Cadsuane

[thisguy]

I'm sorry, Sutt. She's rude to everyone. The first counselor she meets she's rude to. Her plan with everyone is to be rude, whether there's a deeper reason or not. Other people have plans too, but if it involved them being rude to her she'd flip. That's what it seems like.

 

Not sure what you are sorry about. We know for fact in this instance her and Aleis had a history. That is why se secured the pledge from the WF that she goes wherever they do. This gained her access and allowed her to play to a position of strength which was needed for when they play their gambit with the guardian. Have you finished that section of the book? If so you know what the plan was and why she was acting that way. This actually shows how much she really cares. You have a ruler in Aleis that she made strong in the first place many years back. Which she then has to tear down because of her pledge to do what is best for Rand and she highly regrets the need for it. This is one of those seems that really show the depth of her character. To me it's almost inconceivable that people ignore her hatching a brilliant plan which saves Rand and focus on the fact that her plan included needing to force her way into a palace. It's like yeah she saved Rand so he will have a chance to fight at TG but she was rude!!! I mean really?

 

Sutt, it may just be the way RJ wrote her that I don't like. This seems to be the way Cadsuane works. She needs to do something and wants to be crafty about it. She tells those in her group what they need to know. Some more than others, which is fine. She tells the ones who need to be in the know:

"We're going to (fill in the blank) there will be a man/woman at the door. When we enter, I will be outwardly rude to him/her - to throw him/her off. When they bring us to Person B, I will be rude to that person in a slightly different way. While I'm being rude with this person, I want you to....." etc

 

It's kind of ridiculous.

 

Come on now, at this point you are being disingenuous about the scene. She forced the invite and was rude to gain access. From there they have an Ashaman channel to set off the guardian with all present, which sets up the play down the line using the well to pretend there is a chink in the protection to rescue Rand. At that point we see her deeply regret the need to do it all. To claim what you are here and only focus on the first step of her being rude is purposely ignoring the point of this section is an unfair judgement.

But, you're looking at one scene - put it in context of all the scenes where she's trying to be crafty - she comes into the sun palace, the maidens announce her to Rand, without even giving him a moment, she barges through the door and ACTS RUDE to prod him and see how he'll react. It's like being rude is her special power. Rand's a ninja blademaster channeler and ta'veren. Perrin's a brother of the wolf, blacksmith ta'veren. Mat's a battlemaster, super lucky ta'veren. Cadsuane is AS with the special power of getting what she wants or needs by being rude. And, she has the nerve to ask for civility from everyone else. What was the purpose of her smacking Rand in the face? He cursed? OMG!!! In her divine presence and so she hits him in the face. What kind of person does that? If he fried her on the spot, I wouldn't have cared.

 

Edit to add: Rand should seal her in the Bore with the DO to torment him until someone pierces the Bore again.

[Vardar]

When they're in Far Madding and she meets with the Counsel, Cadsuane acts like an Empress from the first moment, before anybody is rude to her. It's her way or the highway with everyone. She acts like she's the Creator made flesh. I do not believe that she knows better than every single person she comes into contact with.

 

As has been discussed many times on these boards she was doing so for a specific purpose. It was all part of her plan to be in a positions to help should anything happen to Rand. She needed access to the palace and guardians for the plan to work. That whole section of WH was written by RJ to show her meticulous planning. Everytime she acts in that manner thisguy you have to dig a bit deeper and ask yourself why and then see what the end result is. In this case rescuing Rand from madness and being shipped back to Elaida.

 

The point is, in his mind, those atrocities were commited for the better of man. In Cad's mind, genteling men was for the better of man right? Those men will die, essentially you're murdering them (I call it like I see it, they don't live a natural life, and die before their time, it's murder), however it's justified. We as the readers know genteling men is a good thing, however you have to think that Nial thinks the world would be a better place if WC's ruled and all AS were dead. His actions, while horrible ot you, are great to some. The main point being, if you use someone's viewpoint to rationalize their decisions, anything is rationalized.

 

Few things wrong here. First off Nial was purposely commuting murder to further WC power(not work toward the light) with a power grab for those uncontested lands. Second at the point a man stars to channel he has an incurable disease. He is going to die, so no what Cads does is not murder. You are calling it wrong. She is saving the world from destruction and the men from madness and a painful death from the rot. Further she does so in a way that integrates them back into society and gives them much longer normal life than any other AS. Lastly your are attempting to present this situation as if we as readers don't know the context. Per the author she is a throw back to what AS should be and has earned her reputation working for the light. We know that is not the case with Nial.

 

In Nial's mind, the WC is working towards the Light. We're debating perception here right? If Cad's is allowed to do the things she does, because her perception is she's right and they deserve it, then by the same logic, Nial is right.

 

Secondly I said what she does with the men is ok. I still think it's murder, but theres a solid reason behind it and she has the authority to do that. The rest of the rudeness she commits, she has 0 authority to do. But her perception is that it's her job, and you seem to think that gives her the right.

[Suttree]

When they're in Far Madding and she meets with the Counsel, Cadsuane acts like an Empress from the first moment, before anybody is rude to her. It's her way or the highway with everyone. She acts like she's the Creator made flesh. I do not believe that she knows better than every single person she comes into contact with.

 

As has been discussed many times on these boards she was doing so for a specific purpose. It was all part of her plan to be in a positions to help should anything happen to Rand. She needed access to the palace and guardians for the plan to work. That whole section of WH was written by RJ to show her meticulous planning. Everytime she acts in that manner thisguy you have to dig a bit deeper and ask yourself why and then see what the end result is. In this case rescuing Rand from madness and being shipped back to Elaida.

