Seanchan "attack" on the White Tower?

[algspkr]

You're using logic, which doesn't necessarily apply to these situations. Mat knows he is important to the prophecies, yet he nearly let that woman kill him in Maderin. Those decisions are emotionally driven, and his emotions would tell him to go to help Egwene, where he would not always listen to the logic that would tell him to go to the Horn. Yet another reason for Verin (knowing Mat's nature as she does) to either take it to him directly or give it to Rand, who can essentially grab Mat up by the scruff of the neck.

 

Seriously, there is no compelling reason for anyone to take the Horn to Illian.

Just playing devils advocate.

There is a Seanchan attack on Illian.

Rand sends Matt to Illian to deal with it.

Verin gets the Horn from Tar Valon and takes it to Matt in Illian.

 

I do not honestly believe that this will happen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I do not honestly believe that this will happen.

 

Yeah, me either. Even if .... if Rand sent Mat to deal with a Seanchan invasion into Illian (and all indications are that the Seanchan are contemplating no such move at the moment, or that Rand would send Mat to deal with it if they were), unless Mat plans to blow the Horn against them, there's still no reason for Verin to take it there.

 

Plus, the only reason people are bringing up Illian and the Horn is that Mattin Stepaneos is in the Tower. That has nothing to do with Mat.

 

Sorry, this whole line of "reasoning" is just too full of holes for me to even seriously consider.

[DemandredFO]

I've not worked out the times but I think that at the same time the WT assault is happening Mat will be heading to the Tower of Genji. I guess Rand could travel to get mat before but I doubt it, I think the next time Rand sees Mat he will have Moraine, Thom and probably Farstrider in tow. I think the only possible connection Mat would have to Illian is leading its armies cuz Rand isn't a battle-leader.

 

P.S. The Horn WILL NOT go to Illian or Mattin Stephaneous. Also isn't it concievable that Verin has gone to get somthing else?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also isn't it concievable that Verin has gone to get somthing else?

 

Yes, it is. We don't actually know that Verin has gone for the Horn. It seems to make sense, but it is certainly not ironclad.

[Luckers]

Yeah Roberts right, as far as i can tell the evidence for Verin coming to the Tower is simply that for the first time in like five books the Horn is suddenly being mentioned everywhere--Perrin thinks on it being in the tower, Mat thinks on blowing it, casual references are made all over the place. Then Verin leaves after having talked about how close the Last Battle is saying that she is going to where she can serve Rand best, and Verin is one of three people who know the exact location of the horn.

 

Tis' hardly set in stone, but it is indicative.

 

Also why would Rand send Mat to deal with an attack on Illian. He has an army of around 400,000 + 3000 channelers sitting there, and mat is no where near rand.

[DemandredFO]

My bad, I wasn't clear I meant during Tarmon Gaidon if Mat is to have connection with Illian.

[cloglord]

Verin is one of three? Nope, ur wrong, one of two.

 

 

TDR Pg 161

 

"the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this where no one but we TWO know.'" [Emphasis mine.]

[algspkr]

Verin is one of three? Nope, ur wrong, one of two.

 

 

TDR Pg 161

 

"the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this where no one but we TWO know.'" [Emphasis mine.]

Is it possible that Verin still believes that Suian is dead?

 

I think it to be unlikely. While most of the people she has met who know her to be alive did not know she had been Healed and so their not mentioning her would make sence, but she has also met Nyneave whose ego would almost certainly drive her to brag about the Healing.

[DemandredFO]

Nyneave have en ego you're f@$%ing kidding me :lol: Everyone in the series with the possible exceptions of Mat and Perrin are so arrogant the books should weigh 500 lbs.

[Mat is the Boss]

Nyaneve may have a ego the size of the Mountains of Mist, but I doubt she has bragged about the healing. Wasn`t Rand surprised to learn thar Logain was an Asha`man, that he could channel again at all?

[algspkr]

Nyaneve may have a ego the size of the Mountains of Mist, but I doubt she has bragged about the healing. Wasn`t Rand surprised to learn thar Logain was an Asha`man, that he could channel again at all?

That's understandable. I don't see her bragging about Logain, but Suian and Leanne?

[Mat is the Boss]

Perhaps she told about Siuan and Leane, and left Logain out, but wouldn`t she have told Rand when Logain showed up?

 

I don`t think Nyaneve has told Rand anything of what she`s been doing since Tear. Not that she fixed the weather, not how many times she have fought Moghedien.

 

Nyaneve may have a huge ego, but she don`t seem to be bragging. In fact, no one of the main characters seem to do this. Logain doesn`t even know that it was Rand that removed the taint. Rand should have announced that at the Black Tower, AND the White Tower. It would have boosted his supporters hope before Tarmon Gaidon, and frightened the darkfriends enough to leave him alone, or even join the Light.

 

If the main characters had bragged more, Rand would have an easier job planning Tarmon Gaidon, now he don`t know their strenghts or weaknesses. What would happen if Tuon offers him tea with forkroot, if no one has told him about it?

[Nelm]

A couple of small points...

 

The deathwatch guards have two ravens tattooed on their backs to symbolize the Seachan and their alliance to the Crystal Throne. I believe the two ravens is symbolic of a single attack on the Aes Sedi.

 

Why the Aes Sedi instead of the white tower? (I am not saying they won't be attacked at the White Tower) A white flame is the symbol of the female Aes Sedi. Even in the ancient symbol. The attack will shake the Aes Sedi to the core and scatter them. But I also think it will help reinfoce Egwene wanting to get rid of the three oaths.

