Insanity vs. VoG revliation

[Suttree]

Haven't got the book with me but, doesn't Elayne make a comment about veins of gold in WH just after she, avi and min bond Rand?

If so, doesn't that support the idea that rand had this light in his mind before VoG in ToM. Not that I'm sold on Kael's Eye theory

 

 

It was Avi(although Elayne later thinks on them) and she was commenting on being able to feel his love...

"He is the Car'a'carn," Aviendha said, laughing, "as strong as the Three-fold Land itself!" Her face was proud—oh, so proud– but even as she laughed, tears streamed down her sun-dark cheeks. "The veins of gold. Oh, the veins of gold. You do love me, Rand....Yet laced through them, golden veins pulsed and glowed whenever he looked at Min, or Aviendha. Or her. He did love her. He loved all three of them. And that made her want to laugh with joy. Other women might find doubts, but she would always know the truth of his love."

[Kahsm]

We have seen a variety of different symptoms from different male channelers, some rather less severe than Rand's. And given Rand's is supposed to be a degenarative condition - that it to say, he'll get worse - the mere fact of him not being as bad as, say, someone who has already suffered a psychotic break, doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Rand's symptoms are not "mild" compared to what we have been told to expect. Nor are they severe. We have to expect a wide range, and Rand is within that range. Not being insane being a type of insanity is something you would probably have a great deal of difficulty trying to argue. It's something I'd probably struggle with, and I'm much smarter than you. It's highly illogical - the mere fact of something not being something else is evidence against, not for, that something else being the same as the first something.

 

It would be very difficult, that's why I don't understand how you keep trying to do it with Rand, since what you claim to be his symptoms of insanity are always attributable to other things.

 

But, if you cannot conceptualize another form of insanity that is not outwardly apparent, thus wouldn't be thought of as "insane", then you're not as smart as you think you are. Maybe an MC develops an uncanny optimism and respect for human life. It's technically caused by a mental deficiency, but everyone just thinks he's a nice guy. Therefore, an insanity that is not. But I think we'd both agree this wouldn't likely be a form of insanity used in the books as a result of the taint. Well the same applies for what you claim proves Rand is mad. The only reason you think Rand is insane is because you think he SHOULD be insane, so explainable things become, "He's clearly shown to be crazy."

 

Yes, a voice that wants to KILL EVERYONE or commit suicide, or murder a man on first meeting, is incredibly rational. Being unable to tell what's you and what isn't is in no way a sign of something wrong in the old noggin, everything in Rand's brain department is perfectly hunky-dory, thank you very much. Denial. Not just a river in Egypt. The evidence for Rand being a few branches short of a tree is overwhelming to most people - including RJ and BS. That Rand is mad is clear. That he is intended to be seen as mad is clear. Rand held on well enough - he owned his madness, it did not own him - but I think it's pretty clear that if nothing was done to correct matters, he was goingt to take a turn for the worse sooner or later. Which he did, in the Last That Could Be Done. I'd say the end result of that madness was looking like it could be pretty devastating. Or at least, I'd consider levelling cities to be devastating. Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned like that.

 

My bad here, I actually meant Rand's handling of the voice in his head, not the voice itself. LTT was insane, and thus that would be reflected in the memories. Rand, however, handles it quite rationally. The personality split the crazy memories away from Rand's personality, and the fact that Rand could recognize the intrusion is being insane, which you just admitted he does, just further demonstrates how sane Rand was.

 

And here you go with "it's pretty clear that...", "he is intended to be seen..." "...is clear" with ZERO evidence. Zero. No, it's not clear. Not only is it not clear. All there is, is a bunch of close-minded readers who cling to what was spoon fed to you instead of going after what's actually there. When you write stuff like that, I'm sure you'll get what you really want, which is others cheering your complete lack of insight simply because it reinforces their similarly pre-conceived biases.

 

You're trying to tell me the sky is blue, I'm trying to tell you that no it only looks blue because blue light is scattered from the sun's rays because of the chemical composition of the atmosphere. Then you say, "It's clearly blue", and everyone cheers you because they're just as dense. You probably are quite smart, which is why you're so blind to the things you don't actually get, and why you're so quick to shoot them down without actually thinking about it.

 

No. The mere fact of some people going mad despite significantly less contact with the taint that others who remain sane is proof that more taint most definitely does not = more madness.

Uh we don't see how much taint they've picked up. Less channeling does not necessarily mean less contact with the taint. Some could be more prone to picking up taint in their brain despite channeling less. Just as how some people are more prone to illness than others despite touching the same bathroom door handles. It would actually explain quite nicely why people go insane at different rates even given the similar amounts of channeling. What we actually know is that Rand has a lot more of the stuff in his head than anyone else we've seen so far, but barely registers on the insane-o-metre if at all, and what might register has other possible contributors which could make the taint's portion of the cause even less.

 

Given your predilection for simple concepts, I cannot fathom how you can't imagine that a lot of actual taint on the brain should mean they're highly likely to be on the high end of insanity, even if you don't believe it's linear. You'd think at some point, given enough taint, it's going to show in a demonstrable way. We've seen obviously insane MCs who get healed, then we're shown Rand, who couldn't be healed, but wasn't totally off his rocker before VoG. But you don't think that wasn't a possible hint that something's screwy in what we've been spoof fed so far? Come on Ares...

