What constitutes a standard game?

[aemonkristen]

This has become the subject of hot debate in a game. Because it has become a distraction from the game itself and many have called for the discussion to cease on thread, I decided to make this thread. From the Welcome to DM Mafia! thread (I did a copy past since it wouldn't let me quote)

 

Mafia Game Categories

There will be 2 types of games running on this board - Basic Mafia & Advanced Mafia.

 

A Basic game will contain standard mafia roles. There are no recruiting roles or complex roles used, and the mafia/town ratio will be consistent with guides found on the mafiascum site linked above (usually ~25% mafia/scum).

 

An Advanced game could contain any type of role you could think of, and many times will do exactly that! These games are much more complex than their basic brethren. They could contain secrets, triggers, multiple factions, recruitment - you name it. Proceed with caution. ;-)

 

 

The Mod Council

On this board, we've decided that there will not be rules for newbie players to make them play certain "newbie games" before they can jump into a more complex game. It is surely recommended that they try out Basic games first, but it is not required to play here. However, we do have rules when it comes to modding. We have implemented a mod council that will oversee the recruitment and game setup of mods that wish to mod a game on this board. The mod council currently consists of the following people:

 

DreadPirateRoberts

Verbal32

Kivam

Barmacral

Talya

Naeann

LilyElizabeth

 

The reason for this council is that modding is easily the hardest part about mafia. An unbalanced game can be disastrous for people's fun factor, and can completely ruin a game. In order to mitigate the risk of unbalanced games, we have a few simples rules:

 

1. Any mod (new or vet) may mod a Basic game by PMing both Verbal & DPR with the request to be added to the Basic mod queue. We will update the queue thread and you can monitor that to know when it's your turn to mod. No more than 2 Basic games can be running at the same time.

 

2. To mod a Complex game, you must PM both Verbal & DPR with the request similar to the above Basic games. At this point, we will place you in the queue and note it on the queue thread. Then the mod council will decide on which member will review the setup, and either DPR or myself will let you know who to PM the game setup to. That person will then review the game and help out with any applicable tweaks for game balance purposes. This will allow other council members the opportunity to play in these awesome games! No more than 2 Advanced games can be running at the same time.

 

3. At some point, a given mod will no longer be required to submit their setups to the mod council (this will be at the discretion of the council). Please understand that this is only done to ensure we have balanced games to play. We've got lots of eager mods that have wonderful and creative ideas for games, but sometimes balance takes a back seat to the WOW! factor, which we need to ensure doesn't happen. Once a mod has reached this point, all you need to do is PM Verbal & DPR with the request for placement on the Advanced queue, and we will make it happen - no further work required.

 

4. Please understand that the mod council is not out to ruin anybody's game. You spend a lot of time and effort to create great games, and we are here to help ensure that DM members enjoy a balanced game that will make them eager for more. If you have an issue with a game you are modding, you can PM any member(s) of the council that are not currently playing your game, and we would be happy to help out if we can. If there are ever any concerns that deal with the rules of the DM site or are conduct-related, please PM both Verbal & DPR and, as the mods for this board, we will sort it out.

 

5. Have fun! We all love teh mafia goodness - that's why we are here. Let's work together to give people the best games we can!

 

The bolded sections are the ones am referring to in this discussion. The definition of a Basic game is referred to Mafiascum which states:

 

Basic Roles

 

The above suffices for a Vanilla game, but most games have roles other than just Mafia and Townie. These roles have additional abilities (which are usually used during the Night, though there are some Day abilities as well). Some more common roles are listed here.

Cop - Each Night, the Cop can investigate one player (by sending their name to the Moderator), and the Moderator will tell them whether that player is Mafia or not.

Doctor - Each Night, the Doctor can choose one player to protect (by sending their name to the Moderator). If the Mafia (or anyone else) tries to kill that player, that kill will be prevented.

