What exactly was the voice?

[Dagon Thyne]

My friend, with whom I have had many debates over WOT, and I, were discussing the voice of LTT today. He still beleives that it is literally the voice of LTT speaking to Rand. However, I recall reading that Rand realizes the voice is not really him at the end of TGS.

 

I assume that it was a type of split personality. Rand could not deal with the fact that he was LTT, so his mind created the voice, which was perceived, by Rand, as being seperate from himself, and gave Rand access to LTT's memories without the need for him to actually acknowledge, consciously, or subconsciously that they were his own.

[Naked~Frog]

The second part is correct.

 

Rand realizes, on top of Dragonmount that him and Lews Therin are, and always have been, the same person. It flat out states this as he comes to terms with himself and heals. My belief is that something in the taint causes men to remember their past lives, and speak with their past selves. That's why the Ashaman also hear voices sometimes, and why some of them claim they are real. They are. You see, the Dark One is the Lord of Death. He had Rand's mother, supposedly, at one point (though that could have been illusion) and he has access to their past memories or something... that or it's just him messing with the pattern again... but it is the real voice of Lews Therin, and the same sort of thing that happened with Matt. At first he was convinced they were another man's memories forced into his head. He acted crazy for a while and was frightened until he came to terms with it. So it has happened with Rand, but on a greater scale due to the taint.

[dapianoplay3r]

I recon it has to be real just for some of the things he learns from Lews aren't possible for his sub concise to know

[Din]

In Matt's case they are other men's memories. I'm sure there's a quote somewhere pointing out that the memories he has are from men of such disparate origin that they can't all be blood relatives of his.

[funsize]

Perhaps the truth is LTT and Rand are the same man in different context. So yeah split personality caused by viewing himself through another lens.

[Morsker]

It's a special mental disorder that only exists in the WoT setting with its system of reincarnation. Unfortunately Rand has more than one mental disorder. Besides the voice and memories, he has (or had) post-trauamatic stress, and severe anxiety about being a man who can channel. Without more examples, we can't separate which aspects of the "voice" are due to the special reincarnation-related personality disorder, and which are due to Rand's other issues.

[OptimusPrime]

It's a special mental disorder that only exists in the WoT setting with its system of reincarnation. Unfortunately Rand has more than one mental disorder. Besides the voice and memories, he has (or had) post-trauamatic stress, and severe anxiety about being a man who can channel. Without more examples, we can't separate which aspects of the "voice" are due to the special reincarnation-related personality disorder, and which are due to Rand's other issues.

 

Not true.

 

The voice in Rands head is a coping mechanism. Its existence has nothing to do with reincarnation.

 

Rand has access to Lews Therins memories, and those memories affect Rands personality like any memories do. But Rand couldnt handle that in the early days, so a voice was born in his head to represent those "foreign" memories, and the instincts that come with them. Lews Therin is the part of Rand that he couldnt understand, and he tried very hard early on to shut it out. But one way or another, it was coming and he couldnt stop it. A second personality was born, and Rand called it Lews Therin because it represents Lews Therins life, which Rand wanted out of his head.

 

But it is Rand all along. The very first thing that Lews Therin said in Rands head... It was not Lews Therin talking to Rand, it was Rand-With-AoL-Knowledge talking to Third-Ager-Rand. What do you get when you put them together? You get Rand Sedai.

 

The only time Lews Therin ever said anything was in EotW prologue.

[Suttree]

The only time Lews Therin ever said anything was in EotW prologue.

 

What are you referring to?

[Morsker]

Rand has access to Lews Therins memories, and those memories affect Rands personality like any memories do. But Rand couldnt handle that in the early days, so a voice was born in his head to represent those "foreign" memories, and the instincts that come with them. Lews Therin is the part of Rand that he couldnt understand, and he tried very hard early on to shut it out. But one way or another, it was coming and he couldnt stop it. A second personality was born, and Rand called it Lews Therin because it represents Lews Therins life, which Rand wanted out of his head.

This is exactly what I think it's impossible to conclude without more examples of characters with the same mental disorder. We don't know if the disorder that gives Rand past-life memories also brings personality issues with it. There are only two characters in the series that have past-life memories, and Birgitte's case has significantly different symptoms (more than one life of memories), and a medical explanation. Rand's is a psychological case.

 

I know this is a popular topic to make theories about, and I have some, but here I'm just trying to relate to the OP why there's a controversy. Rand is our only example. We know Rand has a particular mental disorder, but we don't have a symptom list for the disorder, to say what it's responsible for and what it's not, and it's hard to infer one because Rand is such a mess.

[Didgya]

The only time Lews Therin ever said anything was in EotW prologue.

 

What are you referring to?

In the prologue while talking to our good buddy Ishamel.

[Naked~Frog]

In Matt's case they are other men's memories. I'm sure there's a quote somewhere pointing out that the memories he has are from men of such disparate origin that they can't all be blood relatives of his.

 

I know. That's why I used him for comparison. Rand has some of Lews memories also.