 

Off topic for everyone else: And for such a smart guy I still can't fathom how you can't understand Occam's Razor. Again, it is not a substitute for logic and reason. If you honestly believe I'm flat out wrong, then Occam's cannot apply. It _ONLY_ applies when two theories are EQUALLY plausible. I cannot think of another way to put that. If one theory is more right than another, even by the SMALLEST of margins, the simple one does not get any extra points. It would make no sense to throw out ideas before you test them just because they're not as simple... So until you admit that my theory is equally plausible, Occam's means nothing, just reinforces your odd requirement for simplicity in a fantasy book.

 

If you were to argue that aliens could not be responsible for giving man the technology to build the pyramids, you can't also use Occam's as another argument, because by evoking Occam you're actually legitimizing the Alien argument that you just tried to disprove -- the two are not compatible. Doing so just shows a lack of understanding as to how Occam's is supposed to be used, as if you saw some basic one liner like, "the simple answer is more likely true" and thought that was all there was to it. Which would make no sense if the simple answer had logical arguments against it's likeliness and the more complex one did not.

 

And even if you did ONLY invoke Occam's you haven't definitively proven that the complex answer isn't true, you've just stated the simple one is more LIKELY true. So if there is any actual evidence or logical proofs for your argument, you should discuss those first. And that is why, again, only when the two hypothesis equally explain the result do you invoke Occam's in order to break the tie.

[Suttree]

Less channeling does not necessarily mean less contact with the taint.

 

How so? They actively come in contact with it while channeling.

 

No, it's not clear. Not only is it not clear. All there is, is a bunch of close-minded readers who cling to what was spoon fed to you instead of going after what's actually there.

 

Yes all of us close minded readers involved online here, at Theoryland, Wotmania, Rafo etc. Everyone has it wrong but you are correct. None of us have seen what is actually there, how dense of us all. Guess you want to send a memo to RJ because he got it wrong apparently as well.

[Mr Ares]

We have seen a variety of different symptoms from different male channelers, some rather less severe than Rand's. And given Rand's is supposed to be a degenarative condition - that it to say, he'll get worse - the mere fact of him not being as bad as, say, someone who has already suffered a psychotic break, doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. Rand's symptoms are not "mild" compared to what we have been told to expect. Nor are they severe. We have to expect a wide range, and Rand is within that range. Not being insane being a type of insanity is something you would probably have a great deal of difficulty trying to argue. It's something I'd probably struggle with, and I'm much smarter than you. It's highly illogical - the mere fact of something not being something else is evidence against, not for, that something else being the same as the first something.

 

It would be very difficult, that's why I don't understand how you keep trying to do it with Rand, since what you claim to be his symptoms of insanity are always attributable to other things.

Except they're not. The voice in his head. Saying it's a coping method changes nothing. He is coping with memories in his head by having a voice in his head - a functional insanity. He has syptoms of stress. Yes, but they are still symptomatic of his insanity, which is caused in part by stress. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalalalalalala he's not insane doesn't impress me. That's all you have. You have no counter-evidence. It's not insanity, it's stress says nothing when the point people make is that his insanity is partially caused by stress.

 

But, if you cannot conceptualize another form of insanity that is not outwardly apparent, thus wouldn't be thought of as "insane", then you're not as smart as you think you are. Maybe an MC develops an uncanny optimism and respect for human life. It's technically caused by a mental deficiency, but everyone just thinks he's a nice guy. Therefore, an insanity that is not. But I think we'd both agree this wouldn't likely be a form of insanity used in the books as a result of the taint. Well the same applies for what you claim proves Rand is mad. The only reason you think Rand is insane is because you think he SHOULD be insane, so explainable things become, "He's clearly shown to be crazy."

Uncanny optimism and respect for human life doesn't particularly sound like insanity. An insanity that is not, as you say. It is not an insanity. The taint can cause any conceivable form of insanity. Can optimism be defined as a form of insanity? If no, then it cannot be caused by the taint. If yes, then it can be. Presumably, it would have be excessive before being considered insane - to the extent that it was quite noticeable. What you propose is something with no symptoms. Pretty hard to call there being absolutely nothing wrong with your brain a form of insanity.

 

Yes, a voice that wants to KILL EVERYONE or commit suicide, or murder a man on first meeting, is incredibly rational. Being unable to tell what's you and what isn't is in no way a sign of something wrong in the old noggin, everything in Rand's brain department is perfectly hunky-dory, thank you very much. Denial. Not just a river in Egypt. The evidence for Rand being a few branches short of a tree is overwhelming to most people - including RJ and BS. That Rand is mad is clear. That he is intended to be seen as mad is clear. Rand held on well enough - he owned his madness, it did not own him - but I think it's pretty clear that if nothing was done to correct matters, he was goingt to take a turn for the worse sooner or later. Which he did, in the Last That Could Be Done. I'd say the end result of that madness was looking like it could be pretty devastating. Or at least, I'd consider levelling cities to be devastating. Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned like that.

 

My bad here, I actually meant Rand's handling of the voice in his head, not the voice itself. LTT was insane, and thus that would be reflected in the memories. Rand, however, handles it quite rationally. The personality split the crazy memories away from Rand's personality, and the fact that Rand could recognize the intrusion is being insane, which you just admitted he does, just further demonstrates how sane Rand was.

