Do you think Rand/Dragon Soul could be literally be Jesus Christ and/or other legends/religious figures of our day?

[Vermillion]

Regardless of how you feel about the faith and realness of it to avoid that kind of argument. Do you think the dragon soul one power or not could be someone like Jesus? Would someone like Jesus be a ta'veren? I doubt RJ would have answered a question like that but I wonder what his thinking on the subject is since we're supposed live in an age of the Pattern.

[FarShainMael]

Well, Rand hasn't shown Divine authority by forgiving anyone their sins, so no he isn't. (See Matt.9:2-8.)

[Vermillion]

Well, Rand hasn't shown Divine authority by forgiving anyone their sins, so no he isn't. (See Matt.9:2-8.)

 

I really didn't mean for the topic to be focused on Christ. Just the only example I know of where an age or at least sub age is marked by birth/death/event of religuous/legendary figure in most of the world.

 

Depending on how the last battle goes how do you think Rand will be remember? I doubt accurately, especially if one power dies off inthe next age which seems to have been happening with the Seachan takeover. 3k years later people will likely think Rand's "magic" is an exageration and that he was a mere man by most.

 

I mean, look at how LTT despite being a hero is the face of the crazed male channeler.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Well, we know some of Rand's exploits will be remembered due to the Fourth Age writings that have appeared at the beginning or ending of some of the books.

[Zappa3837]

Almost all myths, and all fantasy novels I have read, have some sort of Christ like figure at their center.

[Vermillion]

Almost all myths, and all fantasy novels I have read, have some sort of Christ like figure at their center.

 

Yes, but not all books have our times as future and past with heavy reincarnation angle, especially of heroes/villans type of changers.

 

Would someone like Jesus be a possible hero of the horn, Ta'veren type putting our history into the reality of the books. You could see how a legend of Perrin could be twisted over time into being Thor with is hammer.

[Pinzarn]

Yes, but not all books have our times as future and past with heavy reincarnation angle, especially of heroes/villans type of changers.

 

Would someone like Jesus be a possible hero of the horn, Ta'veren type putting our history into the reality of the books. You could see how a legend of Perrin could be twisted over time into being Thor with is hammer.

 

From that respect, Mat would be a better fit since he has died and then came back from the dead (twice).

 

Every good book that I have read, especailly books in a series where there is more detail, pull bits of information from our history, our religions, our countries, and other authors' worlds. The author uses this collective information to give us points to feed off of.

 

I recommend heading to the 13th depository and reading some of the essays on the characters. The writer there points out many similarities with various mythical/religious figures, not just Christian ones.

[mandersen]

I think in the context of the WoT universe it makes perfect sense for Christ to be the Dragon soul. We use his birth to mark a different "Age". He had powers to heal and perform other miracles. True we don't have any battles with the DO in the new testament, but maybe in this age the battle was just between the two of them, and is what happened in the garden of gethsemane (what we have recorded as Christ suffering for the sins of the world). And maybe the whole thing about being the Son of God and other things we associate with Jesus and religion were things that his disciples came up with (like masema did with rand) and recorded.

 

This all sounds pretty blasphemous if you're christian. I mean this as it relates to a work of fiction. I'm actually a firm believer in the Bible.

 

As for other historical figures, i can't think of others who fit as well. but i'm biased.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Given his running theme of "world's salvation" and various other lesser parallels such as the sa'angreal, women washing his feet and so on, he could easily be considered a Christ-like figure. Of course, you have to strip away all the things that make him human, as well as his personal flaws, but time already does that in shaping myths and legends.

[Majsju]

Q: Is Rand al'Thor meant to be a Jesus figure?<br id="lp6w" style="font-family: verdana; font-size: small; ">RJ: Um, if you consider King Arthur to be a Jesus figure--the king who must die.

[bsmnt23]

I thought the Dragon was closer to Lucifer than Jesus, though there are elements of both in Rand. (Also bear in mind that Lucifer is a diferent entity to Satan. Lucifer is the fallen Archangel, Satan was merly a subordinate general or Archduke of Hell; Milton confused the two in "Paradise Lost") There are several allegories you could use to compare the Dragon to Lucifer, that concievably could be brought through the ages to the current Age, same with Perrin (Thor or Mithras) and Mat (Odin). Lucifer identifies with the the Dragon, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star" depending on the translation and Lews Therin could be described as a fallen figure who brought about great destruction.

 

I'm not certain with the way you've worded the question if you are wondering if the soul that we know as the Dragon could eventualy be reborn as Jesus or if Jesus was used as alegory for the character in the series.

