Bowl Of The Winds Bargain

[Zhon]

 

 

 

 

On the contrary, it's only channelers - specifically AS - that are treated so poorly. Nynaeve wasn't "abused", the windfinders were merely being very forceful in their teaching, standard practice among the athan meire. Although i think they were a little harsh on her, it wasn't unjustified IMO

I am fairly certain that somewhere in the books it is stated that any shorebound teacher (of channeling, or anything else) is treated as being equivalent to a deckhand.

 

But they pay them well. They recognize the necessity, but view academics as an inferior way to learn something - you learn by doing and by training and by climbing the ranks. The shorebound are "weak" and have no concept of rank or influence (and the AS system of raw channeling strength as a measure of rank always felt wrong to me, somehow).

 

As I said though, they HAVE to pay well, otherwise no teacher would step on a Seafolk deck.  If teachers weren't treated as the second-lowest rank on a ship, the massive bags of gold wouldn't be necessary to get them on board for any length of time.

[EmperorAllspice]

I always thought that every woman in this series is childishly entitled and/or insane. So the deal didn't come that out of left field for me. Though maybe if we'd had a scene that shows off exactly how good the Seafolk are at haggling it may have gone down smoother. I still wish we could see the Grey Ajah in successful action beyond merely being told of their accomplishments.

[jedman67]

I always thought that every woman in this series is childishly entitled and/or insane. So the deal didn't come that out of left field for me. Though maybe if we'd had a scene that shows off exactly how good the Seafolk are at haggling it may have gone down smoother. I still wish we could see the Grey Ajah in successful action beyond merely being told of their accomplishments.

YES! THIS is my one big problem with wot

immature women who should be all grown up.

[elric]

this deal bother me as well.

 

as mentioned before Nyn and Elaine KNOW that the bowl was an artifact of GREAT value to the Windfinder.

 

but there another point that ppl ignore that make these deal even more horrible.

 

the sea falk leave ON THE WATER !

they are much more VULNERABLE to bad weather then anyone else

 

all Nyn and Ellaine had to do was to claom : o.k we wil;l try and play with the global wather in a try and error method , what the worst that can happen -> storms ? , Hurican?... it not like we are the ppl who leave on the sea.

[Mr Ares]

this deal bother me as well.

 

as mentioned before Nyn and Elaine KNOW that the bowl was an artifact of GREAT value to the Windfinder.

 

but there another point that ppl ignore that make these deal even more horrible.

 

the sea falk leave ON THE WATER !

they are much more VULNERABLE to bad weather then anyone else

 

all Nyn and Ellaine had to do was to claom : o.k we wil;l try and play with the global wather in a try and error method , what the worst that can happen -> storms ? , Hurican?... it not like we are the ppl who leave on the sea.

Which would rely on their ability to bluff convincingly that they were willing to risk the lives of themselves, the Sea Folk, and everyone else in the world on figuring out the workings of the Bowl in a trial and error fashion. And remember that they went to the Sea Folk - to the Sea Folk way of thinking, that puts them in a weaker position for negotiations. If they didn't feel like they needed the Sea Folk, why would they have come to them? It's a case of "you feel like you need us more than we feel like we need you", regardless of the reality.

[elric]

i agrea it relay on the ability to bluff.

 

but could the sea folk took the risk ???

 

and is the argument -> "the DO playing with the weather , we need your help to fix it , but if u dont want to help we will try anyway " is really a bluff ???

wasnt the sea folk -> " we dont care about the weather and wont help u unless a+b+c+d+e...." a much bigger and much harder to believe bluff ???

 

i could easily see -> we help u and keep the bowl in return deal.

but we keep the bowl + u give us slave teachers + we get dominion over u and who u sent (like the demand that Nyn will teach and not another AS) + other terms i currently dont remember....  way too much

Edited October 15, 2013 by elric

[Mr Ares]

i agrea it relay on the ability to bluff.

 

but could the sea folk took the risk ???

 

and is the argument -> "the DO playing with the weather , we need your help to fix it , but if u dont want to help we will try anyway " is really a bluff ???

wasnt the sea folk -> " we dont care about the weather and wont help u unless a+b+c+d+e...." a much bigger and much harder to believe bluff ???

 

i could easily see -> we help u and keep the bowl in return deal.

but we keep the bowl + u give us slave teachers + we get dominion over u and who u sent (like the demand that Nyn will teach and not another AS) + other terms i currently dont remember....  way too much