How functionally insane he was. Someone with Rand's symptoms in reality wouldn't necessarily be locked up, because they ae quite capable of functioning. But the mere fact of having a voice in his head is evidence of him not being quite sane. Unless you can show that having another man's voice in your head is considered sane, then you have to accept Rand is insane. If you accpet Rand is insane, I rest my case. Well, you could try to argue he's not as insane as he should be, but I need only point out that we have no basis for determining how sane or otherwise he should be, and therefore you have no leg to stand on. If we have no basis for determining how sane or otherwise he should be, you cannot say he is more sane than he should be, and therefore there is no evidence of taint protection.

 

And here you go with "it's pretty clear that...", "he is intended to be seen..." "...is clear" with ZERO evidence. Zero. No, it's not clear.

Actually, it is. To everyone but you. Now, you can call everyone else close minded till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't make you right. Being one in a crowd doesn't make me wrong, nor does it make me right. Being alone doesn't make you wrong, nor does it make you right. But if everyone is convinced the truth is one thing and you think it's another, do you really think that calling everyone else sheep is a good way to convince ayone of anything? You could be a lone visionary, the only one with the strength of mind, the strength of character, no see clearly what is right and to argue for the truth! But a lot of the time, the person on their own is just a crackpot. And when you are convinced that the truth is not what the author claims the truth is, you look more and more like a crackpot and less and less like the soul voice of truth. Where is your evidence? Your RJ and BS quotes? On what basis do you determine how sane Rand should be? How can hearing voices be considered sane? Alas, you cannot answer. We have no evidence to suggest that Rand is protected from the taint throughout the series. We know that the taint is a catalyst for madness. We see Rand diplaying distinct signs of madness. So what is the obvious conclusion? That Rand is mad. It fits all the evidence. But the voice in his head isn't madness, it's just his way of coping with the memories! Fine. Because it is in no way possible to cope with things by going mad. Mat has the memories of other men in his head. He didn't develop voices. So hearing voices is not the only possible way of dealing with memories, it is just Rand's way. But that doesn't make him sane. The argument is that he was functionally insane. Yes, there was a distinct problem with him, but he was still capable of going about his day to day life.

 

You're trying to tell me the sky is blue, I'm trying to tell you that no it only looks blue because blue light is scattered from the sun's rays because of the chemical composition of the atmosphere. Then you say, "It's clearly blue", and everyone cheers you because they're just as dense. You probably are quite smart, which is why you're so blind to the things you don't actually get, and why you're so quick to shoot them down without actually thinking about it.

Alternatively, I did think about it, and I disagree with you. Are you so closed minded that you cannot accept that people might have a different viewpoint to your own which is backed up by a weight of evidence? There are many thiings in life which I struggle to get. And I know that I struggle to get them because I've been slapped in the face by them all my life. Consider this: if I disagree with you, it might mean that I am right and that you are wrong, or it might mean that you are right, but are failing to convince me. Given that people have changed my mind via argument in the past, it is therefore worth considering why you are failing. Clearly it is not impossible (though I accept that it might be very difficult). Why can you not convince me, then? Blue light being scattered from the suns rays means that the sky is blue. Blueness is not an inherent property of the sky, perhaps. Under different light, or from a different place, it might look very different. But you are not giving a reason why it isn't blue, merely an explanation for why it is. If I had a red lightbulb in my bedroom, my room would be red under the light (and would also give people the impression that my house is a brothel). Without the light, it isn't red but with it is. That said, i'm British and it's winter so the chances are on a given day the sky will not be blue but grey (it's not grey, it's just cloudy and overcast...). Likewise here, you base an argument for why Rand isn't mad on an explanation for why he is. "He's not mad, his voice is caused by stress." "Stress helped cause him to go mad, and start hearing a voice."

 

No. The mere fact of some people going mad despite significantly less contact with the taint that others who remain sane is proof that more taint most definitely does not = more madness.

Uh we don't see how much taint they've picked up. Less channeling does not necessarily mean less contact with the taint.

Well, actually it sort of does.

Some could be more prone to picking up taint in their brain despite channeling less. Just as how some people are more prone to illness than others despite touching the same bathroom door handles. It would actually explain quite nicely why people go insane at different rates even given the similar amounts of channeling.

Perhaps. But as the taint isn't the only thing that causes insanity, perhaps we should look at why non-tainted people go mad, and why some will go mad under a set of conditions that doesn't induce insanity in another?

 

Given your predilection for simple concepts, I cannot fathom how you can't imagine that a lot of actual taint on the brain should mean they're highly likely to be on the high end of insanity, even if you don't believe it's linear. You'd think at some point, given enough taint, it's going to show in a demonstrable way. We've seen obviously insane MCs who get healed, then we're shown Rand, who couldn't be healed, but wasn't totally off his rocker before VoG. But you don't think that wasn't a possible hint that something's screwy in what we've been spoof fed so far? Come on Ares...

I think that it did show in a demonstrable way. A lot of people in series saw it, thinking him mad. The author saw it, and thought him mad. The readers saw it, and thought him mad. You didn't see it. I'm sure you think there is nothing that could be considered "off your rocker" about trying to murder your father, but a lot of people disagree. Perhaps they just had better relationships with their parents than you. Maybe you would have alimb severed and just not care, but most people would be at least a little put out by such a thing. They would cope, but they would still care.

 

Off topic for everyone else: And for such a smart guy I still can't fathom how you can't understand Occam's Razor.

I do understand it, you merely misunderstand what I am saying. Even if we accept our theories as equals, yours still requires more unnecessary assumptions, and is therefore less likely. Consider that the flaw might be in you, not in me. You fail to read. You fail to understand. You twist the evidence. You are the one being closed minded and refusing to listen. I understand the concept of Occam's Razor just fine, you fail to grasp the point I am making.