 

The point is, in his mind, those atrocities were commited for the better of man. In Cad's mind, genteling men was for the better of man right? Those men will die, essentially you're murdering them (I call it like I see it, they don't live a natural life, and die before their time, it's murder), however it's justified. We as the readers know genteling men is a good thing, however you have to think that Nial thinks the world would be a better place if WC's ruled and all AS were dead. His actions, while horrible ot you, are great to some. The main point being, if you use someone's viewpoint to rationalize their decisions, anything is rationalized.

 

Few things wrong here. First off Nial was purposely commuting murder to further WC power(not work toward the light) with a power grab for those uncontested lands. Second at the point a man stars to channel he has an incurable disease. He is going to die, so no what Cads does is not murder. You are calling it wrong. She is saving the world from destruction and the men from madness and a painful death from the rot. Further she does so in a way that integrates them back into society and gives them much longer normal life than any other AS. Lastly your are attempting to present this situation as if we as readers don't know the context. Per the author she is a throw back to what AS should be and has earned her reputation working for the light. We know that is not the case with Nial.

 

In Nial's mind, the WC is working towards the Light. We're debating perception here right? If Cad's is allowed to do the things she does, because her perception is she's right and they deserve it, then by the same logic, Nial is right.

 

Secondly I said what she does with the men is ok. I still think it's murder, but theres a solid reason behind it and she has the authority to do that. The rest of the rudeness she commits, she has 0 authority to do. But her perception is that it's her job, and you seem to think that gives her the right.

 

It is an AS mandate to face the shadow and work for the greater good. Per RJ that is what she is doing and not what the WCs are doing. Again we as readers know the context. The author states she is a throwback to what AS should be. Further we know through her track record that her judgement is largely correct. You can't look at it in a vacuum as if we don't know the reality.

 

I'm actually more intrigued by the severing question now however. Again a man who channels is destined to go mad and die a horrific death soon after from the rot. How is curing them, reintegrating them into society and giving them a longer than normal life in that situation murder?

[thisguy]

Someone can do good things and still be an a$#@%!. The WC believe that they are there fighting for the light and all that it stands for. But, that's not the point, we were talking about perception and point of view.

 

RJ wrote her as super AS. It's obvious. I actually have no problem with that but for someone so special she resorts to force, blackmail, bullying and incivility at every turn. How many royals has she spanked? Seems to me she just likes to mistreat people of rank and power.

[Suttree]

RJ wrote her as super AS. It's obvious. I actually have no problem with that but for someone so special she resorts to force, blackmail, bullying and incivility at every turn. How many royals has she spanked? Seems to me she just likes to mistreat people of rank and power.

 

That's what you think? She likes to mistreat people of power? See this is what I'm talking about. If thats what you take way from Far Madding you are either missing the context or purposely ignoring it. She shows how much she regrets having to do so in that very scene.

 

Further the author tells us exactly why she treated those kings that way and it made them better in the long run. We also see her use other methods so again to say she resorts to those things at "every turn" is factually incorrect.

[Vardar]

It is an AS mandate to face the shadow and work for the greater good. Per RJ that is what she is doing and not what the WCs are doing. Again we as readers know the context. The author states she is a throwback to what AS should be. Further we know through her track record that her judgement is largely correct. You can't look at it in a vacuum as if we don't know the reality.

 

I'm actually more intrigued by the severing question now however. Again a man who channels is destined to go mad and die a horrific death soon after from the rot. How is curing them, reintegrating them into society and giving them a longer than normal life in that situation murder?

 

Ok I'm sorry,being rude to sitting rulers because you feel they aren't doing their job right is not serving the light. Not by a far shot.

 

As for the second part, perfect RL example: Jack Kevorkian. Those men still died before their time, they might have lived longer if she had never gentled them (yes it's a long shot, but some of these channelers live a long time before going mad). I'm not arguing the point that what she didn't was within her authority, I agree with you there. I'm saying that is a good excuse. She commits what basically amounts to murder, however she does it for an actual good cause (Although the innocent man probably doesn't think so).

 

So that's a good example of someone doing something within their authority, regardless of what happens, for good results. She's working towards the light. Nial believs he's working towards the light too. Who is to say he's wrong? Us? AS? The ruler of Taboran she gentled, and his followers, probably thought Cads was wrong, Everything is in perception. There's no way the book characters can know what we know (all sides of the story), therefore their actions are made based purely on their perception, therefore we can conclude that claiming that Cad's is valid in everything she does because she treats people how she believes they deserve to be treated (Regardles if it's true, it only matters that she believes it) is faulty logic which would mean that Nail is innocent as well.

Make sense now?

[thisguy]

RJ wrote her as super AS. It's obvious. I actually have no problem with that but for someone so special she resorts to force, blackmail, bullying and incivility at every turn. How many royals has she spanked? Seems to me she just likes to mistreat people of rank and power.

 

That's what you think? She likes to mistreat people of power? See this is what I'm talking about. If thats what you take way from Far Madding you are either missing the context or purposely ignoring it. She shows how much she regrets having to do so in that very scene.

 

Further the author tells us exactly why she treated those kings that way and it made them better in the long run. We also see her use other methods so again to say she resorts to those things at "every turn" is factually incorrect.

