and any time there is something or someone important that hasn't been alluded to in the thousands of preceding pages, it makes me wonder if it was an unplanned late addition. Which I guess isn't necessarily bad, but it feels weird in WoT.

 

You kinds just did a really good job of saying exactly what ive been trying to put into words.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

I don't recall Dumai's Wells being mentioned before LoC, and the events there certainly weren't cheapened because we weren't familiar with the location. Randland is a pretty big place and RJ did an excellent job of mapping it out, but it's a little unreasonable to expect him to detail every little scrap of land that is only significant for a time because of the people currently visiting it.

 

That's a really fair point.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Why should Merrilor have been mentioned? There's nothing special there, it's just a convenient meeting place - it's on neutral ground and there's plenty of space for the armies to camp.

 

Well, I would give two answers:

 

1 Because it has been the tradition for this series to layout things on great detail and foreshadow...Cadsuane Sedai and Sinai's Wells have been listed as things that weren't mentioned ever before they appears, but, in truth - they were both very much EXCEPTIONS to the rule, not the norm.

 

2 There are so many locations that we are so much more familiar with after all these years that might have been chosen for such a pivotal event. Jmo.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

None of those things you mentioned bother me one bit, every couple of weeks I hear of a city I have never heard of before. As to the dream spikes why should we have heard of them before they were used? The white tower has no idea what they are, and they are the keepers of lore. We also have limited information of all the tools of the Seanchan. I am really shocked you see an issue with the Asha Men and their sword play, 2 or 3 secenes in the book focus on just that.

 

I remember from a q+a that RJ said we have not seen everything the shawdow has or will have in play. I took him at his word, I expect to see a few more things we have never heard of in the last book!!

 

Fair enough. Everyone is different. I like foreshadowing and I HATE anything that even slightly smells of Dues Ex Machina.

 

As for the sword stuff, I was more referring to Gawyn's little dance with the Warders, the Bloodknives - stuff like that.

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Fish, Gawyn killed two Warders as early as TSR. Oh, and RJ told us that there were ways of blocking Traveling. He didn't incorporate it into the story until this stage, but he did tell us. So...

 

I do agree with you on the principle, though.

[cortezthekiller]

I don't think tatsteful use of deus ex machina is inherently abhorrent in fiction, especially SF/Fantasy. Some interesting stories involve basically textbook definitions of it. Ringworld, Game of Thrones, umm... Chronicles of Narnia kinda... and clearly any object in WoT that comes from tAoL, especially ter'angreal would at least earn partial credit.

 

About FoM, I still feel like the the name of the field and weather it's been mentioned once is a little nitpicky, even by dragonmount standards :-P

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think tatsteful use of deus ex machina is inherently abhorrent in fiction, especially SF/Fantasy. Some interesting stories involve basically textbook definitions of it. Ringworld, Game of Thrones, umm... Chronicles of Narnia kinda... and clearly any object in WoT that comes from tAoL, especially ter'angreal would at least earn partial credit.

 

About FoM, I still feel like the the name of the field and weather it's been mentioned once is a little nitpicky, even by dragonmount standards :-P

 

Mr. Chairman!

 

I hereby move that anyone and anything not mentioned by page 35 of The Eye of the World be stricken from the record. Nothing new or previously unmentioned to be allowed.

 

Is there a second?

[Luckers]

To a degree I don't understand Merrilor when they could have used Bekkar--it's within marching distance of the Two Rivers, and as such likely in the Caralain Grass. It has awesome throwbacks to the beginning of the series--for me, Moiraine's Manetheren story was THE moment when I knew I loved the Wheel--and it would have lent itself to the chapter title 'The Field of Blood', which is, lets be honest, awesome.

[The Fisher King]

I don't think tatsteful use of deus ex machina is inherently abhorrent in fiction, especially SF/Fantasy. Some interesting stories involve basically textbook definitions of it. Ringworld, Game of Thrones, umm... Chronicles of Narnia kinda... and clearly any object in WoT that comes from tAoL, especially ter'angreal would at least earn partial credit.

 

About FoM, I still feel like the the name of the field and weather it's been mentioned once is a little nitpicky, even by dragonmount standards :-P

 

Mr. Chairman!

 

I hereby move that anyone and anything not mentioned by page 35 of The Eye of the World be stricken from the record. Nothing new or previously unmentioned to be allowed.