So until you admit that my theory is equally plausible, Occam's means nothing, just reinforces your odd requirement for simplicity in a fantasy book.

Ordinarily, I might be prepared to give one the benfit of the doubt in terms of communication - maybe I'm just not doing a very good job of saying what I want. It happens quite often. But I don't know where you get the idea that I desire simplicity in fantasy books. No, I simply desire simplicity in theories. If something can explain all the evidence quite clearly and with not much by way of extraneous assumptions, it's a rather better theory than a load of rubbish that expects us to ignore what the authors say, invents any number of new concepts with no basis in what has been written, ignores evidence and fails to explain anything in a clear way. Rand is mad. You have admitted as much. The taint causes madness, and Rand has been exposed to the taint. So the taint is, in whole or in part, responsible for Rand's madness. Reasonable. On the other hand, Rand is mad, but I think he should be madder, and is it really madness, because I think it's just stress, well, he does have a voice in his head, but it's a sane voice, no, he deals with it sanely, but having it anyway is madness, except when it isn't, so he must be protected, otherwise he's be saner, according my unsupported guesswork on how sane he should be. Not so reasonable.

[damandred]

Haven't got the book with me but, doesn't Elayne make a comment about veins of gold in WH just after she, avi and min bond Rand?

If so, doesn't that support the idea that rand had this light in his mind before VoG in ToM. Not that I'm sold on Kael's Eye theory

 

 

It was Avi(although Elayne later thinks on them) and she was commenting on being able to feel his love...

"He is the Car'a'carn," Aviendha said, laughing, "as strong as the Three-fold Land itself!" Her face was proud—oh, so proud– but even as she laughed, tears streamed down her sun-dark cheeks. "The veins of gold. Oh, the veins of gold. You do love me, Rand....Yet laced through them, golden veins pulsed and glowed whenever he looked at Min, or Aviendha. Or her. He did love her. He loved all three of them. And that made her want to laugh with joy. Other women might find doubts, but she would always know the truth of his love."

 

Thanks Suttree.

But couldn't this be another case of Chekhov's Gun? It seems to much a coincidence for it not to be.

Maybe the light in Rands brain is his love for mankind and his desire to protect it from the DO? Just a thought.

[Thrasymachus]

The question of Rand's sanity or lack thereof is even more difficult than Mr Ares points out. I, for one, think Rand is still bonkers, even after VoG and his reintegration. He's not the kind of crazy he was before, with two personalities living in his skull, pervasive paranoia, depression and mania. Now, he's the smae kind of crazy as Jesus, Siddhārtha Gautama, Mohammad, and the like. An altogether more admirable kind of crazy, but crazy nonetheless.

 

And I still think it's a bit silly to not accept Rand's proficiency in both swordsmanship and his early channeling as an early, subconscious influence of LTT. Rand didn't just go from being completely inexperienced to a "pretty good swordsman" in the course of a couple of years, he became the second best swordsman in the world. Yes, his rapid advance in skills can be explained by the same sort of Mary-Sueism that explains the girls and their proficiencies in channeling. But in general, if an event or set of events that are required to advance the plot and are extraordinary enough to require explanation can be explained by things already present in the story, then I prefer that explanation to a meta-plot explanation. In Nyneve's case, if you think her extraordinary proficiency in Healing, including doing two things that had never been done before; Healing Stilling and Healing madness, that this requires explanation, then "It's the Old Blood from the Two Rivers" is a better explanation than, "Nyneve's a Mary-Sue." "Nyneve is the re-incarnation of Eldrene" might even be a better explanation, especially if we find that Eldrene was a Yellow and was especially proficient and inventive with Healing. But it would be such an extraordinary explanation that it would require additional corroboration, on top of being able to explain Nyneve's ability with Healing.

[damandred]

Rand had Lan as a teacher, plus circumstance put him in battle situations, were it was a case of get good or die. Not to mention his natural ability. Rand was LTT, just LTT without his training. He still had his inborn talent.

[Mr Ares]

And I still think it's a bit silly to not accept Rand's proficiency in both swordsmanship and his early channeling as an early, subconscious influence of LTT. Rand didn't just go from being completely inexperienced to a "pretty good swordsman" in the course of a couple of years, he became the second best swordsman in the world. Yes, his rapid advance in skills can be explained by the same sort of Mary-Sueism that explains the girls and their proficiencies in channeling. But in general, if an event or set of events that are required to advance the plot and are extraordinary enough to require explanation can be explained by things already present in the story, then I prefer that explanation to a meta-plot explanation. In Nyneve's case, if you think her extraordinary proficiency in Healing, including doing two things that had never been done before; Healing Stilling and Healing madness, that this requires explanation, then "It's the Old Blood from the Two Rivers" is a better explanation than, "Nyneve's a Mary-Sue." "Nyneve is the re-incarnation of Eldrene" might even be a better explanation, especially if we find that Eldrene was a Yellow and was especially proficient and inventive with Healing. But it would be such an extraordinary explanation that it would require additional corroboration, on top of being able to explain Nyneve's ability with Healing.