Vigilante - Each Night, the Vigilante may kill another player (by sending their name to the Moderator).

Mason - The Masons are a group of players who are confirmed to each other as Town and can talk to each other at Night.

All of these roles are generally Town-aligned.

Serial Killer - The Serial Killer (often abbreviated as SK), like the Vigilante, may kill another player each Night (by sending their name to the Moderator). However, the Serial Killer is not on the Town's side or the Mafia's side. The Serial Killer wins when everyone else is dead.

Multiple Families - On occasion, in larger games there may be more than one group of Mafia. These act independently of one another, and must kill the other group as well as the Town in order to win.

Roleblocker - Each Night, the Roleblocker can choose a player. That player will be prevented from using their Night choice, if they have one. Roleblocker has been known to be a Town role as well as a scum role.

 

And now we get to the meat of the discussion. When rules are defined, the players should be able to rely on those rules to understand the nature of the game and the roles involved. When a setup does not follow those rules, it results in unfortunate incidents.

[Nolder]

well here's an abridged copy of my PM conversation with Verbal

DPR was also included although he chose not to comment on it, I assume that means he just agrees with what Verb said but who knows!

 

 

Hey guys this has come up a few times in games I've played and I just thought I'd bring it to your attention to see what you think.

Ok the issue is this. Mafia games here on DM are being a little...stifled by the expectations of what is and isn't allowed. Right now games have to be categorized as either Basic or Advanced. The expectation that comes with Basic is that it will have 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 1 Godfather, maybe a Roleblocker (Mafia aligned), and maybe a Serial Killer with the rest of the players being powerless. The expectation of Advanced games is for very large epic games with tons of experimental roles and game mechanics that can easily get out of hand but should be fun anyway.

The problem is that there is no allowance for an inbetween type game. Something that uses Standard roles that most people are aware of but has more variance than a Basic game (for example roles like Framer, Watcher, Bodyguard, Surviver, Miller, Jailer, the list goes on of course but you get the idea). I would like you guys to consider adding a middle type game that isn't just for learning but isn't supposed to get all crazy either. I've typed up an example below for you guys to look at.

---

Basic: This type of game is for learning how to play mafia and getting used to basic concepts and lingo. Accepted roles for this type of game are:

1. . Recommended players: 6-12.

 

Standard: This is your standard game of mafia. All types of roles are allowed as long as they are simple to understand and have been tested for balance. Recommended players: 12-20.

 

Advanced: Anything goes mafia! Expect experimental roles, concepts, and game mechanics. This is the wild wild west of game types so balance is not guaranteed. Your game moderator should let you know what level of complexity and balance to expect. Recommended players: Your call.

 

Hey guys this has come up a few times in games I've played and I just thought I'd bring it to your attention to see what you think.

Ok the issue is this. Mafia games here on DM are being a little...stifled by the expectations of what is and isn't allowed. Right now games have to be categorized as either Basic or Advanced. The expectation that comes with Basic is that it will have 1 Cop, 1 Doctor, 1 Godfather, maybe a Roleblocker (Mafia aligned), and maybe a Serial Killer with the rest of the players being powerless. The expectation of Advanced games is for very large epic games with tons of experimental roles and game mechanics that can easily get out of hand but should be fun anyway.

The problem is that there is no allowance for an inbetween type game. Something that uses Standard roles that most people are aware of but has more variance than a Basic game (for example roles like Framer, Watcher, Bodyguard, Surviver, Miller, Jailer, the list goes on of course but you get the idea). I would like you guys to consider adding a middle type game that isn't just for learning but isn't supposed to get all crazy either. I've typed up an example below for you guys to look at.

---

Basic: This type of game is for learning how to play mafia and getting used to basic concepts and lingo. Accepted roles for this type of game are:

1. . Recommended players: 6-12.

Well there is two problems with that.

1. I don't think many people read the sticky more than once or twice and it can be hard to remember what was included (I did not remember Masons were considered basic myself).

