Seanchan "attack" on the White Tower?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wonder if the tea effectes learners who havn't learnt, and i wonder how the Seanchan would deal with that, seeing as how they dont know about learners or how to train them.

 

Now that is an interesting question, which has an interesting application if the answer it "Yes is does". What would happen to the Seanchan, socially, if a bunch of sul'dam got slipped some forkroot tea?

[CrazyMike]

I believe that the Forkroot is a General Analgisic that effects everyone and has the added bonus of blocking Channeling ,,, the reason is the narcotic effect of the tea, grogginess and if the dose is strong enough sleep or death,,, such a overall bodily effect has to be general to the human race, if it only effected the ability to channel there would not be a Narcotic effect on the body...

[Shinobi]

This situation will last maybe a week, i suspect, with the fighting being sporadic at best. Then Tarmon Gai'don will reach the tower. Specifically i believe there will be two or three massive assaults from the shadow. One through the Shadows Lance, to be met by Rhuarc, one through Tarwin's Gap, to be met by Lan. Lan will travel ahead of that one harrying it as he can, and arrive in Tar Valon early to bring warning. It is at around this time that things will come to a head with the Black Ajah, and a confrontation between the Hunters and the Alviarin will drive them into the open. Perhaps Alviarin will be captured, or Mesanna--not sure. I do see a confrontation between Mesanna and Egwene though.

 

 

 

I dont think the blight will push out i think they will stay in. Think about it. Rand is trying ti rally everyone to go to the blight but he is having trobule . So all the blight charging out would let him unite. I think that tarmon Gai'don will be fought entirely in the blight at the pit of doom. Because thats what happened in the age of legendens the troolocs charged out and lewis thein lead a small force to the pit of doom

[hapazard]

I believe that the Forkroot is a General Analgisic that effects everyone and has the added bonus of blocking Channeling ' date=',, the reason is the narcotic effect of the tea, grogginess and if the dose is strong enough sleep or death,,, such a overall bodily effect has to be general to the human race, if it only effected the ability to channel there would not be a Narcotic effect on the body...[/quote']

 

Both yes and no..

 

While forkroot do affect ordinary people it takes very much of it. So much that the amount that would make a non channeler groggy would probably knock out a channeler.

 

For exampel in KoD Perrin uses forkroot on the Shadio and while rendering most of the wise ones unable to channel no one else notices.

[CrazyMike]

Hapazard

 

While forkroot do affect ordinary people it takes very much of it. So much that the amount that would make a non channeler groggy would probably knock out a channeler.

 

For exampel in KoD Perrin uses forkroot on the Shadio and while rendering most of the wise ones unable to channel no one else notices.

 

While I agree that the amount needed to effect the ability to channel is less than the amount needed to make someone groggy,,, I totaly disagree that the amount needed to make a NON-Channeler Groggy would knock out a Channeler,,, I believe the effect would be universaly the same with variences only dependent on individual bodily characteristics and possibly on the effects of unknown other chemicals and compounds in the body at the time ...

 

When Perrin's plan was enacted they threw huge quantities of Forkroot into a cold fresh water stream,,, when forkroot tea is made the Forkroot is boiled in water and the tea is very strong... Cold water does not leach out the active ingrediants in the Forkroot as well as Hot Water and the Stream of water was not so strongly laced with Forkroot that normal drinking would knock anyone out and also no one noticed the bitter taste of the Forkroot in that water because it was so weak,,, and not all the Wisewomen were unable to channel though certainly all had drunk some amounts of water from the time the Forkroot was put in the water and the time the attack took place...

 

Egwen is shown to be alert and able to function but a little light headed from the Forkroot the WT sisters give her...

[Anajon]

# CoT,Ch30 – When Egwene is captured at Northharbor someone drugs her with forkroot.

# KoD,Prologue – Silviana intends to keep Egwene drugged with forkroot. Forkroot affects channelers much more strongly than those who cannot channel.

# KoD,Ch4 – Perrin learns that the Seanchan are using forkroot to detect and capture men and women who can channel.

# KoD,Ch11 – Mat learns that the Seanchan army at the Murandy border is using forkroot to detect and capture men and women who can channel.