But my point is that any explanation of Rand's abilities as being from LTT is inadequate, as it doesn't explain similar things for other people. Everyone learnt stuff very quickly. Only Rand has another man's memories in his head as a possible explanation. So either you say here's the explanation for Rand, the girls are just Sues (I dislike that term - it gets thrown around far too liberally sometimes that it's virtually lost all meaning), or you try and come up with an explanation for everyone. Even if that explanation is they're all Sues. Also, look at Perrin in ToM, training refugees as soldiers. He finds more people pick up skill smuch faster than would normally be the case. So rapid learning all round can be explained in terms of ta'veren - if you accept that it is possible (very, very unlikely, but still possible) to get that good that quick, for a man with a natural aptitude, in good physical condition, with the best in the world as a teacher and intense training, then Rand's sword skills can be explained. As can everyone else who got very good very quickly (save Mat, who has his memories as an explanation). I'm no fan of ascribing everything to ta'veren, but I think it's an explanation that covers more bases than just subconcious memories from LTT making Rand good but there being nothing for anyone else. Old Blood doesn't explain Nynaeve being a good Healer right off the bat. Her immense skill in Healing (second best in the WT), and her desire to Heal (as opposed to compulsion being the most common wilder trick as people want stuff) explains how she was a good Healer from day one. More training and more experience, coupled with a lack of indoctrination in the WT's way of doing things, helps get her from where she started the series to where she is now.

[Dream]

We know the Dark One is outside the Pattern....

None of this compels me to think that the Wheel is incapable of action and intent. Nor would I consider the Dark One's acts part of the Pattern. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

As for the part that you've bolded, what part do you need explained? That some events that occur in Randland must occur and could not have occurred otherwise (Min's viewings, certain prophecies, the release and subsequent re-imprisonment of the Dark One)? Or that some events that occur in our world must occur, and cannot occur otherwise (the sun will rise tomorrow in the East, everybody reading this will one day die, the distribution of wealth in a free market economy will always follow a power-curve, heat flows from greater density to lesser density, etc.)?

Oh, is that it? It seemed as if you were saying some real world human actions and interactions were predetermined.

 

 

 

I have always assumed that the Dark One does taint the male half of the Source at every turning. It does not necessarily mean that he's not capable of change. Maybe he knows that it's the only way he could win, and so he does it every time, each time hoping to get all the elements in place to lead to his victory. It just hasn't worked yet.

 

There's also the fact that if the Dark One is outside the Pattern, does it mean that he's outside of time? That time does not flow for him the same way it does for everybody else? Because in that case, maybe it doesn't have the same meaning that he does something at every turning. I don't really understand it, actually! :)

That may very well be the case. I just like to think that at some point the Dark One would try something different. (Think outside the box, buddy!) And let's not get into how things work outside of time. Circular time that doesn't repeat itself is bad enough.

 

 

 

There is no evidence to suggest insanity is required for past life memories.

No, but the evidence does suggest that Rand's memories are a symptom of a form of madness. Therefore there is ample basis to say that Rand's pat life memories require insanity.

This is where we disagree. It has not been determined whether Rand's memories are a symptom of his madness or whether Rand's memories are the cause of his madness.

 

 

If the Wheel didn't want Rand to have his memories then why does the Wheel want him dead if he didn't have them.

Not the point I made. Whether the Wheel wants them or not does not mean that the Wheel acted.

It's a point I'm making. If the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, it is reasonable to assume that the Wheel would act towards its goals rather than sit back and hope for the best. Afterall, Rand is its champion.

 

 

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

It's not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

But the Wheel using the Taint to give Rand memories implies the Dark One always taints it in every turning of the Wheel. Which either implies the Dark One is incapable of change or under the influence of the Wheel. I'm not too fond of either ideas.

It implies no such thing. Not unless you operate under the assumption that Rand must always have memories, which there is no reason to believe.

That is an assumption that I am making. The reason is having LTT's memories is critical for this turning of the Wheel to the point that Rand must die if he does not have them. If it isn't the case that Rand needs the memeories every turning of the Wheel, what makes this turning so special?

[Suttree]

If it isn't the case that Rand needs the memeories every turning of the Wheel, what makes this turning so special?

 

Nothing makes this turning special. We know that for fact...

 

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

Also Dream you make a great deal of assumptions, but have not done much of a job as to showing why they would be valid.

[Thrasymachus]

Some real world human actions and interactions may well be predetermined. In fact, there's been centuries-long debates in the real world about whether the universe, and everything in it including us, is entirely predetermined or if there's any room for freedom, and if there is, how freedom could be understood. I'm not going to take a position on which stance is correct for the real world, but for Randland, it seems a compromise position is best: some events are entirely or largely predetermined, other events are not, they could happen any which way. The problem with human action and interaction is that there are almost always so many variables and causes behind people's actions, that it's impossible to tell whether what they do could have been otherwise or not.

 

And Rand's abilities coming from LTT is a perfectly adequate explanation of Rand's abilities. No one ever said that this explanation must be generalizable to everyone else's astounding abilities and learning. We haven't even necessarily established that everyone else's abilities are really all that extraordinary or require an explanation we are not supplied with. Perrin doesn't himself acquire any special abilities not directly attributable to being a wolf-brother. He doesn't become the best berzerker battle-axe wielder in the world; Aram nearly kills him quite easily, nor is he really all that effective a leader, even after he accepts leadership as his responsibility so there's nothing to explain. Mat's proficiency in battle is directly attributable to his Finn memories. Egwene's skill in channeling can be attributed to a rare Talent in Earth, forcing by the Seanchan, and her training with the Aiel, which also helped her more effectively interrogate Moggy and taught her invaluable statesmanship skills. Nyneve is the only one who's abilities seem to really require extraordinary explanation aside from Rands, and as you pointed out in your post, you can argue that they don't really require extraordinary explanation.