 

Is there a second?

 

We probably disagree, but, to me, there is a big difference between something not being mentioned by page 35 of EOTW and something that hasn't even once been mentioned in 12 books, 10, 000 pages and 23 years being the setting for the most important meeting in the history of the books.

 

 

Fish

[lord of madness]

I don't think tatsteful use of deus ex machina is inherently abhorrent in fiction, especially SF/Fantasy. Some interesting stories involve basically textbook definitions of it. Ringworld, Game of Thrones, umm... Chronicles of Narnia kinda... and clearly any object in WoT that comes from tAoL, especially ter'angreal would at least earn partial credit.

 

About FoM, I still feel like the the name of the field and weather it's been mentioned once is a little nitpicky, even by dragonmount standards :-P

 

Mr. Chairman!

 

I hereby move that anyone and anything not mentioned by page 35 of The Eye of the World be stricken from the record. Nothing new or previously unmentioned to be allowed.

 

Is there a second?

 

We probably disagree, but, to me, there is a big difference between something not being mentioned by page 35 of EOTW and something that hasn't even once been mentioned in 12 books, 10, 000 pages and 23 years being the setting for the most important meeting in the history of the books.

 

 

Fish

I move that anyone or thing not mentioned at least a book before it importants is revealed be stricken from the record

 

who will stand for this motion

[muddasssir]

I don't think tatsteful use of deus ex machina is inherently abhorrent in fiction, especially SF/Fantasy. Some interesting stories involve basically textbook definitions of it. Ringworld, Game of Thrones, umm... Chronicles of Narnia kinda... and clearly any object in WoT that comes from tAoL, especially ter'angreal would at least earn partial credit.

 

About FoM, I still feel like the the name of the field and weather it's been mentioned once is a little nitpicky, even by dragonmount standards :-P

 

Mr. Chairman!

 

I hereby move that anyone and anything not mentioned by page 35 of The Eye of the World be stricken from the record. Nothing new or previously unmentioned to be allowed.

 

Is there a second?

Lol good one Bob

[The Fisher King]

LOL!!! - Ok, Ok, I give. Ill go along. I Third It!!!

 

 

Fish

[Dreggs Morlock]

FoM is not on the map, even in ToM. I don't know about anyone else, but that was ... irritating! I kept itching to know exactly where this meeting place was taking place, and frustrated that it wasn't important to some back-story from yesteryear. I at first thought it was the fields Luckers mentioned previously, so much so that I pulled out my torn up copy of EotW to check.

 

BS and Team Jordan could have made sure FoM was on the map for ToM for dufuses like me, it would have been gradifying. There is such a huge blank area on the map, so I don't know if it closer to the White Tower or to the borderlands. THIS is what frosts me.

[The Fisher King]

FoM is not on the map, even in ToM. I don't know about anyone else, but that was ... irritating! I kept itching to know exactly where this meeting place was taking place, and frustrated that it wasn't important to some back-story from yesteryear. I at first thought it was the fields Luckers mentioned previously, so much so that I pulled out my torn up copy of EotW to check.

 

BS and Team Jordan could have made sure FoM was on the map for ToM for dufuses like me, it would have been gradifying. There is such a huge blank area on the map, so I don't know if it closer to the White Tower or to the borderlands. THIS is what frosts me.

 

Great post. Just how I feel.

 

 

Fish

[Sephie913]

Not even on the ToM map...I hadn't even looked. That's ridiculous.

 

It BETTER be on the map of the last f***ing book, though. And I'll be expecting some awesome Trolloc Wars history, too.

 

(A thought though: possibly, its location is CRITICAL to the story, and we don't know that yet. near the borderlands, all the armies of the light represented, or near enough... *shrugs* It's what I'd do, not put the location on the map because KNOWING the location would spawn some uber-fans with too much time on their hands ; ) theories that hit too close to home.)

[Terez]

Fish, Gawyn killed two Warders as early as TSR. Oh, and RJ told us that there were ways of blocking Traveling. He didn't incorporate it into the story until this stage, but he did tell us.

In a way, you can say he did incorporate it into the story, by foreshadowing the strangeness of building a wall around the Black Tower. It was totally pointless without a way to block gateways, and Logain did say it was pointless.