Every turn is a slight exaggeration at the most. Her whole history is replete with incidents of violence, blackmail, bullying and incivility. She raises her hand to people if she doesn't like the way that they act. Some of them might deserve it even. I live in NYC and run into people every day who are rude, I don't resort to smacking them. She later admits to handling Rand incorrectly. Perhaps, if she weren't a bully, she may have gotten somewhere with him earlier. She's used to getting her way. As I said above, perhaps I just don't like the way RJ wrote her. The way he wrote her, she gets things done but uses the tactics I've said she uses to do most of them. Other characters seem to get things done without resorting to that. She smacks Rand in Far Madding for cursing - is that how she's going to teach him laughter and tears??? Most of the main characters curse. Elayne collects them, even though she doesn't understand them. Can you imagine if any of the other characters went around treating people that way because they didn't agree with how they acted?

 

Edit to add: The only reason I can see for someone having a problem with how she treated Tam is that she used the power. If she hit him, I think it wouldn't have been outside of her character.

[Suttree]

There's no way the book characters can know what we know (all sides of the story), therefore their actions are made based purely on their perception, therefore we can conclude that claiming that Cad's is valid in everything she does because she treats people how she believes they deserve to be treated (Regardles if it's true, it only matters that she believes it) is faulty logic which would mean that Nail is innocent as well.

Make sense now?

 

It certainly is if you are making them better rulers and making their country stronger, "belief and order give strength" and that helps the light. We know that is what she was doing. Not sure why people feel the need to insinuate some other motive because we know the truth of the matter.

 

I've never once made the claim that she is always right. Question for you though. When you in your personnel life are judging whether someone is worthy of respect how do you go about it? You study their actions and deeds and come to a decision. You don't allow others to define it for you right? So now we have Cads who has lived longer and accomplished more than perhaps anyone in the world and you say it is unfair that "she decides" whether she thinks someone is worthy of respect? How does that follow? When I say that the vast majority of the time she treats people based on their actions how else would you expect someone to come to that decision?

 

As an aside we know Nial doesn't always believe he is working towards the light. The land grabs had nothing to do with serving the light and he knew that. It was purely poltiical for him in thos instances per his thoughts..

[thisguy]

There's no way the book characters can know what we know (all sides of the story), therefore their actions are made based purely on their perception, therefore we can conclude that claiming that Cad's is valid in everything she does because she treats people how she believes they deserve to be treated (Regardles if it's true, it only matters that she believes it) is faulty logic which would mean that Nail is innocent as well.

Make sense now?

 

It certainly is if you are making them better rulers and making their country stronger, "belief and order give strength" and that helps the light. We know that is what she was doing. Not sure why people feel the need to insinuate some other motive because we know the truth of the matter.

 

I've never once made the claim that she is always right. Question for you though. When you in your personnel life are judging whether someone is worthy of respect how do you go about it? You study their actions and deeds and come to a decision. You don't allow others to define it for you right? So now we have Cads who has lived longer and accomplished more than perhaps anyone in the world and you say it is unfair that "she decides" whether she thinks someone is worthy of respect? How does that follow? When I say that the vast majority of the time she treats people based on their actions how else would you expect someone to come to that decision?

 

As an aside we know Nial doesn't always believe he is working towards the light. The land grabs had nothing to do with serving the light and he knew that. It was purely poltiical for him in thos instances per his thoughts..

The reason I brought up Nial in the first place was to bring up pov. All we know of Cadsuane from the book is from an AS pov. If the first 8 chapters of the books were from WC pov, we'd think Nial was wonderful.

She treats people on their actions? Right. Rand, a grown man curses and she smacks him. How is that respectful in the least. No one's allowed to curse in her presence. OMG!!!! Sorry, she's not that special. She's not queen of the world.

And, when I come to a conclusion about somebody's character, if I think they stink, I wouldn't smack them in the face. They'd have to do something like assault a woman for me to raise a hand to them, and I'm not a small guy. I'm not disagreeing that she often gets the results she sets out to get, I'm saying she's an incivil, bullying, violent woman. If she didn't achieve the results she has with those tactics, would you still back her?

[Vardar]

There's no way the book characters can know what we know (all sides of the story), therefore their actions are made based purely on their perception, therefore we can conclude that claiming that Cad's is valid in everything she does because she treats people how she believes they deserve to be treated (Regardles if it's true, it only matters that she believes it) is faulty logic which would mean that Nail is innocent as well.

Make sense now?

 

It certainly is if you are making them better rulers and making their country stronger, "belief and order give strength" and that helps the light. We know that is what she was doing. Not sure why people feel the need to insinuate some other motive because we know the truth of the matter.

 

I've never once made the claim that she is always right. Question for you though. When you in your personnel life are judging whether someone is worthy of respect how do you go about it? You study their actions and deeds and come to a decision. You don't allow others to define it for you right? So now we have Cads who has lived longer and accomplished more than perhaps anyone in the world and you say it is unfair that "she decides" whether she thinks someone is worthy of respect? How does that follow? When I say that the vast majority of the time she treats people based on their actions how else would you expect someone to come to that decision?

 

As an aside we know Nial doesn't always believe he is working towards the light. The land grabs had nothing to do with serving the light and he knew that. It was purely poltiical for him in thos instances per his thoughts..

 

Who's to say those rulers wouldn't have deat with the issue on their own? Again, what RIGHT does she have to interfere with a free country and it's rulers? Claiming it's for the light is saying what the WC's do is justified too.

 

I pay everyone the same Respect that I would wish to receive from them. If they don't afford me the Respect I believe I deserve, it doesn't change the way I treat or respect them. I don't sink to their level.

 

I'm not saying you said she's always right, but you justify her rudeness saying it's how she believes people deserve to be treated. My point is, that is no justification at all. Believing she's right in her actions, doesn't make it so.