 

Also to note that Min during her time in the tower saw several Aes Sedi that would be leashed.

 

Also it is the deathwatch guards that are aware that Sul'Dam can also channel. They showed in interest in the investigation that was being made. And one must wonder if they would preserve that secret or capitalize on it.

 

I think the attack on the White Tower will happen. It will force the Aes Sedi to stand together instead of divided. I don't see them remaining long however they are sent away.

[CrazyMike]

I don't think the Death watch Guard will be involved in the Attack on the WT,,, because they are closely tied to TUON and I do not think she ordered the attack on the WT and may not be aware it is taking place,,, also the DWG (deathWatchGuard) are the personel protectors and enforcers for the Throne and now TUON, they are not the Troops that lead the battles (tho they are the best)

[DemandredFO]

Tuon KNOWS the attack on the white tower is happening because as people have said before she told Mat that she intends to make Tar Valon her capitol. Now Tuon make very well not know the exact commencement date for the attack cuz she is the empress and that's the way you lose wars; having political masters approve every tactic, every battle plan but mayhaps for an attack of such importance Tuon will be told. This is my opinion. Further, I think the Deathwatc Guards will participate cuz of the importance and as Mike said, one of the few times I will agree with him, they are the best of the best. Based on Luckers' estimate, which I will use, the invasion force will have at most 8,000 soldiers, probably a little less. Since Tuon has a personal interest, the attack will get the best demane and soldiers and soldiers are the DWG. that's the way I see it

[algspkr]

I am not sure we will see much if any Deathwatch Gaurd partisipation in the attack. Fists of Heavan are considered very good soldiers by the Seanchan, some rank their abilities above the Gaurds, on top of which they are speciffically trained for to'raken attacks.

[Guest Anonymous!]

I have been following this thread since it started back in early November with some interest since I had a very similar discussion a while back. I agreed with some of the chemteach1977 initial assessments. I think the Ravens do not necessarily represent the Seanchan. I think the number of times characters have been certain of a fact and later proven (or we as readers know) to be wrong is abundant proof that Egwene could be wrong about this dream. Plus I think chemteach1977 is correct in the assertion that an invasion and occupation force does not really satisfy the “flew on without so much as a pause" portion of the dream. I became very interested in the “Seanchan woman/plinth” dream a while back and started going through prophecies/dreams at the WoT FAQ to see if I could glean any additional information. I found a string of prophecies/dreams that have some common threads and for the most part have not occurred. They are included below:

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Egwene’s Dreams:

(1) “She had dreamed of Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.”

 

(2) “There had been a dream of Mat and Seanchan, too, but she was willing to dismiss that as a nightmare. Just like the one about Mat speaking the Old Tongue.”

 

(3) “Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.”

 

(4) “Mat spoke words she almost understood - the Old Tongue, she thought - and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them that Perrin had been of the hawk and the falcon, yet the defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance. In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous. “

 

(5)”On bare feet, Gawyn walked [toward her] across a floor of broken glass, shards breaking at every slow step...she could see the trail of blood left by his slashed feet.”

 

(6) “...a man riding on a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her...but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks... She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower… Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop…”

 

(7) “Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.”

 

(8 ) She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent. [Egwene climbs up on top of a spire.] A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.”

 

Elaida's Foretelling #2:

“The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

From Noal:

“Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.”

 

From the Dark Prophecy:

“The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.”

------------------------------------------------

Conclusions:

From (6): In Egwene’s future, she will end up on the chopping block (figurative or literal, I’m unsure), or her life will be in peril, and it will be up to someone else to save her.

From (6): That Gawyn will have to make a difficult choice between what appears to be an easy life and a hard life. One of them involves pursuing Egwene, and he appears chooses her.

From (5): Pursuing Egwene will be very painful to him, and might involve choosing to hurt himself.

From (1): The Seanchan will attack the White Tower with Damane.

From (3) and (8 ): Egwene will become allies with a Seanchan woman.

From (6) and (8 ): Egwene will try to tear down, or defeat, or surmount the White Tower/Aes Sedai, and she can’t do it alone.

From (3) and Elaida’s Foretelling: Rand will confront or face the Amyrlin/Egwene, and it may not be a pleasant experience.

From (8 ) and Elaida’s Foretelling: That Aes Sedai will not be unified and there will be outcast Aes Sedai and Amyrlins (White Flames).

From (8 ): Something symbolized by Ravens will shake the White Tower to its core.

From (8 ): Egwene needs help from a Seanchan woman to surmount the White Tower.

From Noal’s blurb and (4): Mat is symbolized by a fox causing ravens to take flight. The dream (4) further indicates Mat’s involvement with Ravens, TWO ravens in fact.

From (7): Mat will have to make a decision about two Aes Sedai. He appears to be weighing to Aes Sedai against one another indicated by the imagery of the scale. Some people have suggested that this has been satisfied by the Aes Sedai he took from Ebou Dar, but the world did not appear to hinge on that decision.

From the Dark Prophecy: We know that Luthair Paendrag was known as the Hammer, and many people have taken the “seed of the Hammer” to be the Seanchan. In this section of the prophecy the “seed” burns a tree (Tarabon) and slays an ancient wrong, before the Dark One comes (ie the Final Battle).