2. The few roles that are provided are examples. There are other roles that can be put into a Basic game but it's hard to know where to draw the line.

 

I guess the issue is mostly that Basic games are not well defined. Even though I believe three categories would be ideal I don't disagree you can do a "Basic and everything else" type of deal. It needs to be more clear where those lines are drawn though.

 

I remember a time when I was playing one of my first games here. I was in a Basic game as mafia and I fakeclaimed Miller. I came extremely close to being lynched simply because Miller isn't considered "Basic" here and I didn't know that at the time.

 

I think all stems from the fact that examples are used. If you wont consider adding a third category can you at least consider either setting out an official list of pre approved roles OR get rid of those examples altogether so nobody has any preconceived notion of where exactly that line is being drawn between Basic and Advanced?

 

I'll edit out the examples - that's fair. Also, it might be a good idea to start a thread on this subject. You have lots of thoughts on it, so if you'd like to start it up, I will definitely chime in with our "official stance", and Wes can as well.

 

I had planned on making this thread after the X Men game so it wouldn't interfere in any way with that but uhhh cats outta the bag now as they say

 

Standard: This is your standard game of mafia. All types of roles are allowed as long as they are simple to understand and have been tested for balance. Recommended players: 12-20.

 

Advanced: Anything goes mafia! Expect experimental roles, concepts, and game mechanics. This is the wild wild west of game types so balance is not guaranteed. Your game moderator should let you know what level of complexity and balance to expect. Recommended players: Your call.

 

 

If the bolded above is the expectation, then folks aren't reading the info sticky thread I have on the mafia board. I quote myself:

 

A Basic game will contain standard mafia roles (i.e. Finder/Cop, Healer/Doc, Masons, Vig, SK).

 

A Godfather is not really a standard role, but I suppose that's up for debate. Either way, the Advanced games can be any method of game - they don't have to be crazy. In between games are perfectly fine. The problem you'll run into is that people WANT to play the crazy experimental ones....to them, vanilla is boring.

 

We've had different types of setups before, similar to what you suggest above, and they never worked. The way we have it now appears to be working well in terms of players wanting to play. Advanced games can be more complicated Basic setups....if people think that's not the case, they don't read stickies. Tell them to PM me and I'll happily explain.

[aemonkristen]

Sorry about that Nolder. It's just one of those things that's bugging me at the moment. I also want to be clear that I am in no way knocking or insulting the mod. I just think, as Nolder already mentioned, that clarification will be necessary.

[Nolder]

it's cool

 

to expand upon the issue though

 

"A Basic game will contain standard mafia roles. There are no recruiting roles or complex roles used, and the mafia/town ratio will be consistent with guides found on the mafiascum site linked above (usually ~25% mafia/scum)."

 

what is a "complex role"

like I stated in my PM I claimed Miller in that game (it was Star Wars, I was mafia with Kate as I recall) and I consider Miller a very basic and easy to understand role

but everyone in the game just wouldn't accept it

 

personally I believe lines should be drawn and it should be clear what roles are and aren't allowed

but I am also ok with it being open ended as long as it's clear that the line is blurry so people wont go "hey! that role isn't basic!"

[Basel Gill]

Basic is supposed to be something to help newbs along without dipping them right into the hard stuff, right? I'd be in favor of "Basic" games on DM being restricted to no use of any roles beyond the ones listed under Basic in the pinned sticky. From what I can tell, there have been quite a few supposedly "Basic" games on DM lately that include some twists beyond those listed for Basic.

[Sakaea]

I'd like to point out that there is a difference between Basic and Standard, and I think that gets overlooked quite a lot. I'm guilty of that, too.

[aemonkristen]

I see where you are coming from and agree completely, Nolder. As long as it is clear that there are surprises or out of the ordinary (in terms of an absolute Basic game) roles, I'm cool with that.