[Mr Ares]

Rand having LTT's memories is a form of mental illness. They shouldn't be there. Note that this is not a symptom of the taint except insofar as the taint causes mental illness - it can happen without the taint, and people who go mad from the taint will develop all manner of possible mental instabilities. Past life memories is a symptom of madness, not of the taint. LTT's voice is not that of the man himself (who is dead), but is something more than just Rand. He was not two men - more like one and a bit.

[MauricXe]

Not true.

 

The voice in Rands head is a coping mechanism. Its existence has nothing to do with reincarnation.

 

 

I think you are correct with everything else except that it has nothing to do with reincarnation. I think it has everything to do with his reincarnation.

[Vermillion]

What we know.

 

The voice is based off real memories. Rand is LTT reborn. Rand remember other lives previous on Dragonmount. Rand/LTT, personalities/memories of the same soul, merged with Rand being the dominate personality. Rand had LTT memories pretty early on in the series.

 

What we know maybe.

 

The voice was insanity of the taint as one of the Forsaken wit the realer memories meaning more insanity. Though considering how she was trapped during the counter stroke how does she know? Rand has a dark taint on his brain(true by the braid pullers POV) that presumably held at bay by light, likely by whatever caused the merger on Dragonmount. Voice is how Rand dealt with reemergence of LTT's memories... maybe again caused or influenced by the taint causing insanity.

 

Pure speculation.

 

The taint causes access to past memories. The Dragon Reborn has access to previous Dragon life.

[Dagon Thyne]

I recon it has to be real just for some of the things he learns from Lews aren't possible for his sub concise to know

 

he knows them b ecause he is LTT.....He is both LLT and Rand al'Thor in the same body.....Both of their memories and lives in one.

[Dagon Thyne]

The second part is correct.

 

Rand realizes, on top of Dragonmount that him and Lews Therin are, and always have been, the same person. It flat out states this as he comes to terms with himself and heals. My belief is that something in the taint causes men to remember their past lives, and speak with their past selves. That's why the Ashaman also hear voices sometimes, and why some of them claim they are real. They are. You see, the Dark One is the Lord of Death. He had Rand's mother, supposedly, at one point (though that could have been illusion) and he has access to their past memories or something... that or it's just him messing with the pattern again... but it is the real voice of Lews Therin, and the same sort of thing that happened with Matt. At first he was convinced they were another man's memories forced into his head. He acted crazy for a while and was frightened until he came to terms with it. So it has happened with Rand, but on a greater scale due to the taint.

 

 

don't think it's only their past lives. I think it has different effects. Remember that Nynaeve healed the man who saw fades in the shadows around him? I think the taint caused him to literally see fades as they traveled through shadows.

[Dagon Thyne]

It's a special mental disorder that only exists in the WoT setting with its system of reincarnation. Unfortunately Rand has more than one mental disorder. Besides the voice and memories, he has (or had) post-trauamatic stress, and severe anxiety about being a man who can channel. Without more examples, we can't separate which aspects of the "voice" are due to the special reincarnation-related personality disorder, and which are due to Rand's other issues.

 

Not true.

 

The voice in Rands head is a coping mechanism. Its existence has nothing to do with reincarnation.

 

Rand has access to Lews Therins memories, and those memories affect Rands personality like any memories do. But Rand couldnt handle that in the early days, so a voice was born in his head to represent those "foreign" memories, and the instincts that come with them. Lews Therin is the part of Rand that he couldnt understand, and he tried very hard early on to shut it out. But one way or another, it was coming and he couldnt stop it. A second personality was born, and Rand called it Lews Therin because it represents Lews Therins life, which Rand wanted out of his head.

 

But it is Rand all along. The very first thing that Lews Therin said in Rands head... It was not Lews Therin talking to Rand, it was Rand-With-AoL-Knowledge talking to Third-Ager-Rand. What do you get when you put them together? You get Rand Sedai.

 

The only time Lews Therin ever said anything was in EotW prologue.

 

We;ll, technically, it is actually LTT, because Rand is LTT. They are one in the same. It is not a seperate voice or person, but it is still LTT

[Eht Slat Meit]

Theory: The Voice is a manifestation of Rand's third personality: the Dragon Soul, in direct response to his attempt to end the battle with Ba'alzamon without first realizing his potential, without first finding his enemy. IT IS NOT HERE: The battle is not here. Only the chosen one can do what must be done. Not Rand, nor the Dragon Soul, but the three who will become one: Rand, LTT, -and- the Dragon Soul.

 

The blade of light has already been wielded once, in dreams, but needs the Chosen One to find its full potential and wield it in reality.

 

Rand's scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

 

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. "Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light. ~ EoTW, ch51

[Rose]

I read about a study recently with schizophrenic patients showing that some parts of their brains which are involved with distinguishing self from non-self (corollary discharge mechanisms) were not functioning properly. Now this normally affects only motor and sensory responses (you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's you doing it) but in this case they linked it to mental illness. And the idea was that the "voices" they heard were actually their own thoughts, but they were unable to identify them as their own and therefore thought they were coming from an outside source. This seems to fit pretty well the idea that LTT's voice was a coping mechanism Rand developed to deal with the memories/personality from his past life coming to the surface.