------------------------------------------------

From KoD and CoT: Tuon can channel and she has acknowledged it (but she chooses not to channel), and Mat is the Prince of the Ravens, further tying him to Ravens symbolism. We also know that Egwene will be having a confrontation with Elaida shortly, since she is to be serving girl for Elaida at breakfast. We also know that Gawyn is working for Elaida and has been called back into the city. He is complying because he believes Elaida holds the key to finding Elayne.

------------------------------------------------

 

I believe Tuon is the woman with the sword strapped to her back and Mat is the Ravens taking flight that shakes the tower. I do want to say up front this is an outlandish theory, and I am not married to it, I just think an interesting story can be made if you look at all the prophecies and not just one little tidbit.

 

Dream 8 clearly represents Egwene’s struggles to get the Tower. It starts with her struggling up a cliff representing her climb to the top of the Tower, and suddenly the floor drops out and the climb becomes impossible. I would say Egwene’s struggle for the White Tower has been difficult to date, but it has not become impossible. Thanks to Elaida, Egwene still has the opportunity to sway the White Tower Aes Sedai to her side. If she were stilled and sent to a farm in the Mountains of Mist, like all the other false Amyrlin’s, then it would be impossible. Not to mention Egwene has her much anticipated appearance as “Serving Girl Egwene” at Elaida’s breakfast. Jordan practically stamped “Climax” on that breakfast. I think the breakfast will set off a chain of events that will lead to Egwene no longer able to get the White Tower under her control.

 

This is where Gawyn’s dreams come in. I think Egwene’s Amyrlin act will so infuriate Elaida that she will be sentenced to death, fulfilling the “chopping block” portion of dream 6. Gawyn is the person who is running to save her. He is currently serving Elaida because he believes that Elaida holds the key to finding Elayne and Egwene. Last time we saw him he was summoned to the White Tower by Elaida. Upon his arrival he will find out that Egwene is imprisoned and possibly sentenced to death. He will have to choose between serving Elaida and finding his sister, or helping Egwene escape and losing any chance of finding his sister. By choosing Egwene, he will believe that he is losing his sister, and that should be very painful as represented by walking on “broken glass” in dream 5. Following Elaida would appear the easier route and saving Egwene may result in Gawyn’s death, fulfilling “the two roads” portion of dream 6.

 

After Gawyn’s rescue, taking the Tower will become impossible. Since she can’t channel, maybe Gawyn smuggles her out, or maybe some of the Aes Sedai Egwene has won over will help her escape. Either way she ends up outside of Tar Valon looking in. They cannot starve the city out since the North Harbor is open and Elaida has gateways. Attacking using gateways will not be nearly as effective now that some of Elaida’s Aes Sedai have gateways from Beonin. Infiltration using inverted weaves, disguise, etc. won’t work since Beonin has shared those secrets as well. Plus Egwene has finally figured out that she can’t spend 12 months laying siege to Tar Valon because the Seanchan could show up at anytime. Her only alternative is to attack, which should be suicide. Taking Tar Valon is now pretty darn close to impossible.

 

From dream 1 we know that Seanchan will attack the White Tower. We also know from dreams 3 and 8 Egwene allies herself with a Seanchan woman. I believe this woman to be Tuon. A person I had this discussion with earlier suggested that the “sword” strapped to the Seanchan woman’s back represents the One Power. By the sword being “strapped to her back” indicated that the woman refused to use the sword. So basically, a woman who refuses to use the One Power, and from KoD we know that could be Tuon.

 

Tuon shows up with an army. How? I don’t know. I don’t think we are supposed to know. There could be any number of possibilities and I’m sure it will be one of Jordan’s “surprises” for AMoL. Anyway, after Tuon shows up with the Seanchan army, Byrne pulls his forces together to fight the new threat, which essentially breaks the siege. With a Seanchan at her front, and the walls of the White Tower at her rear, it is now impossible for Egwene to take the White Tower (dream (8 ). I don’t know if there is a battle or not, but at some point Egwene and Tuon reach an agreement, satisfying that portion of dream 8 and is a prelude to Rand confronting Egwene in dream 3. When the Hall of the White Tower sees the unified Rebel-Seanchan army, they ask for Egwene’s terms of surrender. Elaida gets pissed, and flees with some followers using gateways, satisfying “remnants cast out and scorned” portion of Elaida’s foretelling.

 

Now that the White Tower is unified under 1 Amyrlin, something symbolized by “two ravens” will shake it to its core. Mat has an insane amount of symbolism connecting him to ravens: his ring has a fox startling ravens, ashandarei has two ravens on it, the prophecy of the dragon says “fox that makes the ravens fly”, he now holds the title Prince of the Ravens, and even in one of Egwene’s dreams Mat has a pair of Ravens perched on his shoulders (4). Not to mention Mat has a long history of fixing other peoples problems (particularly the Aes Sedai, and Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve) to achieve his own objectives. He helped the Supergirls by taking a letter to Morgase so he could escape Tar Valon. He helped the Supergirls get the bowl of winds and fixed their Sea Folk problems in Ebou Dar so he could get Elayne to Andor. He took those Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar so he could escape quietly. He just has a history of cleaning up other peoples messes.

 

So Mat has to do something that shakes the Aes Sedai to its core. In fact it causes Aes Sedai to break off from Egwene’s unified White Tower causing some Aes Sedai to be stilled (“Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished”) and other Aes Sedai to set up different sects under new Amyrlins (“Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame”). What could Mat do that would cause such a divide? I don’t know, but here’s a whacky theory: it’s the three oaths.