 

He does believe he's working for the light. Everything he does he does because he believes the WCs are the best ones to lead Mankind against the trollocs (That he thinks will be true last battle). Now, we as readers know he's delusional, however since he's operating under what he believes to be true, it gives validation in your world.

 

 

Did you ever read any Dragonlance? It's a damn good example of what I'm talking about here. They give a few examples where the Dark side speaks to the "Light" and tells them in their world, their God teaches them that a world under the control of one God would be better than the chaos that reigns now. What made their God the good side? What right did their God have to kill the "evil" side and claim it was done for the good of man?

[BFG]

Sorry, mistake

[Suttree]

Who's to say those rulers wouldn't have deat with the issue on their own? Again, what RIGHT does she have to interfere with a free country and it's rulers? Claiming it's for the light is saying what the WC's do is justified too.

 

Most countries have AS advisors either openly or in secret. The borderlands usually have far more than one. They are given the right by the rulers themselves. It is tradition in this world that AS work in politics and their efforts have forged numerous treaties and averted wars. Again it is work for the greater good.

 

That is not some when it comes to WCs and their efforts to overtake lands for political gain..

[thisguy]

I should never have mentioned the WC and Pedron Nial as an example of POV. MAybe, the Empress and the Seanchan would have been a better example. Under the many generations of rulers of the Seanchan all female channelers have been collared, enslaved and controlled. Generations ago, the seanchan wiped out all shadowspawn on their continent. They're obviously against the DO and for the light. However, I doubt that there are many who would agree with enslaving every woman with a scrap of OP. But, they fight for the light, they've gotten good results against the DO - they are just slavers. But, no one can argue with their results. To most seanchan, the Emperess is the Creator made flesh, more important than the DR, and you better not say a word against her - Unless you're her Voice or Speaker or whatever they call it.

[Vardar]

Who's to say those rulers wouldn't have deat with the issue on their own? Again, what RIGHT does she have to interfere with a free country and it's rulers? Claiming it's for the light is saying what the WC's do is justified too.

 

Most countries have AS advisors either openly or in secret. The borderlands usually have far more than one. They are given the right by the rulers themselves. It is tradition in this world that AS work in politics and their efforts have forged numerous treaties and averted wars. Again it is work for the greater good.

 

That is not some when it comes to WCs and their efforts to overtake lands for political gain..

 

Advisor doesn't give the authority she displays.

[pilgram]

actually we do have a mention of her inflating her reputation, which was soon after she was introduced, with the tin box

 

Not sure what you are referring to? Regardless we know per RJ that her reputation is solid and has been earned. Not only where the stories true but in most cases were more than the story told. I understand some people don't like her but the facts are she is a throw back to what Greens are supposed to be and doesn't let WT politics get in the way of her doing good for the light. Again this comes straight from the author.

 

That is why I don' understand thisguy's point above. We know Cads's track record for the light means she has earned her reputation. On the flip Nial has actually commited atrocities to further his cause. It doesn't matter how the WCs view him, we as readers know the truth of it.

 

If Nial had magical ability that would allow him to walk in on heads of states and beat them until they oblige to his demands, do you think he would still use tactics we saw him use? And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)

[Suttree]

And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)

 

What is this in reference to? What about Siuan?

 

I pay everyone the same Respect that I would wish to receive from them. If they don't afford me the Respect I believe I deserve, it doesn't change the way I treat or respect them. I don't sink to their level.

 

Cads doesn't necesarily have that luxury. I know in the past you have stated there never is a time for being rude. I think however as in the case with Aleis for instance, if it comes down to ruffling some feathers/intimidating in order to save the prophesized savior of the world from madness and Elaida then that is what you have to do. Again keep in mind there is almost always a very distinct reason for her actions and we see she doesn't enjoy it as a bully would, in fact she regrets the necessity...

 

WH

"Not so much a flaw as a barn door, seems to me," Darner announced. "I think it's prettier on your head."

The glow of the Power suddenly shone around Nynaeve, and the coronet flew toward Aleis, slowing at the last instant so that it settled above her bloodless face rather than cracking her head. The light of saidar did not vanish from the girl, though. Well, let her drain her Well.

"Will . . . ?" Aleis swallowed, but when she went on, her voice still cracked. "Will it be sufficient if we release him to you?" Whether she meant Cadsuane or the Asha'man was unclear, perhaps even to her.

"I think that it will," Cadsuane said calmly, and Aleis sagged like a stringless puppet. Shocked as they were by the display of channeling, questioning looks passed between the other Counsels. Eyes darted toward Aleis, faces firmed, nods were exchanged. Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's, and now she had broken a good woman for his good. "I am very sorry, Aleis," she said. You are building up a large account already, boy, she thought.

[pilgram]

And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)

 

What is this in reference to? What about Siuan?

 

It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name.

[Suttree]

And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)

 

What is this in reference to? What about Siuan?

 

It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name.

 

Ah the Murandian Siuan wanted to put on the throne that was killed in a raid? Murandy as a nation has a "troubled" history and I'm sure Siuan was looking for a way to provide stability. No one has said they are infallible but again we know from RJ's notes that Cads' track record is legit.

[pilgram]

And besides, what about Siuan and Dulain (speling?)

 

What is this in reference to? What about Siuan?

 

It's about presumable north-murandian noble Dulain whom Siuan wanted to establish as ruler and one to unite Murandy. Mentioned in first Siuan conversation with Bryne at Salidar, about halfway through TFOH. Basicaly, Siuan and Elaida pressed Morgase to ignore his raids in Andor. I could be misremembering his name.