# KoD,Ch12 – Perrin and Tylee go to Almizar to procure thousands of pounds of forkroot. (encyclopaedia WOT, http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ )

 

Forkroot does make channeler (male and female) week and collapse - I'm not sure about the learners so :-?

But if they are capturing man and woman - it sounds like it includes learners and people who have not yet sparked.

[Luckers]

The Tower Aes Sedai investigated the property of forkroot, and Elaida states that ten times the amount that would have a channeler unconcious barely makes a non-channeler dizzy.

[algspkr]

I believe that the Forkroot is a General Analgisic that effects everyone and has the added bonus of blocking Channeling ,,, the reason is the narcotic effect of the tea, grogginess and if the dose is strong enough sleep or death,,, such a overall bodily effect has to be general to the human race, if it only effected the ability to channel there would not be a Narcotic effect on the body...

In KoD, I think, an AS says that a person who can't channell can drink enough of the tea to make a channeller pass out and barely feel dizy.

 

With Perrin's attack we see only Wise Ones and Morgase passing out.

 

When Perrin is talking with the Seanchan about the tea they say that all people who cross the borders are made to drink it, some pass out, the women are collared, I'm not sure if they have started collaring men or not.

[Anajon]

I got the collaring men from the encyclopaedia web side - I didn't remember it and don't have the books here (I'm in London and the books are in Germany :-( )

 

But if some one could check out the passage mentioned in my post above? What does it say about men?

[CrazyMike]

Ok, I stand corrected, but it seems out of phase to me,,, it should effect both Channelers and non-channelers bodily the same...

 

However,,, RJ did say that the ability to channel is genetic,,, if it is Genetic then the forkroot effect could work that way because of a genetic tendency ...

 

and since Channeling is Genetic,,, when the DO takes the soul of one of his Forsaken and Swaps it into the body of another person, thereby bring the Foresaken back to life, the strength and power at channeling of the resurected Foresaken should depend on the strength and power at channeling of the Body they were resurected into and not on the Foresakens former strength and power at channeling... Therefore "Lanfear's" Strength and power at channeling should depend on the strength and power at channeling that the person whose body she now has had at the time and not on Lanfear's former strength and power before she was resurected by the DO,,, even if the Eelfinn did take some of her power when she went through the twisted ter'angrel doorway (WH,Ch35)...

"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind"

[Luckers]

Nope, channeling is a function of the soul, but its development depends on the genetic suitability of the body to channeling. The recycled Forsaken never had to start channeling again, or have it develop as an ability, which is why the change in physical local doesn't effect them. Otherwise Aran'gar should be channeling saidar.

 

Channeling alters the physical bodies of the channelers, we know this through the slowing, the increased physical resistance to illness, and the increase in the strength of their sensory perceptions. The fact that a medicinal plant could affect people with this altered physiology in a different way to those that lack it seems normal.

 

It would also suggest that the tea would not effect those that had not started to channel yet.

[CrazyMike]

Luckers

 

Why did Robert Jordan say channeling is Genetic if it is not?

 

However,,, RJ did say that the ability to channel is genetic,,,

 

I was quoting a post on another subject,,, if I remember where it was I will post it later...

[loki redfern]

It would also suggest that the tea would not effect those that had not started to channel yet

isnt it more probabal that it would work like the the collar affecting those who can channel and those with the spark, but not those who are taught-the effect probably being closer to that of a none channeler.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Think on this though, in Seanchan those who can learn to channel are eligeble to be trained to control damane(sul dame or something) So I doubt the tea would work as well but it doesnt say how it affects wilders and others and how much is actually required. Correct if I am wrong but I dont remember in KOD and telling of how much they used in these "testings" but that may be why they have so much of the forkroot. They do not know all they can about it yet so I am sure the stockpile is more for study and for the return to Seanchan to assist in the capture of Damane there.