 

One of the major themes out of Egwene’s storyline in CoT is that at the Heart/Core of the Aes Sedai are the three oaths. I think Mat gets Egwene to alter the three oaths or possibly add a fourth oath. There is a violent reaction to the three oaths change, but Mat gets what he came for and leaves before he has to deal with the fall out. Why does he go to tar Valon? I don’t know. There are a number of plausible reasons.

 

So why does Egwene have to alter the three oaths? Because Tuon is there with a massive army and demands it of Egwene. Tuon knows that Sul’dam can channel. She also knows that other people have that information too. It’s just a matter of time before that information tears her nation apart. According to the Dark Prophecy “Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.” We know from the seed is the Seanchan. The Seanchan must correct some ancient wrong before the Final Battle. The ancient wrong is the collaring of Damane. But the Seanchan think all Aes Sedai are power hungry warmongers who want to enslave all people who can’t channel. So Tuon makes a deal with Egwene, all Sul’Dam and Damane will fall under the Aes Sedai in exchange for a guarantee that the Aes Sedai will never try to take over or subvert the Seanchan kingdom. The guarantee will be a fourth oath or a modification to the three oaths. I think Mat will be the one who forces Egwene and Tuon to the peace table, and he will be the one who suggests the modification to the three oaths.

 

How does Tuon and the Seanchan Army show up? I don’t know. Pick a way. The Raken as Luckers says, or Rand makes a peace deal with the Seanchan in exchange for the knowledge of gateways, or Seanchan slipped a fleet through Tear while Rands followers were besieged by the rebels (we know the Seanchan are in Tear from KoD), or the Seanchan Damane from FoH who saw Aviendha’s gateway finally figured out how to make one. Any way is as realistic as the next.

 

Why does Mat show up? Once again, pick a way. Mat meets up with Perrin and gets an Asha’man who makes gateways. He saves Moiraine and she forces him to get the Horn of Valere. OR he meets up with Rand and Rand sends him to Tar Valon to force a conclusion to the White Tower Civil War. OR Rand sends him to get the Horn. OR Rand sends him to make a peace deal with Tuon, and Mat takes Tuon and the Seanchan army to the White Tower. I don’t know, but they are all realistic.

 

The point is that I think Mat is the Two Ravens, Tuon is the Seanchan woman from dreams 3 and 8, something happens at Elaida’s breakfast resulting in Egwene being executed and ultimately makes it impossible for Egwene to get the Tower, Gawyn has to choose between saving Egwene and finding Elayne, and the Sul’Dam and Damane are rolled into the White Tower as a result of Egwene’s and Tuon’s peace deal, which will causes a mini-revolt in the White Tower.[/i]

[Luckers]

Verin is one of three? Nope, ur wrong, one of two.

 

 

TDR Pg 161

 

"the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this where no one but we TWO know.'" [Emphasis mine.]

 

Oh good show! I concede total defeat. Now if it just wasn't for the fact that Fain knows exactly where the Horn is, i'd totally bow to you forever.

 

Don't be so sure unless your sure buddy. Verin. Suine. Fain. Three.

 

I think the Ravens do not necessarily represent the Seanchan. I think the number of times characters have been certain of a fact and later proven (or we as readers know) to be wrong is abundant proof that Egwene could be wrong about this dream.

 

Thats in assumption. Egwene states that this dream came with relative knowledge, which we know to be a function of Dreaming. Additionally it's corroborated by the fact that we know for sure that the Seanchan have mounted an assault force, and are about the attack the tower.

[algspkr]

I love this theory.

I have been following this thread since it started back in early November with some interest since I had a very similar discussion a while back. I agreed with some of the chemteach1977 initial assessments. I think the Ravens do not necessarily represent the Seanchan. I think the number of times characters have been certain of a fact and later proven (or we as readers know) to be wrong is abundant proof that Egwene could be wrong about this dream.

The only person we have seen misinterprate her own "visions" is Elida, at least she is the only one I can think of who has done so.

Plus I think chemteach1977 is correct in the assertion that an invasion and occupation force does not really satisfy the "flew on without so much as a pause" portion of the dream.

That is correct, but a "domenae" collection run would fit it.

I became very interested in the “Seanchan woman/plinth†dream a while back and started going through prophecies/dreams at the WoT FAQ to see if I could glean any additional information. I found a string of prophecies/dreams that have some common threads and for the most part have not occurred. They are included below:

 

------------------------------------------------

Egwene’s Dreams:

(1) “She had dreamed of Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.â€

 

(2) “There had been a dream of Mat and Seanchan, too, but she was willing to dismiss that as a nightmare. Just like the one about Mat speaking the Old Tongue.â€

 

(3) “Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.â€

Just a note, "and one of them was a Seanchan" never realy registered with me.

(4) “Mat spoke words she almost understood - the Old Tongue, she thought - and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them that Perrin had been of the hawk and the falcon, yet the defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance. In another, a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous. “

 

(5)â€On bare feet, Gawyn walked [toward her] across a floor of broken glass, shards breaking at every slow step...she could see the trail of blood left by his slashed feet.â€

 

(6) “...a man riding on a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her...but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks... She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower… Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop…â€

 

(7) “Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.â€

 

(8 ) She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. [...] Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. [...] Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent. [Egwene climbs up on top of a spire.] A small white plinth stood centered in that circle, supporting an oil-lamp made of clear glass. The flame on that lamp burned bright and steady, without flickering. It was white too. Suddenly a pair of birds flashed out of the mist, two ravens black as night. Streaking across the spire-top, they struck the lamp and flew on without so much as a pause. The lamp spun and wobbled, dancing around atop the plinth, flinging off droplets of oil. Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanished. Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flame. And the lamp continued to wobble on the edge of falling.â€

 

Elaida's Foretelling #2:

“The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds."