[Vermillion]

I thought the Dragon was closer to Lucifer than Jesus, though there are elements of both in Rand. (Also bear in mind that Lucifer is a diferent entity to Satan. Lucifer is the fallen Archangel, Satan was merly a subordinate general or Archduke of Hell; Milton confused the two in "Paradise Lost") There are several allegories you could use to compare the Dragon to Lucifer, that concievably could be brought through the ages to the current Age, same with Perrin (Thor or Mithras) and Mat (Odin). Lucifer identifies with the the Dragon, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star" depending on the translation and Lews Therin could be described as a fallen figure who brought about great destruction.

 

I'm not certain with the way you've worded the question if you are wondering if the soul that we know as the Dragon could eventualy be reborn as Jesus or if Jesus was used as alegory for the character in the series.

 

 

The former. If Jesus or other mythological/relgiious figures could be the dragon's soul reborn in context with RJ saying that our "Age" is one of the turnings. I used Jesus because he defines our current age/subage BC/AD for most of the world.

[Shawnchan]

I thought the Dragon was closer to Lucifer than Jesus, though there are elements of both in Rand. (Also bear in mind that Lucifer is a diferent entity to Satan. Lucifer is the fallen Archangel, Satan was merly a subordinate general or Archduke of Hell; Milton confused the two in "Paradise Lost") There are several allegories you could use to compare the Dragon to Lucifer, that concievably could be brought through the ages to the current Age, same with Perrin (Thor or Mithras) and Mat (Odin). Lucifer identifies with the the Dragon, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star" depending on the translation and Lews Therin could be described as a fallen figure who brought about great destruction.

 

I'm not certain with the way you've worded the question if you are wondering if the soul that we know as the Dragon could eventualy be reborn as Jesus or if Jesus was used as alegory for the character in the series.

 

 

The former. If Jesus or other mythological/relgiious figures could be the dragon's soul reborn in context with RJ saying that our "Age" is one of the turnings. I used Jesus because he defines our current age/subage BC/AD for most of the world.

 

According to the 13th dep.

 

Lews/Rand is more in line with Lucifer.

 

The Lord of the morning is a name attributed to Lucifer. The first among servants The light bringer etc.

 

RJ took many elements from popular religions and from history to craft his world. It was just a vehicle to further his story.

 

At the end of his life he turned to the Communion. (Christianity, Catholicism)

 

It was one of the last things he did.

 

Should show us where his mind was at.

[Agitel]

Rand obviously has some Jesus parallels, and more than just the whole savior thing he has going on. The heron brands on his hands are stigmata, in their own way. He's also been pierced in the side with a spear, similar to how Jesus was prior to his death, according to the Christian gospels. We also have parallels to the end-times described in Revelation, most particularly with the idea of the seven seals. The Dark One breaking free, LTT's death and second-coming, and the DO touching the world for the entirety of an Age on some level (the Seals weren't perfect and he still managed to influence the world, at least by proxy) also serve as parallels. On top of that, we can also view the entirety of these events as what the legends of the war in heaven were about, with the fallen angels and everything (time is circular, so it can be both the 'beginning' and the 'end'). I think RJ may have been dodging a potentially sensitive subject with his comment on the question. With that said, Rand has influences from far more than just Christian mythology. Norse mythology and Arthurian legend seems to be the primary basis for his character and the events. Shayol Ghul sounds similar to "Sheol" from Hebrew mythology and Shai'tan without the apostrophe is the Arabic name for satan.

 

IMO some Jesus parallels were clearly intended. With that said, was RJ merely making Biblical allusions or trying to imply that Jesus was one former incarnation of LTT/Rand? I can't say.

[Agitel]

I thought the Dragon was closer to Lucifer than Jesus, though there are elements of both in Rand. (Also bear in mind that Lucifer is a diferent entity to Satan. Lucifer is the fallen Archangel, Satan was merly a subordinate general or Archduke of Hell; Milton confused the two in "Paradise Lost") There are several allegories you could use to compare the Dragon to Lucifer, that concievably could be brought through the ages to the current Age, same with Perrin (Thor or Mithras) and Mat (Odin). Lucifer identifies with the the Dragon, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star" depending on the translation and Lews Therin could be described as a fallen figure who brought about great destruction.

 

I'm not certain with the way you've worded the question if you are wondering if the soul that we know as the Dragon could eventualy be reborn as Jesus or if Jesus was used as alegory for the character in the series.

 

 

The former. If Jesus or other mythological/relgiious figures could be the dragon's soul reborn in context with RJ saying that our "Age" is one of the turnings. I used Jesus because he defines our current age/subage BC/AD for most of the world.

 

According to the 13th dep.

 

Lews/Rand is more in line with Lucifer.

 

The Lord of the morning is a name attributed to Lucifer. The first among servants The light bringer etc.

 

RJ took many elements from popular religions and from history to craft his world. It was just a vehicle to further his story.