 

And you can argue the same thing with Rand, but in my mind, Rand's abilities stretch credibility a bit more than Nyneve's does, and I think Nyn's abilities do stretch credibility with three major world-chaning discoveries or innovations in the course of a year. I can live with the relative incredibility of Nyneve's discoveries and abilities, they're not so much to break immersion. But Rand becoming the the second-best swordsman in the world? With less than a year of directed training with the best swordsman, who spent his whole 50-some year life becoming the best, and a bit more than a year of self-directed training after that? I can buy that someone with an innate talent and dedication to the craft could become a Blademaster in the course of a couple of years of training. But to become effectively the best in the world? Sorry, that's too much, for me, without something else in the mix. But at the end of the day, this is a more personal preference than anything else. The levels of evidence required to persuade a person of something have more to do with that person than with the thing itself or the evidence.

[Dream]

If it isn't the case that Rand needs the memeories every turning of the Wheel, what makes this turning so special?

 

Nothing makes this turning special. We know that for fact...

 

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Despite that this would support my argument that the Wheel always wants Rand to have the memories, I think you are taking RJ's answer out of context. The question posed was if something special made this turning the final time. The answer was no. I interpret this as: there is nothing outwardly special about this Age to make it the final time.

 

Also Dream you make a great deal of assumptions, but have not done much of a job as to showing why they would be valid.

If I could show why they would be valid, they wouldn't be assumptions. All I can provide are rationales for why I make them. If you care to list which ones bother you the most, I can perhaps defend myself.

 

 

 

Some real world human actions and interactions may well be predetermined. In fact, there's been centuries-long debates in the real world about whether the universe, and everything in it including us, is entirely predetermined or if there's any room for freedom, and if there is, how freedom could be understood. I'm not going to take a position on which stance is correct for the real world, but for Randland, it seems a compromise position is best: some events are entirely or largely predetermined, other events are not, they could happen any which way. The problem with human action and interaction is that there are almost always so many variables and causes behind people's actions, that it's impossible to tell whether what they do could have been otherwise or not.

I don't want to stray any further off-topic so I'll just say that I'm in the real-world-is-not-predetermined camp and leave it at that.

[Suttree]

If I could show why they would be valid, they wouldn't be assumptions. All I can provide are rationales for why I make them. If you care to list which ones bother you the most, I can perhaps defend myself.

 

Assumptions can be valid or not, none of it bothers me it just hasn't been particularly persuasive.

[Randommer]

This is irrelevant, but just as an aside I've seen people calling LTT's voice a personality (and I think RJ did himself once), when technically it's not. If Rand walked into a real world clinic, he would not be diagnosed as having disassociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder (same thing). A second 'personality' is a totally different kettle of fish. Sorry; I'm a nerd when it comes to terminology.

[Kahsm]

This is irrelevant, but just as an aside I've seen people calling LTT's voice a personality (and I think RJ did himself once), when technically it's not. If Rand walked into a real world clinic, he would not be diagnosed as having disassociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder (same thing). A second 'personality' is a totally different kettle of fish. Sorry; I'm a nerd when it comes to terminology.

 

Well, if the author calls it a personality, and he did, then apparently in Randland it would be "diagnosed" (delved?!) as such. Good enough for me. I think it's an important distinction from just "voice" and/or "memories" even if it's not a full disassociative identity as we would clinically define them today. It's similar as to how I don't think they'd have any diagnosis for manic depression as a mental disorder in Randland -- you'd simply be moody.

[Mr Ares]

If the Wheel didn't want Rand to have his memories then why does the Wheel want him dead if he didn't have them.

Not the point I made. Whether the Wheel wants them or not does not mean that the Wheel acted.

It's a point I'm making. If the Wheel wants Rand to have the memories, it is reasonable to assume that the Wheel would act towards its goals rather than sit back and hope for the best. Afterall, Rand is its champion.

It could be that Rand would have memories anyway, therefore there is no need for the Wheel to act. Alternatively, it could be that if Rand did not gain memories, the Wheel would then act. The fact that he did get them negates the need for the Wheel to act. The Wheel wants him to have memories, and he has memories, but correlation does not equal causation.

 

 

I would like to point out that the memories being willed by the Wheel, and them being taint-induced, are not mutually exclusive. The Wheel weaves everything into the pattern, good and bad. It may very well be that the taint was the means the Wheel used to ensure that Rand would have the memories he needed to succeed in his task.

 

I know this somewhat contradicts what I said before, but I am allowed to question myself :)

It's not mutually exclusive, I agree.

 

But the Wheel using the Taint to give Rand memories implies the Dark One always taints it in every turning of the Wheel. Which either implies the Dark One is incapable of change or under the influence of the Wheel. I'm not too fond of either ideas.

It implies no such thing. Not unless you operate under the assumption that Rand must always have memories, which there is no reason to believe.

That is an assumption that I am making. The reason is having LTT's memories is critical for this turning of the Wheel to the point that Rand must die if he does not have them. If it isn't the case that Rand needs the memeories every turning of the Wheel, what makes this turning so special?

The reality of the Wheel is that time does not repeat exactly, only general trends. As a specific detail, Rand having memories might be useful this time, but by the mere fact of things being a little different each time, only the same in the broad sweep and at a distance, this is the sort of detail that could easily be different from one turning to the next. Thus I don't feel the assumption is truly warranted.