 

From Noal:

“Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.â€

 

From the Dark Prophecy:

“The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.

Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.â€

------------------------------------------------

Conclusions:

From (6): In Egwene’s future, she will end up on the chopping block (figurative or literal, I’m unsure), or her life will be in peril, and it will be up to someone else to save her.

From (6): That Gawyn will have to make a difficult choice between what appears to be an easy life and a hard life. One of them involves pursuing Egwene, and he appears chooses her.

From (5): Pursuing Egwene will be very painful to him, and might involve choosing to hurt himself.

I believe this may have to do with his mental anguish about Rand.

From (1): The Seanchan will attack the White Tower with Damane.

From (3) and (8 ): Egwene will become allies with a Seanchan woman.

From (6) and (8 ): Egwene will try to tear down, or defeat, or surmount the White Tower/Aes Sedai, and she can’t do it alone.

From (3) and Elaida’s Foretelling: Rand will confront or face the Amyrlin/Egwene, and it may not be a pleasant experience.

Personally I think the Amyrlin's anger will not visably affect Rand, and that he will get her to bend, rather than the other way around.

From (8 ) and Elaida’s Foretelling: That Aes Sedai will not be unified and there will be outcast Aes Sedai and Amyrlins (White Flames).

I have a slight issue with "outcast" Aes Sedai, setting up rogue towers and Amyrlins just based on the size of the Tower's population, and Elaida:"whole and stronger than ever"

From (8 ): Something symbolized by Ravens will shake the White Tower to its core.

I am not sure that I agree that it won't be the Seanchan.

From (8 ): Egwene needs help from a Seanchan woman to surmount the White Tower.

From Noal’s blurb and (4): Mat is symbolized by a fox causing ravens to take flight. The dream (4) further indicates Mat’s involvement with Ravens, TWO ravens in fact.

This all implies "ravens" interacting with Mat. Two ravens on his shoulders could be Toun and Selucia, we have no idea what if any his relationship with Selucia will be.

 

Making the ravens fly could be his campaign to get out of Altera.

From (7): Mat will have to make a decision about two Aes Sedai. He appears to be weighing to Aes Sedai against one another indicated by the imagery of the scale. Some people have suggested that this has been satisfied by the Aes Sedai he took from Ebou Dar, but the world did not appear to hinge on that decision.

We have not seen all of their controbutions. But there are three of them, and he did not realy choose between them.

From the Dark Prophecy: We know that Luthair Paendrag was known as the Hammer, and many people have taken the “seed of the Hammer†to be the Seanchan. In this section of the prophecy the “seed†burns a tree (Tarabon) and slays an ancient wrong, before the Dark One comes (ie the Final Battle).

------------------------------------------------

From KoD and CoT: Tuon can channel and she has acknowledged it (but she chooses not to channel), and Mat is the Prince of the Ravens, further tying him to Ravens symbolism. We also know that Egwene will be having a confrontation with Elaida shortly, since she is to be serving girl for Elaida at breakfast. We also know that Gawyn is working for Elaida and has been called back into the city. He is complying because he believes Elaida holds the key to finding Elayne.

When was he called back into the city? I believe he is the one leading the raids against the rebels at the end of CoT.

------------------------------------------------

 

I believe Tuon is the woman with the sword strapped to her back and Mat is the Ravens taking flight that shakes the tower. I do want to say up front this is an outlandish theory, and I am not married to it, I just think an interesting story can be made if you look at all the prophecies and not just one little tidbit.

 

Dream 8 clearly represents Egwene’s struggles to get the Tower. It starts with her struggling up a cliff representing her climb to the top of the Tower, and suddenly the floor drops out and the climb becomes impossible. I would say Egwene’s struggle for the White Tower has been difficult to date, but it has not become impossible. Thanks to Elaida, Egwene still has the opportunity to sway the White Tower Aes Sedai to her side. If she were stilled and sent to a farm in the Mountains of Mist,

I think it's the Black Hills, but same differance.

like all the other false Amyrlin’s, then it would be impossible. Not to mention Egwene has her much anticipated appearance as “Serving Girl Egwene†at Elaida’s breakfast. Jordan practically stamped “Climax†on that breakfast.

Isn't it dinner, but I agree.

I think the breakfast will set off a chain of events that will lead to Egwene no longer able to get the White Tower under her control.

 

This is where Gawyn’s dreams come in. I think Egwene’s Amyrlin act will so infuriate Elaida that she will be sentenced to death, fulfilling the “chopping block†portion of dream 6. Gawyn is the person who is running to save her. He is currently serving Elaida because he believes that Elaida holds the key to finding Elayne

I believe we had a POV from him showing that he knew the location of Elayne, I am certain that he at least believes her to be with the rebels.

and Egwene. Last time we saw him he was summoned to the White Tower by Elaida.

I believe that he was given orders to start raids on the rebles, not return to the tower.

Upon his arrival he will find out that Egwene is imprisoned and possibly sentenced to death. He will have to choose between serving Elaida and finding his sister, or helping Egwene escape and losing any chance of finding his sister. By choosing Egwene, he will believe that he is losing his sister, and that should be very painful as represented by walking on “broken glass†in dream 5. Following Elaida would appear the easier route and saving Egwene may result in Gawyn’s death, fulfilling “the two roads†portion of dream 6.