 

At the end of his life he turned to the Communion. (Christianity, Catholicism)

 

It was one of the last things he did.

 

Should show us where his mind was at.

 

You could easily say that history turned to legends turned to myth distorted the roles of those involved within the WoT-verse. It's one of the primary themes of the series. RJ wasn't just making allegory, he was essentially writing what was to be the events that would inspire the mythology that we have today.

[Vermillion]

I thought the Dragon was closer to Lucifer than Jesus, though there are elements of both in Rand. (Also bear in mind that Lucifer is a diferent entity to Satan. Lucifer is the fallen Archangel, Satan was merly a subordinate general or Archduke of Hell; Milton confused the two in "Paradise Lost") There are several allegories you could use to compare the Dragon to Lucifer, that concievably could be brought through the ages to the current Age, same with Perrin (Thor or Mithras) and Mat (Odin). Lucifer identifies with the the Dragon, Lucifer means "Light Bringer" or "Morning Star" depending on the translation and Lews Therin could be described as a fallen figure who brought about great destruction.

 

I'm not certain with the way you've worded the question if you are wondering if the soul that we know as the Dragon could eventualy be reborn as Jesus or if Jesus was used as alegory for the character in the series.

 

 

The former. If Jesus or other mythological/relgiious figures could be the dragon's soul reborn in context with RJ saying that our "Age" is one of the turnings. I used Jesus because he defines our current age/subage BC/AD for most of the world.

 

According to the 13th dep.

 

Lews/Rand is more in line with Lucifer.

 

The Lord of the morning is a name attributed to Lucifer. The first among servants The light bringer etc.

 

RJ took many elements from popular religions and from history to craft his world. It was just a vehicle to further his story.

 

At the end of his life he turned to the Communion. (Christianity, Catholicism)

 

It was one of the last things he did.

 

Should show us where his mind was at.

 

Again not really what I'm getting at. Robert Jordan has said that our current, real life time is part of the Wheel of Time just the past/future.

 

The question I had, with that our world is Randland, was do you think Rand/Dragon Soul could be Jesus or any other mythological figure. Not about his parallels of their lives. If the Dragon Soul could literally be Jesus or other legends.

 

I could certainly see the Angels and Demons thing coming from War of Power in the Age of Legend from the previous turning of the wheel.

[Dagon Thyne]

Evidence shows that our age is supposed to be the 1st age of the current turning. I don't think the COL is born into each turning. The Pattern spun out LTT in the AOL because it was time for the DO's prison to be opened and the COL was needed to protect the world. If there was no DO prior to the Bore, then there would have been no reason for the COL to be born in our age. Therefore, no, I do not think that Jesus, or any other historical figure in our age would have been the previous COL.

[bsmnt23]

I think I see what you're getting at Vermillion. I think Birgete has established that the Heroes attatched to the Horn appear in TAR as the person they were when they were last spun out into the pattern, but that they can recognise each other regardless. Personaly, even though there may be several ages or even an end/beginning between our age and the Third age in Randland, I dont see the Dragon soul being a good candidate to play Jesus. It's hard to immagine the soul of the Dragon without seeing the character's we've met as it's incarnations, but it doesnt seem to fit. There were about 115 or so other Heroes attatched to the Horn (assuming no one is added when the Horn is next blown, looking at YOU Jaim Farstrider) and all of them are pretty epic so it shouldnt find one of them that would the Jesus role. I dont think we know enough about them to determine which one would be best, though; I think we know very little even about Birgete.

[Agitel]

Rand's soul could be spun out for a different purpose other than to fight off the Dark One. We do know that Rand is Tyr from Norse mythology, with Perrin and Mat being Thor and Odin, respectively.

 

I've wondered at times if Alexander the Great was Artur Hawking.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think I see what you're getting at Vermillion. I think Birgete has established that the Heroes attatched to the Horn appear in TAR as the person they were when they were last spun out into the pattern, but that they can recognise each other regardless. Personaly, even though there may be several ages or even an end/beginning between our age and the Third age in Randland, I dont see the Dragon soul being a good candidate to play Jesus. It's hard to immagine the soul of the Dragon without seeing the character's we've met as it's incarnations, but it doesnt seem to fit. There were about 115 or so other Heroes attatched to the Horn (assuming no one is added when the Horn is next blown, looking at YOU Jaim Farstrider) and all of them are pretty epic so it shouldnt find one of them that would the Jesus role. I dont think we know enough about them to determine which one would be best, though; I think we know very little even about Birgete.

 

I don't think anyone in the last 5 to 10 thousands years would have any baring on the COL. It would have been after the DO was resealed and the world would have no knowledge of the Dark One in the time of Christ.