But they came to the Sea Folk and said "we need your help." That doesn't put you in the most convincing position for then saying "well, we don't need you, I'm sure we can manage without.". Remember, the lives of everyone hang in the balance, and the Sea Folk are the only sure way to fix it. Plus, to their way of thinking, the Bowl already belongs to them. So you enter a bargain with very skilled bargainers who are your best hope for fixing things, after putting yourself in a weaker position in the bargaining process by going to them and saying that you need their help, and the only thing you're really willing to offer them is to give them back something that belongs to them. Also, bear in mind that "slave teachers" wasn't the bargain, just AS teachers - something which is not altogether unreasonable, and so they probably didn't think it too terrible a concession because they didn't realize how the Sea Folk treated their teachers. It's that cultural difference that makes the bargain so bad for the AS - if they were treated in the way the expected, with a degree of respect, it would be a great opportunity for the AS to both learn from the Windfinders, and also to shape the minds of the younger Windfinders - to make them more respectful of AS and more receptive to the desires of the WT. It could have represented a huge opportunity for expanding the AS influence over the Sea Folk. Looked at in that light, the fundamental problems with the bargain are a cultural difference in the correct way to treat teachers, and the mindset of the Sea Folk that their first response to the situation is to try and turn the situation to their advantage (well, advantage beyond "prevent the apocalypse") by making a bargain when offering help freely would not have been unreasonable, more so than any terms of the bargain itself.

[Rhienne]

I think there's also the possibility that Elayne and Nynaeve expected the Seafolk to be decent human beings, i.e. they thought if they went to them and said that they'd found a ter'angreal which could take back the weather from the Dark One's control and save thousands of lives by doing so, that the Seafolk would want to help.  If I was in there position I would have been quite taken aback that this was something that people would bargain over anyway.

[EmperorAllspice]

I think there's also the possibility that Elayne and Nynaeve expected the Seafolk to be decent human beings

They deal with Aes Sedai and they expect any woman in this series to be a decent human being?

[Maester_Olorin]

On 10/3/2013 at 1:36 PM, jedman67 said:

YES! THIS is my one big problem with wot

immature women who should be all grown up.

Well, I think the idea is that 3,000 years of otherwise human people in a situation. Where women can be wizards but that same power driving men made has created an imbalance that is deep in the culture. The Jungian archetype of the devouring mother is unchecked in the culture. It is the instinct of the masculine to kill the threat and teach purpose, the obligations of the father. The tyranny of the masculine energy is upon peoples, it is conquest, or it is subjugation, or a rigidity of immutable obligation to purpose each bound to a role that is chosen for them. Here we have the tyranny of the feminine energy. Where the feminine protects and nurtures the, when unbalanced, it infantilizes. It is a personal tyranny; see how all the women oppress the people with what is usually an individual verbal assault turning to each person in turn when cowing a group. 

[Maester_Olorin]

On 10/16/2013 at 4:47 AM, Mr Ares said:

But they came to the Sea Folk and said "we need your help." That doesn't put you in the most convincing position for then saying "well, we don't need you, I'm sure we can manage without.". Remember, the lives of everyone hang in the balance, and the Sea Folk are the only sure way to fix it. Plus, to their way of thinking, the Bowl already belongs to them. So you enter a bargain with very skilled bargainers who are your best hope for fixing things, after putting yourself in a weaker position in the bargaining process by going to them and saying that you need their help, and the only thing you're really willing to offer them is to give them back something that belongs to them. Also, bear in mind that "slave teachers" wasn't the bargain, just AS teachers - something which is not altogether unreasonable, and so they probably didn't think it too terrible a concession because they didn't realize how the Sea Folk treated their teachers. It's that cultural difference that makes the bargain so bad for the AS - if they were treated in the way the expected, with a degree of respect, it would be a great opportunity for the AS to both learn from the Windfinders, and also to shape the minds of the younger Windfinders - to make them more respectful of AS and more receptive to the desires of the WT. It could have represented a huge opportunity for expanding the AS influence over the Sea Folk. Looked at in that light, the fundamental problems with the bargain are a cultural difference in the correct way to treat teachers, and the mindset of the Sea Folk that their first response to the situation is to try and turn the situation to their advantage (well, advantage beyond "prevent the apocalypse") by making a bargain when offering help freely would not have been unreasonable, more so than any terms of the bargain itself.

Third Rule of Acquisition: “Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to” 

-Start from the Position the Bowl of the Winds belonged to the AS from the AOL and of the Sea Folk found one it was theft to take what was clearly never theirs, that modern AS have never given up search restore what was taken so scavengers/salvage rights do not apply, and they are not that they are authorized to relinquish the object. This last was still available to the A. Seat: a child can not legally sell his father’s sword. 

-Follow up with the offer that they will gain the talent of linking in exchange of the service.

- add that if the are not satisfied with that, then the SF will have to be satisfied with the weather changes the Tower will make: as imperfect as AS might be in controlling weather.

 

All that took me longer to type than to realize and articulate. To establish that the SF are this good at bargaining you have to show at least some of it. 

 

[Cheyboygan]

As it played out this WAS a terrible deal that should not have been made, but I don't think its unreasonable to believe that Nyn and Eg thought at the time sending AS teachers to the Sea Folk was win/win.  They couldn't conceive how terribly the SF would treat those teachers, nor how much the AS establishment would dislike it.  Neither was a full AS or had even done much of the training to become one at this point.  Under normal circumstances they would have still been Novices and not given any authority to have any say on AS policy.   Eg did want to alter the deal later to an exchange of apprentices, once she saw it wasn't working.