 

 

And Rand's abilities coming from LTT is a perfectly adequate explanation of Rand's abilities.

I disagree. He gets very good very quickly, and does so before there is any evidence of LTT acting even subconciously. As an explanatin, it is thus rather lacking in a certain something - what I like to call evidence. So a rather lacking explanation for Rand's abilities that also leaves the abilities of others unexplained? Not exactly the best theory I've ever come across.

Perrin doesn't himself acquire any special abilities not directly attributable to being a wolf-brother. He doesn't become the best berzerker battle-axe wielder in the world; Aram nearly kills him quite easily, nor is he really all that effective a leader, even after he accepts leadership as his responsibility so there's nothing to explain.

As both a leader and a fighter, Perrin is as good as he needs to be. his position does not require him to be the best in the world, therefore there is no reason why he should be forced to become such.

Egwene's skill in channeling can be attributed to a rare Talent in Earth, forcing by the Seanchan, and her training with the Aiel, which also helped her more effectively interrogate Moggy and taught her invaluable statesmanship skills.

She still became an extraordinarily good politician in a very short space of time. Her time with the Seanchan doesn't explain that, nor does her training with the Aiel, nor interrogating Moggy. Her time with Siuan does, but we still have the issue of her getting to be the very best in very little time. Much like Rand becoming the best in very little time. So Rand gets very good, very fast, it must be LTT! Egwene gets very good, very fast, no explanation necessary, it's perfectly reasonable. Rand's intense training isn't enough to explain his being the best at something, but Egwene's intense training is.

[Dream]

It could be that Rand would have memories anyway, therefore there is no need for the Wheel to act. Alternatively, it could be that if Rand did not gain memories, the Wheel would then act. The fact that he did get them negates the need for the Wheel to act. The Wheel wants him to have memories, and he has memories, but correlation does not equal causation.

True, it's not undeniable proof that the Wheel acted. But it is suggestive. As I see it, there are three viable causes of the memories.

1. Wheel's influence.

2. Lucky coincidence.

3. DO's influence.

Knowing that the Wheel needs Rand to have the memories doesn't disprove 2 or 3, but it does support 1.

[Thrasymachus]

Egwene is not the best politician in the world, though. And her time with the Aiel certainly is adequate to explain her political leadership skills in leading the Aes Sedai after becoming Amryllin; she says so herself. This, combined with her tutelage under Suian is more than enough to explain her competence in politics. You agree with me that Perrin's abilities aren't impressive enough to require explanation. Your complaint that the LTT influence theory for Rand's meteoric rise in abilities lacks evidence because we don't learn about LTT's influence on Rand until the memories become explicit just doesn't fly. We may not have evidence for any explanation of Rand's abilities when he begins to manifest those abilities, but we do get evidence very soon thereafter, in the form of LTT's memories and personality manifesting in Rand. The explanation doesn't have to precede the event in order for it to be an explanation.

 

None of the other main characters display extraordinary abilities that require explanation where that explanation is not given, save arguably Nyneve. And again, all of this is arguable. If you don't think Rand's abilities are so amazing as to require explanation, that's fine. I disagree, because I don't think it's plausible that anyone, no matter how talented and how intense their training is, could become the second-best swordsman in the world in the span of two years when they start with knowing nothing, in a world where swordfighting is a major profession all on its own. Such extraordinary growth in skill requires extraordinary explanation, comparable to how Mat's extraordinary ability as a military strategist requires an extraordinary explanation in his being granted the Finn memories. If Mat just hung around with Agelmar and other military strategists for a bit, and then becomes able to almost instantly form and evaluate a complex battle-plan, as well as adjust his tactics on the fly when battle conditions change, effectively becoming the best general in the world, that would be pretty implausible, and it wouldn't become any more plausible to explain it by saying he had a natural talent at it. There's just too much to learn and too much to practice to be able to know enough to be that good in such a short space of time.

[Kahsm]

Becoming a blademaster from possibly never having seen a real sword before, within a year, is a quite a bit different than just being smart enough to be a good politician, particularly with a resource like Siuan.

[Sharaman]

Interesting concept.

The only way Rand can develop the skills he needs in the short time available is via complete and integrated access to LTT's memories as well as his own.

This includes muscle memory - ie, blademaster ability, as well as channeling memory, battle strategy , political skills, etc.

The only way Rand can have access to LTT's memory is by going mad. Apparently Graendal and Semirhage are clear on this point, and so is Cadsuane.

However Cadsuane doesn't necessarily know what she's talking about and G & S may not be telling the truth.

Still, assume for the sake of argument that Rand must go mad to access LTT's memory.

There is some means of protection that combats or controls the madness - Nynaeve sees it when she Delves him. That protection arises only in some mystic manner when he stands on Dragonmount and contemplates suicide.

If he doesn't somehow manage to access that protective mechanism, he will be actively dangerous to the Light and the Light will be better of eliminating him.

Hence the old prophesy the Borderlanders test.

