Rand, Thom and Perrin

[Mowbray]

I don't know whether this thread exists or not. If yes, please post a link to it; if no, please comment.

 

Right now, I am on my way of rereading the entire WoT series, and some things struck out prominently than the rest.

 

Let's start with Thom. The first thing that made me wonder about him was in "Leavetaking" of TEotW, when he mentions Draghkar. Moiraine's reaction towards it was puzzling for him, as though she did not expect Thom to know about this. The next thing that came to my attention was Min's viewing in "Strangers and Friends" in the very same book. Nearly all the viewings have been depicted, except "growth" around Perrin, "laughing face" around Mat and "man juggling fire" around Thom. I don't want to talk about Mat or Perrin, as they already have a share. Here, I want to talk about Thom. Whhat does that viewing tell? Till now, we have nearly seen who will face whom in the end:

Rand- Moridin and Demandred

Mat-Fain

Perrin-Slayer

Egwene will go to the dark, and will be killed by Gawyn

Nynaeve-Moghedien and Cyndane

... and so on.

But the main character that seems to be without an opponent is Thom. What if this juggling guy is the one Thom has to face? What if Thom is more than what he wants to admit or hide? Thom could not have escaped Myddral, whatever he says; no one can expect the creature to leave him alive after he had caused so much damage to it? I personally feel that, apart from Demandred, we are in for a shock for Thom as well.

 

Let's move to RAND. This is only in relation with the portal stones in TGH. After going through the entire part - where Rand nearly kills others while using the Stone for the second time - I realised one thing.

Portal Stone are the key to the worlds that "might be". In all these worlds, Rand lost and died, and DO won. But one thing that was missing was RAND ALIVE IN THE END AND WON, AND DO LOST. Now, we all know that Rand will win, and DO will lose in the end, so that's the world we are in. But what about Rand living? In the alternate worlds, Rand had died, which means that there ought to be a world where Rand lives on, and what if the world is actually the one he's currently in? This gave me the final hint to the end: Rand will survive the LB.

 

Lastly, I want to talk about Perrin. Of all the viewings in the Portal Stone, two main characters' views are not mentioned: Mat and Perrin. The only thing Mat mentions about his was that "I would not have betrayed you, Rand ... you know it, don't you?", nothing else, which gives us an idea of what he might have gone through and seals the fact that Mat won't betray Rand till the end. But there is absolute silence about Perrin's. What did Perrin see in the Stone? Why did Jordan deliberately left it out and never mentioned it again? Even Masema's view has been penned, then why not Perrin? This, along with flowering, tells something is fishy. Maybe, Perrin is going to make a real, great decision or move in AMoL, something that will change the course of the battle. One thing is for sure: either Perrin will survive as the king of Saldaea or he will be killed by his own friends.

 

What do you think?

[FarShainMael]

I think Perrin will be involved in the goings-on at the Black Tower:

 

Grady came last {through the gateway}... He immediately looked westward, toward the BT. He'd tried to make a gateway there earlier in the day, when Perrin had given him permission. It hadn't worked. Perrin was disturbed by that. He intended to investgate soon, tonight or tomorrow night at the latest.

 

(I'm not sure where this is in the timeline.)

 

Of course, Perrin has experience of the Dreamspikes, what they do, what they look like, how to destroy them.

 

As far as the Portal stones are concerned: I'm confused about the difference between parallel worlds and alternate worlds, but I'm sure RJ has said that if the DO wins in one world, he wins in all. So I don't know who it was that whispered 'I win again, Lews Therin'. In any case, it's quite possible that Rand can win against the DO but die in the process.

 

Re Thom: It's been suggested that the 'man juggling fire' is Thom's nephew who could channel (the fire juggling) and who was gentled by the Red Ajah. He may still want his revenge for that.. But yes; how did he get away from that Fade?

[Barid Bel Medar]

mirror worlds = aspects of the pattern which could be. Like Rand in the portal stone with lanfear and such, where Trollocs had won. The same "land" as the one we know, just different events etc...

 

Parallel worlds= worlds different from that of Rand's. Such as the Finns, the ones the Grolm etc.. came from.

 

Alternate worlds, I would think were mirror worlds, with the possibilities etc... I am not sure how that works in with RJ's comments saying the DO would win in all if he won in 1. all I can remember is Verin saying that, and she may be wrong.

 

As to the original post.

 

1. Yeah, not sure about Thom. I don't think he will be able to channel. It may be that he was, as suggest, gentled, but I doubt such a major character such as Thom would begin to channel now. I recall Brandon saying something along the lines of no big new plotlines would be introduced, only existing ones resolved. Of course, you could say that this has been a recurrent plot, but I cant seem to think something that big would be put in without major evidence that points towards Thom channelling.