 

Ah the Murandian Siuan wanted to put on the throne that was killed in a raid? Murandy as a nation has a "troubled" history and I'm sure Siuan was looking for a way to provide stability. No one has said they are infallible but again we know from RJ's notes that Cads' track record is legit.

 

When you spoke of atrocities Niall committed I assumed that you meant his plans for Murandy and Altara - the brigands and Dragonsworn he commanded Carridin to usher as well as what WC sent to Almoth Plain in TGH did. Now, what do you think "raid" is? Because I think that Dulain was crossing border and assaulting, pillaging and killing andorans until he was ignominiously slain. Which is not really different from what WC did, and as Siuan had him doing those things (picked by the Tower to unite Murandy, remember?) well... pot meet kettle. And Niall was definitely trying to provide stability and unity of humanity before large scale invasion of Shadowspawn - we see that in his POV in prologue of TDR.

[Mr Ares]

We'll never agree on this. The woman asks for civility but often has no manners of her own.

 

Shrug. Ok, but the only problem with your statement is we do see her offer civility and manners when the person she is facing has been acting in a way that is deserving of respect. To say she has "no manners of her own" is factually incorrect.

The only issue with your statement is that you leave off the fact that she is the deciding factor if they deserve respect. When discussing the behavior of someone, how can you rationalize that person's behavior using flawed beliefs. That's my biggest beef with your stance, you fall back on that statement, to which the proper response is "Of course someone like Cad's would say that, it's a handy excuse to do whatever you want.

But it's not something Cadsuane says. It is something readers say about her. So it's not really the proper response.

 

Her behavior shows she believes that crock. She doesn't have to say it.

 

I mean, we could get down the nitty gritty and argue what gives AS the "authority" to do any of those things? What gives her the right to "steady" kingdoms, disrespect Kings and Queens, walk over wheoever she wants? Oddly enough, the only thing that she does that I won't knock her for is Murdering men (Genteling them). That's something the WT has direct authority over. I'll give them that. But the rest? It's her own sense of power and ego.

What right does anyone have to try to make the world a better place? And there is a big difference between gentling and murder. Gentling is not an inherently fatal process. As we've seen in Setalle Anan, it is possible for someone who has been severed to go on to live a long, fulfilled life. We don't have statistics on the survival rates of gentled men, beyond that those brought in by Cadsuane tended to live longer. Emarin lived ten years. Ten years without the madness, without the rotting. Granted, gentling is an imperfect solution, but to compare it to murder is absurd. If a doctor carried out a risky medical procedure as it was the only possible way to save the patients life, yet the patient didn't survive the procedure, would you consider the doctor a murderer? For doing the only thing he could to preserve the life of his patient?

 

It is important to note that the justifications of Cadsuane's character put forward by fans are not rooted solely in her viewpoint. We see her actions, and decide for ourselves if we think she is justified in doing what she does. We see a woman who adapts her tactics depending on who she is dealing with. A woman whose belief in her own abilities is backed up by centuries of experience. We see her actions doing more good than harm. She spanks a ruler, said ruler ends up more secure in his rule than he was before. Now, that might not be the only possible solution, it might not be the "best" solution, but it was an effective solution. So she has a track record of coming up with solutions to problems. She provokes Rand to learn of his character. You might question her methods, although you have yet to put forward a better way of learning what sort of thing this man is made of, especially one that is so quick and efficient. And she does learn of his character. What she does works, and you haven't offered a better solution. What does that tell us? That Cadsuane's actions can be justified, not just in her own mind, but in the minds of the readers.

 

Ok I'm sorry,being rude to sitting rulers because you feel they aren't doing their job right is not serving the light. Not by a far shot.

How so, when it results in said rulers doing a better job?

 

So that's a good example of someone doing something within their authority, regardless of what happens, for good results. She's working towards the light. Nial believs he's working towards the light too. Who is to say he's wrong? Us?

Yes. Precisely. Us. We see Niall's actions, and can say that no matter how justified he felt he was, we disagree with his actions. How did the Light benefit? Further, given our knowledge some of the things he believed to be lies we know to be truths. By the same token, we can see Cadsuane's actions, the effects of those actions, the harm and good that arises, and make a judgement on whether or not she was justified in acting how she did. Did shemake things better or worse? Well, in most respects she made things better. She made a small mistake in TGS, but then realised she had made a mistake and worked to correct it. Ultimately, she did succeed in her goal, although admittedly not in precisely the way she had intended.

 

The reason I brought up Nial in the first place was to bring up pov. All we know of Cadsuane from the book is from an AS pov. If the first 8 chapters of the books were from WC pov, we'd think Nial was wonderful.

We've seen a lot of AS pov, and we tend not to think they are wonderful. A deeply flawed organisation is the most common view. Readers are entirely capable of making up their minds and disagreeing with characters. The AS think Cadsuane is wonderful. We see evidence to back up that she really is that damn good.

 

And, when I come to a conclusion about somebody's character, if I think they stink, I wouldn't smack them in the face. They'd have to do something like assault a woman for me to raise a hand to them, and I'm not a small guy. I'm not disagreeing that she often gets the results she sets out to get, I'm saying she's an incivil, bullying, violent woman. If she didn't achieve the results she has with those tactics, would you still back her?

If she didn't achieve results, it would surely indicate that she had chosen a bad course of action. Therefore, no matter how justified she felt in slapping people around, we could say that she only ever made things worse. As it is, she does get results. So we, the readers, can draw conclusions rather than merely parroting the AS view of her. And we can say that, yes, se is justified in what she does. She is uncivil when she needs to be, which is not as often as is made out. She bullies when she needs to, but this is an exception not a rule. She has, on occasion, resorted to violence. And we can see that she feels she has reason to do so, and we can agree that she really does have good reason. Her way might not be the only way, but it is a way that works.