[Nolder]

yeah

I just want everyone to be on the same page as far as what's expected

[Red2111]

Verb is right about the old system not working so far as classifing games goes. we used to have about 5 different classes

 

Basic, Standard, Advanced, Fast and Epic. with this many choices of play, and no board of governors to okay a set up, balance was seriosuly wacked in many games and sometimes an Advanced game woudl get labeled Standard, ect.

 

not to mention, because of so many categories, the Mod Que was worse than it is now, and the Basic game types would get overlooked, because no one wanted to make or play in a Basic game where most peopel are nilla.

 

 

persionally, i like havign the two categories. it lessens the amount of games you have posted at one time for sign ups and makes the Mod Que move faster.

 

 

 

that said, i honestly think people are being a bit to litteral in the roles list. those are just examples of roles that you might see in a basic game, not a clear cut list of what is and isn't expected in every basic game. if a Mod wanted the players to know what roles the were using and wanted the twists to be expected, they'd post that in the OP.

 

one thing about a Basic game is, not many people like playing them when given the choice, and most people, given the choice, woudl prefer to run a game jam packed with roles. most people just don't liek Nilla's; they find the games boring and even if they do sign up, they don't give that game the attention it diserves because they don't have a role. mods know this and want to keep the game interesting, so they throw in twists.

 

me personally, i love putting twists into my game; just to keep you players on your toes and to make the modding experience that much more fun for me.

 

 

 

liek i said in the game thread. if a game is posted here as a Basic game, i trust that it's set up and balance (even if it has a twist or 4 thrown in) is basic because the list of Mods who check the balance are the best Mafia mods DM has to offer.

 

mafia isn't a black & white game, its nothing but greys upon greys; so you can't expect the roles that are considered to be Basic to be black & white either. for instance, the SK is a basic role, yet i woudl consider a game where everyone is a SK and it's "last man standing" to be advanced. not to mention, that before this board was reformatted, a Cult and Mafia recruit were considered Basic roles, now their not. if the lsit of basic roels were Blakc and White and set in stone, these two woudl still be considered Basic roles.

 

 

 

if people really do find this a probably, i think all that needs to be done is to add a disclaimer that says "list of Basic Roles includes, but isn't limited to.." and be done with it. goign along the list of all the roles people use in their games will be more of a pain than it's worth; especially with a great bunch of Mafia Gods overlooking any game that goes into signups here in this Board.

 

 

[Red2111]

i don't mean to sound snappish, if it came off that way. i'm cranky because of my allergies, so it's not that i'm mad at anyone and i do think that this is a good topic of dicussion.

 

 

i just think trying to amend the rules and force mods to keep slight twists out f basic games is the wrong way to go. the problem honestly stems form the players, not the mods. the only reason a mod throws in a twist in a basic game is because they want to make sure their basic, limited roled game can compete for the attention of a more role jam packed advanced game.

 

like i said, alot of people sign up for a basic game, but once they get casted as "Townie Vanilla" they barely post and play in said game because they don't see the game as interesting. this isn't a new problem, but a constant one even back when i first started playing, so i'm not talking about anyone specific.

 

 

the change that needs to happen is on the players side, not the mods side; if people would just come to realize that being Nilla can be rather fun and liberating, then Mods woudln't feel the need to throw in "advanced" roles or twists to allow for their games to compete for attention.

 

 

[aemonkristen]

I didn't see it as snappish at all, Red. I am fine with Mods throwing in a twist as long as I know that that is a possibility. I was seriously working under the assumption that there was a fixed setup for basic games and that is where all of the confusion started. If making twists and using roles other than those considered Basic (I still maintain that a bomb is not a basic role) are going to be allowed, it should be mentioned in the "How to Mod" thread so that players know what they are getting into. I know that when I started modding we had specific setups to use for basic games and anything else was unacceptable. Apparently times have changed and we need to reflect that in the "Must Read" section of DM Mafia.

