Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
The Fisher King

How is this NOT an example of an Aes Sedai *Lying*??

Recommended Posts

This would not bug me so bad if it were not for the point made in the books that an Aes Sedai also can not WRITE a lie.

 

In TFOH, Book Five, the prologue has an Aes Sedai tell Elaida that, well, to paraphrase, a forger is faking letters to Elayne's mom!

 

Ok, at first I was like ''Well, its definitely Dishonest, but is it technically a Lie?...'' ...I thought more about it, though, and due to the situation, almost anything IN the letters would be lies also. So, then I thought, well, maybe the Forger isn't Aes Sedai, but then what are the Aes Sedai saying to the Forgers in their ''dealings''???

 

I just don't like it. Seems a clear Oath Violation in my eyes, and while Elaida and her crew are definite bumpkins, they aren't Black (Except for Alviarin).

 

 

Fish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still not lying according to the narrow definition that we know you can get away with if you only believe it. Siuan did something similar when she started rumors that the supergirls were doing penance on a farm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still not lying according to the narrow definition that we know you can get away with if you only believe it. Siuan did something similar when she started rumors that the supergirls were doing penance on a farm.

 

 

Man...I dunno...seems pretty inconsistent to me...

 

They flat out admit they are communicating false information to Morgase Trakand of Andor. It doesn't seem to provide a whole lot of wiggle room to me.

 

 

Fish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elaida, or whoever is placing the order for the forgery, says plainly, to the non-Aes Sedai writer, "I want the letter to say ..." She never speaks an untrue word that way. It's most certainly what she wants written down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elaida, or whoever is placing the order for the forgery, says plainly, to the non-Aes Sedai writer, "I want the letter to say ..." She never speaks an untrue word that way. It's most certainly what she wants written down.

 

Or she could even say "I want Morgase to think..." and then let the forger write it all out in his own words. And do we know exactly what was in the letters? Because without knowing that, then for all we know the information might just be so vague that it's not actually lies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consider the wording of the Three Oaths -- "To speak no word that is not true". To me this almost implies an Aes Sedai is forging -- they are not SPEAKING any word that is not true. While this is an almost Ealfinn level distinction, I've always thought the wording of the oath, including the usage of the direct verb speak and the curious phrasing "not true" instead of "false" encourages such nuanced distinctions.

 

Think of how different Aes Sedai behavior would be if the oath was "To never communicate or imply a falsehood",

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering how come so many Aes Sedai go under false names half of the time? What, do they say "Call me this and this" so it isn't a lie?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consider the wording of the Three Oaths -- "To speak no word that is not true". To me this almost implies an Aes Sedai is forging -- they are not SPEAKING any word that is not true.

 

AS can not write a lie any more than speak one.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering how come so many Aes Sedai go under false names half of the time? What, do they say "Call me this and this" so it isn't a lie?

 

New Spring, Lan POV:

 

 

This Alys - she told them to call her Alys, which he doubted as much as the Great Serpent ring she produced, especially after she tucked it back into her beltpouch and said no one must know she was Aes Sedai - this 'Alys' had a temper.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consider the wording of the Three Oaths -- "To speak no word that is not true". To me this almost implies an Aes Sedai is forging -- they are not SPEAKING any word that is not true.

 

AS can not write a lie any more than speak one.

 

True. The key part of the wording is "no word that is not true". As long as an Aes Sedai puts a qualifier such as "I would like you to write..." or "You may call me..." before whatever they're going to say, they're not breaking their oath. There is nothing forbidding them from lying by omission or ever leading others into a lie so long as the words they say are true. There apparently are exceptions for common expressions and idioms, however. The phrase, while not literally true, has taken on it's own meaning apart from what the actual words are.

Edited by Agitel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Aes Sedai can write lies, because the oath is I will speak no word that is not true. My reasons for this is when Elaida and Alviarin send Rand letters, he asks her does the oath extend to written words, she nods rather than says yes.

Edited by Arkane101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Aes Sedai can write lies, because the oath is I will speak no word that is not true. My reasons for this is when Elaida and Alviarin send Rand letters, he asks her does the oath extend to written words, she nods rather than says yes.

 

Seaine and Pevara also state that Aes Sedai cannot write lies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Aes Sedai can write lies, because the oath is I will speak no word that is not true. My reasons for this is when Elaida and Alviarin send Rand letters, he asks her does the oath extend to written words, she nods rather than says yes.

 

Seaine and Pevara also state that Aes Sedai cannot write lies.

 

I believe RJ has said that an Aes Sedai can not in any way blatantly acknowedge a lie. They would be unable to nod their head yes or no when answering a yes or no question, if their answer is a lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Aes Sedai can write lies, because the oath is I will speak no word that is not true. My reasons for this is when Elaida and Alviarin send Rand letters, he asks her does the oath extend to written words, she nods rather than says yes.

 

Seaine and Pevara also state that Aes Sedai cannot write lies.

 

I believe RJ has said that an Aes Sedai can not in any way blatantly acknowedge a lie. They would be unable to nod their head yes or no when answering a yes or no question, if their answer is a lie.

 

I seem to remember Siuane and Moriane testing written words in New Spring. They couldn't write things that weren't true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AS are mistresses of misdirection. Just as they could speak in a fashion so as to give Morgause a false impression about Elayne without actually telling a direct lie, they can also write in such fashion.

They also run networks of people who aren't constricted at all by the oaths. What's to prevent a tower scribe or ajah spy from actually writing a letter with blatant lies and forged signature on the instruction of an AS who says " I'd like a letter that says xyz"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...