[CrazyMike]

I think that the Sul'dam are weak in the power is the reason that they are able to use the leash of the collored Damane,,, if they were able to Channel significantly they would also be collored and be Damane ,,, the Seanchan test all females for the ability to channel in their homeland across the sea, they do not wait for them to show the spark, and at the time they test for Damane they also find the weak Channelers that are able to be Sul'dam.

 

The Seanchan have another method for testing for the ability to channel in their homeland,,, they do not use Forkroot in Seanchan Land... Does not mean that they won't use it now ...

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Sul Dam are found later arent they? Egwene is a wilder but many women dont "spark" and must be trained. I thought that is how it was explained. I will try and bring up documentation for this.

 

 

*runs for his books*

[CrazyMike]

"Egwene al'Vere" is not a Wilder and she did not Spark,,, "Egwene al'Vere" was tested by Moraine Aes Sedai to determine if she could channel and then Moraine began teaching Egwene how to channel,,, TEotW: Chapter 12

 

when they were fleeing the DO's minions on their way to Tarwins Ferry ,,, the Horse Bella was barely able to keep up and it is revealed later that Rand al'Thor was unconciously using Saiden to strengthen Bella ...

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Sorry I was thinking of Nyvy. The point stands(I dont have my books) but sul dam are trained. If they were caught before then there would be NO suldam only damane. Thats all I was saying. Pardon the mistake.

[CrazyMike]

No need for my pardon,,, we all make mistakes from time to time ,,, this is a discussion and we are all trying to find answers to questions we have and bring up points we would like to discuss...

 

The Sul'dam are weak channelers and by Seanchan Standards are not thought to be able to channel but something in the testing reveals an ability to master the leash of a Damane...

 

As an example of what I am saying:

"Queen Morgase Trakand" mother of Elayne is a weak channeler and by the Standards of the Seanchan she would be a Sul'dam ,,, she would then be trained just the same as "Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag", Mat's new wife, was trained...

[CrazyMike]

Speaking of "Queen Morgase Trakand"; wouldn't it be Wild and weird if she were given the Leash of a Black Ajah Aes Sedai or a Foresaken that had been broken to be a Damane ...

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Wild yes, but I think far fetched. She respects the WT and knows that would not go over well. Thanks for the clarify. I swear I saw something...If I uncover it I will message you since this active thread will be far beyond that soon enough.

[Luckers]

Egwene was a sparker, Moiraine just guided her through the first touching. The process of Learning is different.

 

The Sul'dam are not weak in the power, they simple cannot touch it, just as other learners cannot. The leash holds only those have have an active ability to channel, including sparkers who havn't yet sparked. Women are tested every year until after they are full past the age were sparking occurs.

 

RJ did not say the ability is genetic, you just quoted yourself. He has made comments about the influence of genetics on the ability to channel, but channeling itself is an ability of the soul.

[loki redfern]

morgase would be a damane if caught and tested for the collar now, as she can actually channel,even if she is very weak in the power. though obviously she could also be a sul'dam as well

[Anajon]

Hi I think people's definitions are a bit mixed up so I will try to ad to the chaos :-)

 

the spark - is the inborn ability to channel - it can be tested and then developed controlled, like with Egwene and Elayne or some of the other Two river girls and we see (like Mat's sister)

 

if a sparker is not found early enough - they will manifest channelling by themselves - like Nyn - these people are called wilder by the Aes Sedai and often develop a block.

 

Lerner: have the ability to learn to channel but if not discovered they will not channel all their life, like the older Lady with the rebels who was in Nyn testing vision.

 

I don't think we have ever been told that learners are in general weaker then the "sparker" trained or wild. I believe that learners can become very strong in the power, it just needs some training to be released in the first place.

 

With the Seanchan - woman are tested if they have the spark manifest or still dormant -they become damane, if they are learners they become sul'dam. Both can be held by the collar - that's how we found out that sul'dam can channel, if developed they could most likely become as strong as some damane.

[Thor]

I am pretty sure the ability to channel is genetic.

 

Why does emond's field have so many sparkers? Because of the old blood.

 

It is definitely genetics, if you don't believe, then send a letter to RJ himself and ask. I bet he will say it is genetics.