I think that Rand will play into this not Elayne (at least this directly) or Elaida.

After Gawyn’s rescue, taking the Tower will become impossible. Since she can’t channel, maybe Gawyn smuggles her out, or maybe some of the Aes Sedai Egwene has won over will help her escape.

If this does happen as you have laid out it will be Aes Sedai as I do not believe that Gawyn is in any position to help.

Either way she ends up outside of Tar Valon looking in. They cannot starve the city out since the North Harbor is open and Elaida has gateways. Attacking using gateways will not be nearly as effective now that some of Elaida’s Aes Sedai have gateways from Beonin.

The majority lack gateways, and we have yet to see anyone work on a defense against them.

Infiltration using inverted weaves, disguise, etc. won’t work since Beonin has shared those secrets as well.

Again most don't know these weaves and no one has found a way to penetrate them.

Plus Egwene has finally figured out that she can’t spend 12 months laying siege to Tar Valon because the Seanchan could show up at anytime. Her only alternative is to attack, which should be suicide. Taking Tar Valon is now pretty darn close to impossible.

 

From dream 1 we know that Seanchan will attack the White Tower. We also know from dreams 3 and 8 Egwene allies herself with a Seanchan woman. I believe this woman to be Tuon. A person I had this discussion with earlier suggested that the “sword†strapped to the Seanchan woman’s back represents the One Power. By the sword being “strapped to her back†indicated that the woman refused to use the sword.

I would have to disagree with that analogy, I would say that it is either Toun with an army at her call or Eagan/Leilwin, with a sword. I am not sure which I prefer.

So basically, a woman who refuses to use the One Power, and from KoD we know that could be Tuon.

 

Tuon shows up with an army. How? I don’t know.

KOD implies to'raken.

I don’t think we are supposed to know. There could be any number of possibilities and I’m sure it will be one of Jordan’s “surprises†for AMoL. Anyway, after Tuon shows up with the Seanchan army, Byrne pulls his forces together to fight the new threat, which essentially breaks the siege. With a Seanchan at her front, and the walls of the White Tower at her rear, it is now impossible for Egwene to take the White Tower (dream (8 ). I don’t know if there is a battle or not, but at some point Egwene and Tuon reach an agreement, satisfying that portion of dream 8 and is a prelude to Rand confronting Egwene in dream 3. When the Hall of the White Tower sees the unified Rebel-Seanchan army, they ask for Egwene’s terms of surrender. Elaida gets pissed, and flees with some followers using gateways, satisfying “remnants cast out and scorned†portion of Elaida’s foretelling.

 

Now that the White Tower is unified under 1 Amyrlin, something symbolized by “two ravens†will shake it to its core. Mat has an insane amount of symbolism connecting him to ravens: his ring has a fox startling ravens, ashandarei has two ravens on it, the prophecy of the dragon says “fox that makes the ravens flyâ€, he now holds the title Prince of the Ravens, and even in one of Egwene’s dreams Mat has a pair of Ravens perched on his shoulders (4). Not to mention Mat has a long history of fixing other peoples problems (particularly the Aes Sedai, and Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve)

LOL

to achieve his own objectives. He helped the Supergirls by taking a letter to Morgase so he could escape Tar Valon. He helped the Supergirls get the bowl of winds and fixed their Sea Folk problems in Ebou Dar so he could get Elayne to Andor. He took those Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar so he could escape quietly. He just has a history of cleaning up other peoples messes.

You skipped his method of obtaining an army.

So Mat has to do something that shakes the Aes Sedai to its core. In fact it causes Aes Sedai to break off from Egwene’s unified White Tower causing some Aes Sedai to be stilled (“Some of those drops caught fire in midair and vanishedâ€) and other Aes Sedai to set up different sects under new Amyrlins (“Others fell around the short column, each supporting a tiny, flickering white flameâ€).

I still don't see this breakup as being this severe.

What could Mat do that would cause such a divide? I don’t know, but here’s a whacky theory: it’s the three oaths.

 

One of the major themes out of Egwene’s storyline in CoT is that at the Heart/Core of the Aes Sedai are the three oaths. I think Mat gets Egwene to alter the three oaths or possibly add a fourth oath. There is a violent reaction to the three oaths change, but Mat gets what he came for and leaves before he has to deal with the fall out. Why does he go to tar Valon? I don’t know. There are a number of plausible reasons.

 

So why does Egwene have to alter the three oaths? Because Tuon is there with a massive army and demands it of Egwene. Tuon knows that Sul’dam can channel. She also knows that other people have that information too. It’s just a matter of time before that information tears her nation apart. According to the Dark Prophecy “Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.†We know from the seed is the Seanchan. The Seanchan must correct some ancient wrong before the Final Battle. The ancient wrong is the collaring of Damane. But the Seanchan think all Aes Sedai are power hungry warmongers who want to enslave all people who can’t channel. So Tuon makes a deal with Egwene, all Sul’Dam and Damane will fall under the Aes Sedai in exchange for a guarantee that the Aes Sedai will never try to take over or subvert the Seanchan kingdom. The guarantee will be a fourth oath or a modification to the three oaths. I think Mat will be the one who forces Egwene and Tuon to the peace table, and he will be the one who suggests the modification to the three oaths.

This is my favorite part of the theory, if it happens Egwene will not accept a fourth oath, maybe an adjustment to the no killing or just a spoken oath after the first.