 

Who's to say those rulers wouldn't have deat with the issue on their own? Again, what RIGHT does she have to interfere with a free country and it's rulers? Claiming it's for the light is saying what the WC's do is justified too.

No. We can see the benefit of Cadsuane's actions. Can we see that of the Whitecloaks? Both might feel they are justified in their actions because they act for the Light. We can agree with one but not the other. Maybe these rulers would have dealt with their problems by themselves. Maybe not. But to me it seems very strange to try and claim that she lacks a mandate to help people. Surely everyone in the world has that right.

 

I pay everyone the same Respect that I would wish to receive from them. If they don't afford me the Respect I believe I deserve, it doesn't change the way I treat or respect them. I don't sink to their level.

 

I'm not saying you said she's always right, but you justify her rudeness saying it's how she believes people deserve to be treated. My point is, that is no justification at all. Believing she's right in her actions, doesn't make it so.

No. But when we can see from evidence outside her viewpoint that she is right, then it does make it so.

 

I should never have mentioned the WC and Pedron Nial as an example of POV. MAybe, the Empress and the Seanchan would have been a better example. Under the many generations of rulers of the Seanchan all female channelers have been collared, enslaved and controlled. Generations ago, the seanchan wiped out all shadowspawn on their continent. They're obviously against the DO and for the light. However, I doubt that there are many who would agree with enslaving every woman with a scrap of OP. But, they fight for the light, they've gotten good results against the DO - they are just slavers. But, no one can argue with their results. To most seanchan, the Emperess is the Creator made flesh, more important than the DR, and you better not say a word against her - Unless you're her Voice or Speaker or whatever they call it.

The Shadowspawn were wiped out by the Armies of the Night, before Luthair came. So it was the AS he saw fit to enslave that killed the Shadowspawn. What have the Seanchan done for the Light, or against the Shadow? As for their enslaving of female channelers, they see them as being too dangerous to be left uncollared. We have seen the results of women who can channel being left to their own devices. Turns out, they're just people. They don't really have a sound foundation for their beliefs with regards to channelers, because the idea they base their beliefs on is demonstrably false. Cadsuane might think that she always knows best, but if the results bear out the conclusion that she does, then it is less a sign of conceit than it is a reasonable assessment.

[Vardar]

Cads doesn't necesarily have that luxury. I know in the past you have stated there never is a time for being rude. I think however as in the case with Aleis for instance, if it comes down to ruffling some feathers/intimidating in order to save the prophesized savior of the world from madness and Elaida then that is what you have to do. Again keep in mind there is almost always a very distinct reason for her actions and we see she doesn't enjoy it as a bully would, in fact she regrets the necessity...

 

Actually the scene that you posted wasn't bad. I'd be hard pressed to call that rude.

 

What right does anyone have to try to make the world a better place? And there is a big difference between gentling and murder. Gentling is not an inherently fatal process. As we've seen in Setalle Anan, it is possible for someone who has been severed to go on to live a long, fulfilled life. We don't have statistics on the survival rates of gentled men, beyond that those brought in by Cadsuane tended to live longer. Emarin lived ten years. Ten years without the madness, without the rotting. Granted, gentling is an imperfect solution, but to compare it to murder is absurd. If a doctor carried out a risky medical procedure as it was the only possible way to save the patients life, yet the patient didn't survive the procedure, would you consider the doctor a murderer? For doing the only thing he could to preserve the life of his patient?

 

Settele was not gentled, she burned herself out. There's a difference.

 

1) You cannot provide numbers proving someone will always live longer if gentled

2) There is proof that someone who is gentled will die before their time. It's been said multiple times.

3) So since there is no evidence that they would have died in a shorter period if you gentle, then it's murder. Now as I stated, it's justified murder. Hell, I'll even call it unwanted assisted suicide if you'd like. But it's still a direct action on an AS's part that will lead to a death.

 

 

 

It is important to note that the justifications of Cadsuane's character put forward by fans are not rooted solely in her viewpoint. We see her actions, and decide for ourselves if we think she is justified in doing what she does. We see a woman who adapts her tactics depending on who she is dealing with. A woman whose belief in her own abilities is backed up by centuries of experience. We see her actions doing more good than harm. She spanks a ruler, said ruler ends up more secure in his rule than he was before. Now, that might not be the only possible solution, it might not be the "best" solution, but it was an effective solution. So she has a track record of coming up with solutions to problems. She provokes Rand to learn of his character. You might question her methods, although you have yet to put forward a better way of learning what sort of thing this man is made of, especially one that is so quick and efficient. And she does learn of his character. What she does works, and you haven't offered a better solution. What does that tell us? That Cadsuane's actions can be justified, not just in her own mind, but in the minds of the readers.

 

Here we go. We see her actions do more good than harm, however we don't see her try something else (Except when she has no choice and she's smart enough to understand rudeness won't work). That's not a great track record to compare. As far as we know, being polite would have worked just as well. We'll never know because she didn't do it (Barring those rare exceptions).

 

How so, when it results in said rulers doing a better job?

Not her country, not her king/queen, not her business. Also, who measures "a better job"? Her? Don't make me laugh. She has the audicity to presume she knows what's best for a country that exisited before she was around why? Oh yea, becaus she has magical powers and who can stop her. Know what that is? The actions of a tyrant. She has no right to do those things, (Aside from genteling) and I see how you keep glossing over that.