 

I thought the whole juggling fire meant his animosity towards Reds. Or him getting entangled in Aes Sedai plots etc.. then going to save Moiraine. (a similar viewing of him pulling her stone out of the fire) IN any case, I thought it had been done in some way now, but you may be right, Thom could have a major part left to play.

 

 

Rand: Rand wasn't always killed. Sometimes he died of old age etc. He lived and died countless lives in all different situations. Since no-one is immortal, there isn't an option where he doesn't die. But as mentioned, there are some where he dies "normally", so not sure about that being evidence he lives past the LB.

 

Strange about the whole "I win again." I have no idea really. On the first read, I always assumed fire-face was messing with Rand as he usually did in the first 3 books, somehow messing with the portal stones. However, now i have read more thoroughly, it seems less likely, but still could be. Aside from that, your guess is as good as any others.

 

 

Perrin: Nice one. I never thought of that before. On the one hand, it is an awesome idea that you have, and would be cool if the portal stone events influenced Perrin's arc. On the other, I find it highly unlikely that in the ensuing 11 books, Perrin hasn't at least thought of that event "onscreen". If it did predict such important events, then I would think that Perrin would have at least thought of it by now.

[FarShainMael]

Thanks for that!

[spoke]

Perrin - wasn't his reaction to try to scratch his eyes out, but Verin healed him.

[mandersen]

If Rand dies of old age, never fulfilling the prophecies and NOT fighting the LB, then "I won again" makes perfect sense. As for the DO winning in all worlds, that's for actual worlds like the finns and wherever the ogier came from, not mirror worlds. I believe RJ described the Wheel like a really smart super computer, and it's been postulated that the mirror worlds are the mechanism by which it figures out how it needs to shape events for it to work out. like every decision someone makes, the pattern runs simulations of both and see where it leads. All scenarios exist still in mirror worlds. The reason Rand (and everyone else) saw failures was because those were scenarios the pattern predicted and twisted events so it wouldn't go down that way. at least that's one theory. What Perrin saw i have no idea. but i suspect it had something to do with the wolves. He wasn't too keen on being a wolfbrother at that point, and he could've seen himself turning into one like Noam.

[FarShainMael]

Perrin - wasn't his reaction to try to scratch his eyes out, but Verin healed him.

 

The void vanished, contact with saidin fled, and Rand fell with a thud that would have knocked the breath out of him if he had not already been half numb. He felt rough stone under his cheek, and his hands. It was cold.

 

He was aware of Verin, struggling from her back to hands and knees. He heard someone vomit roughly, and raised his head. Uno was kneeling on the ground, scrubbing the back of his hand across his mouth. Everyone was down, and the horses stood stiff-legged and quivering, eyes wild and rolling. Ingtar had his sword out, gripping the hilt so hard the blade shook, staring at nothing. Loial sat sprawled, wide-eyed and stunned. Mat was huddled in a ball with his arms wrapped around his head, and Perrin had his fingers dug into his face as if he wanted to rip away whatever he had seen, or perhaps rip out the eyes that had seen it. None of the soldiers were any better. Masema wept openly, tears streaming down his face, and Hurin was looking around as if for a place to run.

 

...

 

{Rand} wondered what lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. He must have told someone, or he wouldn’t be so anxious about it. He could not hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one. Besides, after some of the alternatives he had seen for himself . . . ”I believe you. Perrin?”

 

The curly-haired youth dropped his hands from his face with a sigh. Red marks scored his forehead and cheeks where his nails had dug in. His yellow eyes hid his thoughts. “We don’t have many choices really, do we, Rand? Whatever happens, whatever we do, some things are almost always the same.”

 

That's all we have. But that's an interesting comment from Perrin.

[Suttree]

1. Yeah, not sure about Thom. I don't think he will be able to channel. It may be that he was, as suggest, gentled, but I doubt such a major character such as Thom would begin to channel now. I recall Brandon saying something along the lines of no big new plotlines would be introduced, only existing ones resolved. Of course, you could say that this has been a recurrent plot, but I cant seem to think something that big would be put in without major evidence that points towards Thom channelling.

 

Per RJ Thom can not channel.

 

Lord of Chaos book tour Seattle 25 October 1994 - Tony Zbaraschuk reporting

 

Q: Can Thom channel?

RJ: Absolutely not. I never intended anyone to think he could.

 

Rand: Rand wasn't always killed. Sometimes he died of old age etc. He lived and died countless lives in all different situations. Since no-one is immortal, there isn't an option where he doesn't die. But as mentioned, there are some where he dies "normally", so not sure about that being evidence he lives past the LB.

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Yeah, it's always been kind of weird that RJ insisted that Min's viewings are never about the past, but I always linked the man juggling fire to his nephew Owyn, and the viewings around Lan certainly seemed about his past.