How does Tuon and the Seanchan Army show up? I don’t know. Pick a way. The Raken as Luckers says, or Rand makes a peace deal with the Seanchan in exchange for the knowledge of gateways,

Rand would have to convince a woman to teach them this, and I don't see any with him being willing to share this knowledge.

or Seanchan slipped a fleet through Tear while Rands followers were besieged by the rebels (we know the Seanchan are in Tear from KoD),

A small for in infiltrators, not a fleet or army.

or the Seanchan Damane from FoH who saw Aviendha’s gateway finally figured out how to make one.

They did not see it, they could only feel it thanks to Asmodean. And in WH we see from a Sea Folk PoV that seeing an open Gateway does not impart the knowledge of how to make one.

 

If it was not cloaked one with the ability to read residues could do it though.

Any way is as realistic as the next.

 

Why does Mat show up? Once again, pick a way. Mat meets up with Perrin and gets an Asha’man who makes gateways.

I don't see this happening, I do not believe that he and Perrin will see each other before he rescues Moiraine.

He saves Moiraine and she forces him to get the Horn of Valere.

I think it is related to this, but differant. He saves Moiraine, finds out she has been stilled and heads to Camelyn to see Nyneave. Upon finding her missing gets Elayne to send him to Rand.

OR he meets up with Rand and Rand sends him to Tar Valon to force a conclusion to the White Tower Civil War. OR Rand sends him to get the Horn. OR Rand sends him to make a peace deal with Tuon,

My money is on the deal with Tuon.

and Mat takes Tuon and the Seanchan army to the White Tower.

I believe that they will already be at Tar Valon

I don’t know, but they are all realistic.

 

The point is that I think Mat is the Two Ravens, Tuon is the Seanchan woman from dreams 3 and 8, something happens at Elaida’s breakfast resulting in Egwene being executed and ultimately makes it impossible for Egwene to get the Tower, Gawyn has to choose between saving Egwene and finding Elayne,

I don't like the Gawyn part.

and the Sul’Dam and Damane are rolled into the White Tower as a result of Egwene’s and Tuon’s peace deal, which will causes a mini-revolt in the White Tower.

I love that idea and have toyed with similar thoughts, but have not been able to get the to colasce into anything close to this possible.

[Mik]

Just a little something that occured to me while reading all the stuff about Egwene and the Seanchan woman (Tuon);

What if Egwene needs to trust her enough to let her put the a'dam on her...

It's either that..or fail (die?).

 

"We can reach the top together"

 

Not saying that's going to happen, but it would be a wicked twist, considering their past.

An unlikely possibility maybe,.. but a fun one to consider.

[cloglord]

Wow Luckers, I must have hit a nerve.

 

You're still wrong. Fain does not know where the horn is. He found the dagger, in a high security storeroom in a lead lined box, where it was put after its seperation from Mat. The horn was not stored with the dagger. Suian said that the horn would be hid somewhere where only she and Verin knew of it. I do not rememeber which character said it, but it was mentioned that the contents of the storerooms were being counted daily by AS now. It seems unlikely that Suian would have hid it anywhere where it would have been counted and catalouged.

[Guest Anonymous!]

Thnk you for the feedback, and like I said I'm not married to the theory. I was just trying to plug holes and fill in the story.

 

...I believe we had a POV from him showing that he knew the location of Elayne, I am certain that he at least believes her to be with the rebels...

...I believe that he was given orders to start raids on the rebles, not return to the tower...

 

You are right. I forgot that Gawyn was informed about Elayne being with the rebels in the beginning of CoT. We do not find out what Gawyn’s orders are in CoT. In my version of events, I choose to make it a summons to see Elaida. For all we know it could be an order to conduct raids. My version is just wishful thinking. I looked at the dreams involving Gawyn and it appeared that some of the events have not happened yet. The walking over “broken glass†could just as simply be Egwene asking him not to seek revenge against Rand, but I don’t want Gawyn’s storyline to be such a waste of time (a simple revenge scheme that has no foundation since Morgase is alive). It’s not that I like Gawyn, its just that I don’t want all that text I have read about him to be wasted time. At least in my scenario he actually helps advance the plot and storyline of the entire WoT series. The very second Egwene has the White Tower all that remains for Gawyn is Min’s Foretelling and his pointless revenge storyline. Plus he is right there in Tar Valon. He has a small force, and he is loyal to Egwene. It wouldn’t be that much of a stretch for him to help her escape.

 

...The majority lack gateways, and we have yet to see anyone work on a defense against them...

...Again most don't know these weaves and no one has found a way to penetrate them...

 

Like I said there are holes, but answer these questions first. 1) After Egwene escapes how long will it take to organize her Aes Sedai, contact Byrne, realize she has to attack, and get her forces into position? A few days maybe, a few hours at least. 2) How long does it take to teach an Aes Sedai a new weave? In KoD Elaida learned in a few seconds. She could have the necessary information taught to everybody within an hour. 3) Before KoD could a woman detect a man channeling? No, you can't predict discovery. I'm not saying any of this will happen, but its not unfeasible.

 

...Rand would have to convince a woman to teach them this, and I don't see any with him being willing to share this knowledge...

 

I agree. The Aes Sedai won't teach the Seanchan. The Wise Ones certainly wouldn't. But what of Alivia? She has no loyalty to the Aes Sedai or the Wise Ones. She is extremely loyal to Rand as seen in KoD. We also know she is learning weaves without the Aes Sedai teaching her. She might be willing if he asked her...