 

Yes. Precisely. Us. We see Niall's actions, and can say that no matter how justified he felt he was, we disagree with his actions. How did the Light benefit? Further, given our knowledge some of the things he believed to be lies we know to be truths. By the same token, we can see Cadsuane's actions, the effects of those actions, the harm and good that arises, and make a judgement on whether or not she was justified in acting how she did. Did shemake things better or worse? Well, in most respects she made things better. She made a small mistake in TGS, but then realised she had made a mistake and worked to correct it. Ultimately, she did succeed in her goal, although admittedly not in precisely the way she had intended.

 

And you ignored the entire part about how she doesn't have our viewpoint, therefore at the most basic level, they're both doing what they think is right, and if you're going to excuse any atrocity Cads does using that logic you must unbiasedly excuse Nial as well. But then again, I understand you're not unbiased.

 

We've seen a lot of AS pov, and we tend not to think they are wonderful. A deeply flawed organisation is the most common view. Readers are entirely capable of making up their minds and disagreeing with characters. The AS think Cadsuane is wonderful. We see evidence to back up that she really is that damn good.

 

Lies. I've never seen Cads referred too by another AS as wonderful.

 

No. We can see the benefit of Cadsuane's actions. Can we see that of the Whitecloaks? Both might feel they are justified in their actions because they act for the Light. We can agree with one but not the other. Maybe these rulers would have dealt with their problems by themselves. Maybe not. But to me it seems very strange to try and claim that she lacks a mandate to help people. Surely everyone in the world has that right.

 

This is what I'm talking about.

 

You cannot claim Cads can do whatever she wants because she wants to help people while claiming Nail cannot even though he wants to help people. If Cads has the right to impose her will upon an independent country, because she wants to help, then Nial has that same right. Now I understand you're biased, but I'll be damned if I continue a debate with you refusing to admit you're biased while contridicting yourself in your own statements.

 

You're setting a double standard for Cads then refusing to admit there is a double standard.

 

The results DO NOT MATTER. You cannot justify the actions with the results. Cads had no idea of her results when she commited those actions. Perhaps if Nial took over the world and combined the might of all armies in the world (leaving the WT for last) , the Seanchan attack would have failed (the joint forces of the WT with all Armies united under one commander). We don't know, because the book wasn't written that way. But just looking at the actions, if you excuse one, you have to excuse the other. If any action is excusable because you think you're working towards the betterment of man, then Nial is excused.

 

 

No. But when we can see from evidence outside her viewpoint that she is right, then it does make it so.

 

Her rudeness to Berlain and Rand in her initial meeting did nothing except further her own ego. She wasn't right. You can see the evidence, but that's because you set a double standard for everything Cads does.

 

The Shadowspawn were wiped out by the Armies of the Night, before Luthair came. So it was the AS he saw fit to enslave that killed the Shadowspawn. What have the Seanchan done for the Light, or against the Shadow? As for their enslaving of female channelers, they see them as being too dangerous to be left uncollared. We have seen the results of women who can channel being left to their own devices. Turns out, they're just people. They don't really have a sound foundation for their beliefs with regards to channelers, because the idea they base their beliefs on is demonstrably false. Cadsuane might think that she always knows best, but if the results bear out the conclusion that she does, then it is less a sign of conceit than it is a reasonable assessment

 

Let's see. They united an entire landmass. They came up with a way to have all people treated equally on a basic level (No Cads going around doing whatever the hell they want too just because they have magic and other's don't). They keep all their people fed, clothed, and such. They have a system for promotion where even the meanest peasent could some day become one of the most important people in the kingdom.

 

Now, we know all their ideals don't look too great in action, however on paper it looks damned good. They think they're working towards the light. Your excuses for Cads means if their heart is in the right place, then it's all ok.

[Suttree]

Let's see. They united an entire landmass. They came up with a way to have all people treated equally on a basic level (No Cads going around doing whatever the hell they want too just because they have magic and other's don't). They keep all their people fed, clothed, and such. They have a system for promotion where even the meanest peasent could some day become one of the most important people in the kingdom.

 

Now, we know all their ideals don't look too great in action, however on paper it looks damned good.

 

All people treated equal? You must be joking. Even if we set aside damane they have a very stratified system. Nobles kill people for looking them in the eye. Seekers kidnap and torture at the merest sign I dissent. The prospect for advancement is so low that families sell future generations into slavery to even have a shot at moving forward. Only the top % of hereditary slaves have any position of respect. The others can be torn from their families and sold like cattle. Further the land mass is not united, that's propaganda put forth by the empire. We know in fact Karede has put down "numerous rebellions" just in his time with the guard. We see seekers talking of "sedition" in various districts. The stability that supposedly comes at the cost of personnel freedom is in actuality a lie. So no things don't look all that good on paper.

 

Actually the scene that you posted wasn't bad. I'd be hard pressed to call that rude.

 

I used the Aleis example as thisguy earlier in the thread used it as an example of her rudeness. It is frequently brought up as one before fans realize it was all a plan to spring Rand. I was taking the scene as a whole of which that quote is the end as evidence for my point.

 

When you spoke of atrocities Niall committed I assumed that you meant his plans for Murandy and Altara - the brigands and Dragonsworn he commanded Carridin to usher as well as what WC sent to Almoth Plain in TGH did. Now, what do you think "raid" is? Because I think that Dulain was crossing border and assaulting, pillaging and killing andorans until he was ignominiously slain. Which is not really different from what WC did, and as Siuan had him doing those things (picked by the Tower to unite Murandy, remember?) well... pot meet kettle. And Niall was definitely trying to provide stability and unity of humanity before large scale invasion of Shadowspawn - we see that in his POV in prologue of TDR.