[aemonkristen]

Forgot to add, I love being vanilla townie. You can take all the risks you want without worrying about the town being too damaged if you happen to get lynched or draw the NK. The people that get bored when they don't have a power role aren't really playing mafia in my opinion. They just want to use their power on someone and can't wait to get to Night Phase to do it.

[Verbal32]

The problem with saying "these 5 roles are considered basic" is that people will try to game the system and it will restrict the scum's freedom to fakeclaim or lay false trails.

 

I could sit here and mandate that all basic game must have 1 Cop, 1 Doc, and vanilla town/scum. And guess how many people would sign up for those games?

 

Instead, we let it be the grey area that Red mentioned. If you have recruitment, the game isn't basic. If you have roles like bus drivers and mind controllers, the game isn't basic. You can have a SK or a vig and make the game basic. Maybe I'm being ignorant because I'm the mod, but this seems pretty self-explanatory to me. If you are making a complicated game, you know it and should advertise as advanced and have it reviewed. If you are unsure if your game is basic or advanced, that's what DPR and I are here for - PM us and ask. If it falls in that grey area, then we'll chat about it and make a decision.

 

Bottom line: you don't want to have players pissed because they expected a basic game and were recruited to the cult on N1, or roleblocked, switched, tracked, and watched all on N1. If you start to include townie powers like that, you by definition of balance have to add roles to the scum team. At that point, you've probably gone from basic to advanced. It's pretty simple when you think in those terms.

[Nolder]

roleblockers are not basic?

or were you saying town roleblockers aren't basic?

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm actually surprised that so many of you feel that people won't sign up for basic games. I love those best. No twists, no oddities showing up - just straight-up mafia.

 

This is a much- needed discussion. Thanks, Aemon.

[Verbal32]

roleblockers are not basic?

or were you saying town roleblockers aren't basic?

 

Not my point. My point is that if you add a sprinkle of roles to the town side, you'll need to do the same to the mafia in order to balance, and your game quickly becomes advanced.

 

 

 

I'm actually surprised that so many of you feel that people won't sign up for basic games. I love those best. No twists, no oddities showing up - just straight-up mafia.

 

This is a much- needed discussion. Thanks, Aemon.

 

I like those the best as well, but most people just don't. I've seen it on DM, MJ, and JN. A little less on JN - we like basic games there more than DM or MJ do, but still - it's definitely an issue.

[Red2111]

I didn't see it as snappish at all, Red. I am fine with Mods throwing in a twist as long as I know that that is a possibility. I was seriously working under the assumption that there was a fixed setup for basic games and that is where all of the confusion started. If making twists and using roles other than those considered Basic (I still maintain that a bomb is not a basic role) are going to be allowed, it should be mentioned in the "How to Mod" thread so that players know what they are getting into. I know that when I started modding we had specific setups to use for basic games and anything else was unacceptable. Apparently times have changed and we need to reflect that in the "Must Read" section of DM Mafia.

 

i'm glad it didn't come off that way; i'm not feelign the best right now because of allergies and i know my mood is generally reflected through my posts tones here on DM

 

and thats not how i see it. i see it more as a giudline, a suggestion for starter roles on people who are wanting to set up a Basic game but have no clue on how to start or what roles to include. each game SHOULD be different, even if it is Basic. this is another problem the old DM basic games had and why i think many people didn't want to run or play in them. EVERY set up was limited to 3 different templates, no more, no less and honestly that sucked from both the mod angle and the player angle.

 

the reason why the rules reguarding set ups can be just a guideline is because we have a mandatory rule dictacting that all set ups are checked by those who know wtf their doing. so even if a Basic game has an "advanced" role throw in just to spice it up, i trust it's still a basic game because the people who check over it before the games are allowed to go into signup wouldn't let it go up unless the game was still basic.

 

1 or 2 "advanced" roles thrown into a basic set up does NOT make the game advanced, unless its a role that directly alters the town/anti-town ratio (recruits).