[Thrasymachus]

Actually, we don't know that the shiny silvery stuff in Rand's head apparently protecting him from taint-madness was gained at Dragonmount. It could have been something, like Kael has mentioned, that he gained earlier on and just developed right alongside the taint. As the taint progressed, so too did the shiny-silvery stuff, and when the taint reached the point where it would have driven Rand world-endingly crazy, the shiny silvery stuff reached the point where it could reintegrate him, an event which occurred on Dragonmount, but which may have been building up to for a while. It's a possibility because Nyneve was only just able to detect the taint on male channeler's minds, but we know that was already there, before she could detect it. I'm not necessarily advocating this view, but it is a possibility. He could have gotten it at the Eye of the World, through grabbing/using Callandor, or walking through the Rings in Rhuidean. If this is true, I rather like Callandor as the source for the shiny silvery stuff more than the Eye, because we know that, in spite of it being created during the Breaking, after men had already been tainted, it magnifies the effects of the taint and it lacks a buffer to prevent overchanneling unless in a circle with two women. Perhaps these are side-effects of the taint protection it ultimately bestows? In any event, any of these things, the Eye, Callandor, the Rings, or the revelation on Dragonmount could be the source of the shiny silvery stuff, or even something that nobody has yet mentioned like sitting under Avendesora. We just don't have enough evidence yet to decide.

[Randommer]

This is irrelevant, but just as an aside I've seen people calling LTT's voice a personality (and I think RJ did himself once), when technically it's not. If Rand walked into a real world clinic, he would not be diagnosed as having disassociative identity disorder/multiple personality disorder (same thing). A second 'personality' is a totally different kettle of fish. Sorry; I'm a nerd when it comes to terminology.

 

Well, if the author calls it a personality, and he did, then apparently in Randland it would be "diagnosed" (delved?!) as such. Good enough for me. I think it's an important distinction from just "voice" and/or "memories" even if it's not a full disassociative identity as we would clinically define them today. It's similar as to how I don't think they'd have any diagnosis for manic depression as a mental disorder in Randland -- you'd simply be moody.

No I agree; there's just so much misunderstanding of MPD generally that I couldn't help but mention. As another aside however, I'm going to mention that what LTT would be diagnosed as (given that the memories are real yada yada) is a mood-congruent auditory hallucination - a psychotic symptom of severe depression. Which, imo, is always what RJ intended Rand's 'madness' to be.

 

But anyway, I should probably leave this discussion now, as trying to super-impose clinical psychology on a fantasy novel is probably not a productive use of time

[Mr Ares]

Egwene is not the best politician in the world, though. And her time with the Aiel certainly is adequate to explain her political leadership skills in leading the Aes Sedai after becoming Amryllin; she says so herself. This, combined with her tutelage under Suian is more than enough to explain her competence in politics. You agree with me that Perrin's abilities aren't impressive enough to require explanation. Your complaint that the LTT influence theory for Rand's meteoric rise in abilities lacks evidence because we don't learn about LTT's influence on Rand until the memories become explicit just doesn't fly. We may not have evidence for any explanation of Rand's abilities when he begins to manifest those abilities, but we do get evidence very soon thereafter, in the form of LTT's memories and personality manifesting in Rand. The explanation doesn't have to precede the event in order for it to be an explanation.

What does Egwene's time with the Aiel explain about her political skills? It explains how she can cope with the pain, but what else? And her tutelage with Siuan wasn't a very long time (nor was her time with the Aiel), and we still have someone going from no experience to mastery. Same as Rand. Yet she is regarded as the best possible candidate for Amyrlin? Better than Siuan? Of course, this is in no way implausible. As for the presence of LTT before his memories and personality began manifesting in TSR, where is the evidence? What suggests he was there? As it is, the explanation of Rand's sword skills being down to LTT's subconcious influence amounts to "must've been him, mustn't it." There's nothing to suggest he was there. It's an explanation based on nothing more than an inability to think of a better explanation - that is not enough to make your explanation right. Rand killed a Blademaster before he had any memories. So how do memories account for Rand being good before he had them? They don't. It explains nothing. If LTT was there, it might be a possible explanation. Give a reason to suspect LTT is there.

 

Such extraordinary growth in skill requires extraordinary explanation

Which is why I gave one - based on something that we know to be true (Rand's being ta'veren), as opposed to one based on something we have no reason at all to suspect has any basis in fact (LTT).

[damandred]

Its entirely reasonable to believe Rands exceptionally fast mastery of the sword is due his being Ta'veren.

After all in are own world we see genius, kids and young men and women who are gifted, who can play instruments, do maths, play sports better than people who have devoted their lives to whatever subject.

 

Maybe matt Damaim was Ta'veren in good will hunting?

 

Had a thought don't know whether its been discussed, but..

Could the light in Rands head be in some way connected to the colours that link Rand, Mat and Perrin?

Might it not also be in Mat and Perrins minds?

[Eht Slat Meit]

Its entirely reasonable to believe Rands exceptionally fast mastery of the sword is due his being Ta'veren.

After all in are own world we see genius, kids and young men and women who are gifted, who can play instruments, do maths, play sports better than people who have devoted their lives to whatever subject.

 

Learning and mastery of a weapon is a matter of skill and practice, not chance. Granted, there are some elements that help contribute to natural skills, like the fact that Rand had the world's premiere blademaster as his personal trainer, but less chance-based things also contribute to his skill.

 

Like the memories from his former life as LTT. He is, after all, one of the men who reinvented the art of fighting with blades in a world where such forms had been forgotten. In some ways, it could be said that the basic blade forms probably came from himself, Sammael, and other progenitors of the sport. That goes a long way to explaining just why the training of swords by blademasters seems to encompass the use of blade forms that seem to be expressions of poetry as much as actual fighting.