[Agitel]

I think I see what you're getting at Vermillion. I think Birgete has established that the Heroes attatched to the Horn appear in TAR as the person they were when they were last spun out into the pattern, but that they can recognise each other regardless. Personaly, even though there may be several ages or even an end/beginning between our age and the Third age in Randland, I dont see the Dragon soul being a good candidate to play Jesus. It's hard to immagine the soul of the Dragon without seeing the character's we've met as it's incarnations, but it doesnt seem to fit. There were about 115 or so other Heroes attatched to the Horn (assuming no one is added when the Horn is next blown, looking at YOU Jaim Farstrider) and all of them are pretty epic so it shouldnt find one of them that would the Jesus role. I dont think we know enough about them to determine which one would be best, though; I think we know very little even about Birgete.

 

I don't think anyone in the last 5 to 10 thousands years would have any baring on the COL. It would have been after the DO was resealed and the world would have no knowledge of the Dark One in the time of Christ.

 

Satan/Shaitan.

 

Knowledge of the Dark One. Perhaps distorted knowledge, but knowledge.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think I see what you're getting at Vermillion. I think Birgete has established that the Heroes attatched to the Horn appear in TAR as the person they were when they were last spun out into the pattern, but that they can recognise each other regardless. Personaly, even though there may be several ages or even an end/beginning between our age and the Third age in Randland, I dont see the Dragon soul being a good candidate to play Jesus. It's hard to immagine the soul of the Dragon without seeing the character's we've met as it's incarnations, but it doesnt seem to fit. There were about 115 or so other Heroes attatched to the Horn (assuming no one is added when the Horn is next blown, looking at YOU Jaim Farstrider) and all of them are pretty epic so it shouldnt find one of them that would the Jesus role. I dont think we know enough about them to determine which one would be best, though; I think we know very little even about Birgete.

 

I don't think anyone in the last 5 to 10 thousands years would have any baring on the COL. It would have been after the DO was resealed and the world would have no knowledge of the Dark One in the time of Christ.

 

Satan/Shaitan.

 

Knowledge of the Dark One. Perhaps distorted knowledge, but knowledge.

 

RJ basing names off of our legends does not mean he intended those legends to be part of the story itself....

[Shawnchan]

Rand's soul could be spun out for a different purpose other than to fight off the Dark One. We do know that Rand is Tyr from Norse mythology, with Perrin and Mat being Thor and Odin, respectively.

 

I've wondered at times if Alexander the Great was Artur Hawking.

 

This.^

 

I think that this more in line with the intended interpretation.

 

Are there Jesus parallels?

 

Of course. Savior of the world. To die and live again.

 

Its obvious that RJ took cues from every religion and mythology from every region of the world.

 

My assertion is that Jesus was not the main inspiration for the archetype.

 

Lews and his monikers most closely mirror Lucifer and his names. As well as his seat of power and dominion. "First among Servants" "Lord of the Morning" "King of the World" These are names directly attributed to Lucifer.

 

Again another play on cultural beliefs.

[Shawnchan]

I think I see what you're getting at Vermillion. I think Birgete has established that the Heroes attatched to the Horn appear in TAR as the person they were when they were last spun out into the pattern, but that they can recognise each other regardless. Personaly, even though there may be several ages or even an end/beginning between our age and the Third age in Randland, I dont see the Dragon soul being a good candidate to play Jesus. It's hard to immagine the soul of the Dragon without seeing the character's we've met as it's incarnations, but it doesnt seem to fit. There were about 115 or so other Heroes attatched to the Horn (assuming no one is added when the Horn is next blown, looking at YOU Jaim Farstrider) and all of them are pretty epic so it shouldnt find one of them that would the Jesus role. I dont think we know enough about them to determine which one would be best, though; I think we know very little even about Birgete.

 

I don't think anyone in the last 5 to 10 thousands years would have any baring on the COL. It would have been after the DO was resealed and the world would have no knowledge of the Dark One in the time of Christ.

 

Satan/Shaitan.

 

Knowledge of the Dark One. Perhaps distorted knowledge, but knowledge.

 

RJ basing names off of our legends does not mean he intended those legends to be part of the story itself....

 

 

I disagree.

 

In the books it has always been substantiated that with the telling of stories facts get distorted.

[jsbrads]

A better question is: Was Jesus a Dragon? and the answer is quiet simply no.

You see the dragon is based on a concept of a messiah, characters like Rand, Neo and others represent in fictional works.

And even if u believe all of the myths of Jesus, Jesus falls short of being a messiah, Neo and Rand meet the requirements...

 

Unrelated to the previous discussion: Other messianic characters like Prometheus and Hercules (are really the same character) do reach a proto-level of messianic achievement (later, pagans bequeathed their attributes to Jesus, to make an attempted messiah into a god)