 

IIRC Siuan did not order him in those raids. she supported him for the throne because he was charismatic and he got himself killed raiding. Further Andor and Murandy has been at that for generations. It's not as it it was some AS plot. As for Nial he thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH. It was a power grab for those lands on the plain that no ruler controlled.

[Vardar]

All people treated equal? You must be joking. Even if we set aside damane they have a very stratified system. Nobles kill people for looking them in the eye. Seekers kidnap and torture at the merest sign I dissent. The prospect for advancement is so low that families sell future generations into slavery to even have a shot at moving forward. Only the top % of hereditary slaves have any position of respect. The others can be torn from their families and sold like cattle. Further the land mass is not united, that's propaganda put forth by the empire. We know in fact Karede has put down "numerous rebellions" just in his time with the guard. We see seekers talking of "sedition" in various districts. The stability that supposedly comes at the cost of personnel freedom is in actuality a lie. So no things don't look all that good on paper.

 

I kinda am. But I was trying to point out that they have done good things. Rebellions doesn't mean the landmass isn;t united. If that was the case, no country in the world, ours or theirs, is united. Rebellions happen, as long as the Empire stands, it's still united (As united as any 2 individuals can be) But the prospect for advancement is there, it's better than nothing.

 

 

I used the Aleis example as thisguy earlier in the thread used it as an example of her rudeness. It is frequently brought up as one before fans realize it was all a plan to spring Rand. I was taking the scene as a whole of which that quote is the end as evidence for my point.

 

I understand, I thought you guys were debating Cads initial meeting with her. That one example isn't rude, however my point still stands. If you excuse Cads, Nial (And others) are excused. But then again, you know how I feel about excusing Cads.

 

I mean, I think your excuse is a valid one, while I don't think it's a good reason, I admit that it is a valid excuse, I just don't get how you don't connect Nial and Cads way of thinking. It's exactly the same.

[pilgram]

Let's see. They united an entire landmass. They came up with a way to have all people treated equally on a basic level (No Cads going around doing whatever the hell they want too just because they have magic and other's don't). They keep all their people fed, clothed, and such. They have a system for promotion where even the meanest peasent could some day become one of the most important people in the kingdom.

 

Now, we know all their ideals don't look too great in action, however on paper it looks damned good.

 

All people treated equal? You must be joking. Even if we set aside damane they have a very stratified system. Nobles kill people for looking them in the eye. Seekers kidnap and torture at the merest sign I dissent. The prospect for advancement is so low that families sell future generations into slavery to even have a shot at moving forward. Only the top % of hereditary slaves have any position of respect. The others can be torn from their families and sold like cattle. Further the land mass is not united, that's propaganda put forth by the empire. We know in fact Karede has put down "numerous rebellions" just in his time with the guard. We see seekers talking of "sedition" in various districts. The stability that supposedly comes at the cost of personnel freedom is in actuality a lie. So no things don't look all that good on paper.

 

Actually the scene that you posted wasn't bad. I'd be hard pressed to call that rude.

 

I used the Aleis example as thisguy earlier in the thread used it as an example of her rudeness. It is frequently brought up as one before fans realize it was all a plan to spring Rand. I was taking the scene as a whole of which that quote is the end as evidence for my point.

 

When you spoke of atrocities Niall committed I assumed that you meant his plans for Murandy and Altara - the brigands and Dragonsworn he commanded Carridin to usher as well as what WC sent to Almoth Plain in TGH did. Now, what do you think "raid" is? Because I think that Dulain was crossing border and assaulting, pillaging and killing andorans until he was ignominiously slain. Which is not really different from what WC did, and as Siuan had him doing those things (picked by the Tower to unite Murandy, remember?) well... pot meet kettle. And Niall was definitely trying to provide stability and unity of humanity before large scale invasion of Shadowspawn - we see that in his POV in prologue of TDR.

 

IIRC Siuan did not order him in those raids. she supported him for the throne because he was charismatic and he got himself killed raiding. Further Andor and Murandy has been at that for generations. It's not as it it was some AS plot. As for Nial he thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH. It was a power grab for those lands on the plain that no ruler controlled.

 

 

Actually, we don’t know that he was charismatic, we only know that he was young, Murandian, noble, picked by Tower and that Bryne thought that he was on Siuans’ string and wondered if he could provide solders. His importance, influence and notability could be best evaluated through this fact: First Prince of the Sword at the time, who by nature of his post ought to be well informed of political and military matters alongside Andors borders at least, neither recognizes his name or knows fact that he is dead.

We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him.

And one question what do you mean by “Nial thought those reports were the ravings of a lunatic in TGH “?

[Suttree]

We haven’t seen her admitting that she outright ordered him to attack Andoran territory, and I don’t think that she necessarily did, or indeed had to – it would be enough to assure him in Tower support and encourage him to take actions that would increase his standing amongst Murandian nobility. What we do know for sure is that she chose to press Morgase not to defend her country instead to press Dulain to stop attacks, which she certainly could – its’ easier to press relatively unknown noble than reigning queen. Besides, I doubt that WT would give its support in such matter to person not willing to give way to their demands. It was certainly AS plot and power grab – to put their favorite on throne and control Murandy through him.

 

AS support many thrones. They supported Morgase for instance, it certainly doesn't mean Siuan was trying to annex the land for the WT as Nial attempted to do in the WC war and on the plain. Support and Nial's actions are two very different things.