[Durinax]

thoms juggling man is him trying to help all teh young kids, trying to keep them all safe while keeping them out of AS plots

[Mowbray]

Yeah, it's always been kind of weird that RJ insisted that Min's viewings are never about the past, but I always linked the man juggling fire to his nephew Owyn, and the viewings around Lan certainly seemed about his past.

I don't think that's Owyn. He was sort of a man trying to help others, rather than performing tricks. And moreover, Owyn juggling fire doesn't even make sense.

Perrin is already in the Field of Merrilor to be involved in Black Tower now. His sudden support for Rand is giving me jitters, especially when when Thom has opposed him at certain point. Perrin's newly-found blind trust for Rand has made me wonder what's really cooking in the mind of Brandon - and was cooking in the mind of Jordan.

[Barid Bel Medar]

About Perrin - Blind trust.

 

I have to disagree. I think you will find that Perrin has always trusted Rand from the get go. He is, at least, the most supportive out of the Two Rivers bunch overall. Nynaeve is now, but she wasn't always, only after VoG event. Perrin has pretty much stood by Rand every time. He has of course, questioned his sanity etc.. but he always trusted him to do the best.

 

It is hardly blind aswell. Perhaps too trusting, but not blind. He agrees with Rand because he sees the reasoning as sound, and compares it with his Blacksmith metaphor about using new steel to re-forge a blade, throwing away the old steel etc.. (or whatever it was) Hardly "blind" in the way I think you are talking about.

 

No, i would have to say its a combination of:

1. Perrin's nature (he is trusting and loyal to his friends)

-Surprisingly, it was actually Perrin who was the first to accept that the three Ta'veren must help each other. For all his whining about being a simple blacksmith, not wanting to be a leader, he has never backed down when it concerns the Shadow and Rand/Mat. I think it was as early as book 2 or 3 when Mat and Rand were denying it all and trying to run away, Perrin had accepted (to a degree) that he had to help Rand.

 

2. The Ta'veren link. Something in the link, when they see each other at times etc.. brings them closer together. Notice that they never disagree with each other, or are at odds, not like Egwene and the others, who disagree and fight over what is best. The 3 boys seem to have gained some insight from the bond they share, they are pretty much united in their aims. (Mat might complain and make some comments about Rand's plan, but I find it hard to believe he wont agree, due to aforementioned reason.

 

3. Perrin understands what Rand is doing. That is the key point. the others see only the release of the Dark One, and recklessness. They dont seem to understand the way that Rand and Perrin do. Ie- the whole "clear the rubble" before building anew etc..

[FarShainMael]

Perrin is already in the Field of Merrilor to be involved in Black Tower now.

 

The timelines are confused (and confusing!) Recall VoG in TGS - we didn't get Perrin's PoV on that until ToM30, 'Men dream here'. I suspect there's a similar timeshift in ToM epilogue - that the BT has been sorted out chronologically before we get that scene with Rand and Mierin; we just haven't been given it yet.

[moroten]

Hey.

 

I've been gone from the forums for quite some time now. Just recently started lurk around again.

 

Must have missed alot of interesting threads, from where do we get the idea that Egwene will turn dark and get killed by Gawyn(personally love the idea)?

 

On topic.

 

Those lives were lives of possibility were different choices were made. I hardly believe they will affect their current lives since those lives had different choices made before they even are at this point. And if it somehow Perrin saw an exact same life with all the choices he had made up untill that point, he will have loads of information and know when and how to do the right thing. Which is doubtful since Perrin has been caught by suprise more than once since then.

 

Just my take on things.

[Suttree]

Must have missed alot of interesting threads, from where do we get the idea that Egwene will turn dark and get killed by Gawyn(personally love the idea)?

 

Sorry to inform you then that we don't have that idea. Not sure why the OP seems sure of it but to say it is highly unlikely would be an understatement.

[moroten]

Must have missed alot of interesting threads, from where do we get the idea that Egwene will turn dark and get killed by Gawyn(personally love the idea)?

 

Sorry to inform you then that we don't have that idea. Not sure why the OP seems sure of it but to say it is highly unlikely would be an understatement.

 

Figured, knew about Luckers thread concerning Egwene dying, but that was before the last installement in the series I believe.

[Cybertrolloc]

Yeesh, http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/op/owyn.html It's important enough to Thom's character to be that, and comes up a few times in the early books.

[LeeM.Erickson]

And moreover, Owyn juggling fire doesn't even make sense.

 

I saw it as sort of a visual metaphor for a man channeling.

[master]

Sorry to inform you then that we don't have that idea. Not sure why the OP seems sure of it but to say it is highly unlikely would be an understatement.

 

meh. That whole list seems to be speculation.