 

Not saying its gonna happen but its plausible.

 

...They did not see it, they could only feel it thanks to Asmodean. And in WH we see from a Sea Folk PoV that seeing an open Gateway does not impart the knowledge of how to make one.

 

If it was not cloaked one with the ability to read residues could do it though...

 

I could have sworn it was only invisible on Asmodean’s side, and that Rand thought the Gateway looked “greyed†out.

 

I said it was realistic. In scientific discovery, one of the key elements is discovering if a thing is possible. The Damane/Sul’Dam felt and possibly saw a gateway, and then witnessed people go through one. They know its possible. Another key part of scientific discovery is motivation. They had a Seanchan noble and Seeker right there. I’m sure as soon as Rand let them go and the Gateway closed, I’m sure the noble said “What was that? How did they do that? How did they do that? Okay…Figure it out.†And I’m sure the noble hasn’t let up on that Damane and Sul’Dam. You don’t see someone vanish into thin air and just go “Okay let's forget that ever happened.†You try to figure out how they did that. Another critical part to discovery is time. How long ago was FoH? It’s got to be over a year ago. For you to make a discovery you have to know its possible, have the motivation to achieve it, and the time to make it happen. That Damane/Sul’dam from FoH have all of that.

 

So if Jordan chose to go that route, it would be believable, and in my opinion probable. I think it’s more believable than the Raken assault on Tar Valon. I’m not saying a Raken airdrop assault is not possible, I just don’t think it’s possible for Tar Valon.

[DemandredFO]

I think I agree with cloglord about horn and Fain not knowing where it but I will ask. Are there any indications that Fain knows where the Horn is? I mean Fain found the dagger cuz it's part of Mordeth who is part of Fain.

 

2. What are Fists of Heavan never heard of 'em? Thanks

[CrazyMike]

Annonymous!

I was confused by your post,,, but I would like to offer sometrhing if I understood at all:

 

I agree. The Aes Sedai won't teach the Seanchan. The Wise Ones certainly wouldn't. But what of Alivia? She has no loyalty to the Aes Sedai or the Wise Ones. She is extremely loyal to Rand as seen in KoD. We also know she is learning weaves without the Aes Sedai teaching her. She might be willing if he asked her...

 

Not saying its gonna happen but its plausible.

 

If I understood correct it refered to teaching the Senchan to make gateways,,, if so then ,,, Alivia rabidly hates the Senchan and only wants any and every opportunity to kill them ,,, I doubt she would agree to teach them anything unless she veiwed it as an opportunity to kill a bunch of them...

[algspkr]

Thnk you for the feedback, and like I said I'm not married to the theory. I was just trying to plug holes and fill in the story.

 

You are right. I forgot that Gawyn was informed about Elayne being with the rebels in the beginning of CoT. We do not find out what Gawyn’s orders are in CoT. In my version of events, I choose to make it a summons to see Elaida. For all we know it could be an order to conduct raids.

We see in an Egwene PoV that raids are being conducted on the rebels. The only signifigant force Elaida has outside of the Tower that we know of are Gawyn's Younglings.

...The majority lack gateways, and we have yet to see anyone work on a defense against them...

...Again most don't know these weaves and no one has found a way to penetrate them...

 

Like I said there are holes, but answer these questions first. 1) After Egwene escapes how long will it take to organize her Aes Sedai, contact Byrne, realize she has to attack, and get her forces into position? A few days maybe, a few hours at least. 2) How long does it take to teach an Aes Sedai a new weave? In KoD Elaida learned in a few seconds. She could have the necessary information taught to everybody within an hour. 3) Before KoD could a woman detect a man channeling? No, you can't predict discovery. I'm not saying any of this will happen, but its not unfeasible.

You are right about the discoveries, but Elaida does not see her position as one of strength, and so is doing everything in her power to prevent the knowledge from speading to those she considers unreliable, which is most of the Tower, and her suspission of the Red Ajah will grow considerably when she learns of their warders.

...Rand would have to convince a woman to teach them this, and I don't see any with him being willing to share this knowledge...

 

I agree. The Aes Sedai won't teach the Seanchan. The Wise Ones certainly wouldn't. But what of Alivia? She has no loyalty to the Aes Sedai or the Wise Ones. She is extremely loyal to Rand as seen in KoD. We also know she is learning weaves without the Aes Sedai teaching her. She might be willing if he asked her...

 

Not saying its gonna happen but its plausible.

Alivia despises the Seanchan, but if instructed to a bonded Aes Sedai would have to teach them, so that is a means to accomplish this.

...They did not see it, they could only feel it thanks to Asmodean. And in WH we see from a Sea Folk PoV that seeing an open Gateway does not impart the knowledge of how to make one.

 

If it was not cloaked one with the ability to read residues could do it though...

 

I could have sworn it was only invisible on Asmodean’s side, and that Rand thought the Gateway looked “greyed†out.

Rand saw it as greyed out because it was cloaked in Sadin, but Avindah saw it as invisible, she said something along the lines of: If I had not been able to feel the weaving I would not have known it was there.

So if Jordan chose to go that route, it would be believable, and in my opinion probable. I think it’s more believable than the Raken assault on Tar Valon. I’m not saying a Raken airdrop assault is not possible, I just don’t think it’s possible for Tar Valon.

I believe that they are in the process of creating "base camps" along the route to Tar Valon. They are establishing them with to'raken, and are moving each one further north.