 

 

 

Forgot to add, I love being vanilla townie. You can take all the risks you want without worrying about the town being too damaged if you happen to get lynched or draw the NK. The people that get bored when they don't have a power role aren't really playing mafia in my opinion. They just want to use their power on someone and can't wait to get to Night Phase to do it.

 

^^ this, 110%. i used to be like that, thought being vanilla sucked, so much so that every game i designed HAD to have a role, not because i enjoyed modding all the roles, but because i feared players would lose interest in my game.

 

but my opinion of being Vanilla changed about a year ago. you know why it changed, because i finally figured out what Aemon posted above. theres a certain amount of freedom to being Vanilla. you can change your playstle and try a different tactic. want to false claim finder and see what happens, perfect to do as a Vanilla. want to play more like Mynd just to see why alot of people consider that agreesive style so fun, Vanilla is the best chance to give that a shot.

 

 

I'm actually surprised that so many of you feel that people won't sign up for basic games. I love those best. No twists, no oddities showing up - just straight-up mafia.

 

This is a much- needed discussion. Thanks, Aemon.

 

 

see i think this is where being a Vet snaps most of us in the butt. you have to stop and think, did you always not mind being vanilla, or did you always find Basic games so appealing.

 

theres a pretty good turn over rate of players in this game, becuase of the nature of the game. most people don't find being vanilla or playing in a basic game to be all that great until they've been playing for a year + ya know, so don't ever find the greatness in laying in those games as well.

[cosmicpanda]

I think part of the problem here is that we're expecting 'basic' games to also function as 'newbie' games, which should be less complicated. Newbie games attract a different standard of play, which might discourage some people from playing in them.

 

 

Since this site isn't averse to revering to mafiascum, this is how they define their 'normal' games:

 

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Normal_game

 

 

Specifically, they have quite a generous allowance for what a 'normal' role is:

 

Roles which are explicitly Normal include:

Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Framer, Mafia-aligned versions of above roles

 

Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:

Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Neighbor, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)

 

I'm not saying we should adopt that here, since some of them seem to be included simply because they used to be considered normal way back in the early days of that site (like the Innocent Child and Mafia Traitor). I enjoy the way that they allow all of their roles to be modified, though: it allows for really weird roles like a bulletproof miller. I do think that it's important to be very clear about what's allowed.

[Verbal32]

They are insane if they think a traitor is a basic role.

[Red2111]

traitor is definately not a basic role and is hard to balance in a game.

[bgrishinko]

I like the idea of Basic being roles that are simple to understand and common in almost every game. Cop,Doc,Godfather,Blocker,maybe watcher/tracker depending on size, Vig/SK, and a few others people have mentioned as being fairly common in most games.

 

I also think that one random twist or less common role should be allowed, but only one. It teaches newer players to rely mostly on the common roles at first, but encourages them to think outside the box a bit and see how unique elements can be implemented without overpowering or taking over a game. It also gives basic games a method to be unique and allows flexibility in false claims.

[cosmicpanda]

Why should normal games be intended for newer players?

[Nolder]

I had a very long post I was working on when my computer crashed last...thursday?

I'll finish it up and post it tomorrow (it may not be entirely relevant anymore) but I just wanted to say that I agree with what panda just said

 

there are games for learning, normal games, and epic/crazy/advanced/experimental type games

or at least I believe there should be

not every mafia veteran wants to play in huge games with 99999999 people who all have roles the moderator just made up

[Red2111]

basic games shoudl cater towards newer players in design because a basic game shoudl be toned down enough for new players not to feel WTF more than normal, especially if it's their first game. newbs need simple games to cut their teeth on, as most do't learn my jumping in the deep end without floaties to help them along; simply put, you need the Basic games to cater towards getting new players addicted so they don't get overwhelmed by the complexity of the game and get scared off.

[Nolder]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that are they?