one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Lol! Perhaps that's why Asmo was so surpised. He walked in to discover Greandal necking a giant flagon of wine.

 

But more seriously, ta'veren things are not always dramatic and unbelievable. Like when Rand and Min go to see the rebels and just happen to open a gateway where Caroline Damodred was about to appear. It can make unlikely chance encounters happen.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It can make unlikely chance encounters happen, but only if it was at least possible. It couldn't have reached out and made Graendal decide to come to Caemlyn. It could, conceivably, have made Asmodean enter a room where she was. Then again, it could just as easily made him not enter the room.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm dismissing everybody, not just Graendal... school's out! :lol:

 

My point with Graendal was that she has shown no inclination for any direct action to this point. In fact, everything we know about her is that she is even more shadowy and unseen than Moghedien.

 

It's a really big jump to assume she suddenly decides to go to Caemlyn and then off's Asmo just because he's in the neighborhood, too.

 

The biggest argument against either Sammael or Graendal is that Rahvin didn't trust either of them a bit. Neither would have dared approach him without ample warning first. He would definitely shoot first and let the DO sort it out later. He'd also mined all of Caemlyn with traps... both against the possibility of an attack by Rand and the possibility of treachery by his fellow conspirators. Rahvin was so startled by Rand's appearance in the throne room because he'd arranged a whole gauntlet of traps that he thought he could manipulate any attacker into running. All of those traps would have been keyed to anyone other than Rahvin channeling. Either Sammael or Graendal gating in would have tripped those traps as well.

 

The argument that Graendal was supposed to be there, awaiting Rand's attack on Sammael won't hold up either. Nobody had any idea when Rand would attack good ol' Sam. They all had other duties for the DO that they couldn't shelve just to wait around on Rand.

 

And, finally there's the stated fact that Graendal was supposed to be meeting Moghedien that day, and nowhere near Caemlyn. Moggy's failure to make that meeting is how Demandred knows she's missing when he reports to the DO the next day.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Its really not true that nobody had an idea when Rand would attack. They may have been setting him up to attack Illian, but Moghedien knew that Rand was going to attack Caemlyn the very day he did. Remember, she told Nyneave about it and that was why they were there for the fight.

Greandal also seems to do a large amount of information gathering around Rand, like when she knew exactly what that messenger from Sammael said to Rand and what his reply was. If Moghedien knew that Rand would attack Caemlyn then why shouldn't Greandal? In fact, it could well have been Greandal that told Moghedien, seeing as she was busy in Salidar at the time. She may have gone to Caemlyn herself just to warn Rahvin of that very fact, but got diverted by some amazing plonk in the wine pantry. Its yet another very possible reason that prime suspect Greandal could have been in Caemlyn.

[Graendals favourite]

Graendal's favourite, you missed my point about Travelling indoors. You don't need to know the destination for the Travelling to work. You don't really need to know your origin for short distances. When Travelling inside a building, you do need to know the destination as a safety precaution. A Gateway will cut right through walls and pillars, and cutting through a load bearing one can kill you by collapsing the building.

 

Ok, that ways. But in Travelling, you form the image, and make it same. Why must it be done in front of a pillar. Cause people travel indoors all the time anyway. Only in this instance she actually saw there was a door, so directly perpendicular to it should be safe. Anyway, does a vertival slash necessarily collapse a pillar? I don't see it any more dangerous that travelling otherwise. We haven't seen anyone open an gateway in the middle of a tree, either.

 

 

** Having walked any time at all in the Palace, Graendal would know that it was empty.**

 

if that is enough reason, then she would be a nitwit. knowing the palace is mostly empty doesn't rule out the possibility of being seen by someone on some random errand. it doesn't make it realistic.

 

But realisticly it was. You're not allowed to be a Forsaken if you fear to take a chance that much. The servants aren't going to harm you, and if Asmodean becomes warned, then the only thing happens is that the ambush must be called off. You can still Skim away from the palace at any given moment. I follow the drift here, but don't see it as relevant.

 

**Open gateway, dive through, let it close on your heels.**

 

and if you do that, you are left to sorting yourself out while they are walking into the room, ruining the ambush.

 

Well, i said dive to point out that the world is dynamic, and not static. Thus it is possible to suddenly hurry, instead of walk through the gateway at a stately pace. Not saying you really need to dive headfirst, i think running is faster, but even sitting down it is possible to kill.

 

On your response there in the middle I don't know to whom, Compulsion wasn't an option not knowing whether he held the power, the same reason why the shock of ambush was useful.

 

 

On that issue of accidentally the two meeting, it is possible, though unlikely. The thing is, as I said before, it would be more than irrational to kill then, so fast, and being unmasked there in the first place.

 

You guys ought to remember, that it isn't terrible if word should reach Rand that someone had done strange tricks and he thus might suspect a Forsaken would be/ had been around. As if he didn't suspect that otherwise.

[Guest Admiral]

I can't believe people STILL don't understand this one.

The identity of the murderer was INCREDIBLY obvious.

 

One word. Bela.

 

Marak buddy your back. But it wasnt Belal' date=' im afraid it was Lews Therin.[/color']

[Keige]

Lews Therin? Since when has he had any hatred against Forsaken? Sounds pretty weak. But Bela, blood and bloody ashes! She hated Asmodean more than the DO himself! Sorry, but it seems that Bela is the obvious murderer.

[Guest Admiral]

I posted something a couple pages back, explaining how lews therin did it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Its really not true that nobody had an idea when Rand would attack. They may have been setting him up to attack Illian' date=' but Moghedien knew that Rand was going to attack Caemlyn the very day he did. Remember, she told Nyneave about it and that was why they were there for the fight.

Greandal also seems to do a large amount of information gathering around Rand, like when she knew exactly what that messenger from Sammael said to Rand and what his reply was. If Moghedien knew that Rand would attack Caemlyn then why shouldn't Greandal? In fact, it could well have been Greandal that told Moghedien, seeing as she was busy in Salidar at the time. She may have gone to Caemlyn herself just to warn Rahvin of that very fact, but got diverted by some amazing plonk in the wine pantry. Its yet another very possible reason that prime suspect Greandal could have been in Caemlyn.[/quote']

 

Actually, Graendal didn't know what Rand's response was.

 

From The Lord of Chaos, "To Understand a Message", page 347.

 

Sprawling in a heavily gilded chair -- or perhaps it was solid gold; that would be like him -- he balanced one boot atop the toe of the other and stroked his golded beard. "Besides, I sent an emissary to al'Thor. And the answer was favorable."

 

Graendal almost spilled her wine. "It was? I heard that he killed your messenger." If her knowing that much shook him, he held it in. He even smiled.

 

"Al'thor killed no one. Andris went there to die; do you think I wanted to wait on couriers, or pigeons? How he died told me al'Thor's answer."

 

"Which was?" she said carefully.

 

"A truce between us."

 

Icy fingers seemed to dig into her scalp. It could not be true. Yet he looked more at ease than she had seen him since waking. "Lews Therin would never --"

 

"Lews Therin is long dead, Graendal." The interruption was amused, even mocking. No anger at all.

 

She covered a deep breath by pretending to drink. Could it be true?

 

Whatever Graendal knew was at least second hand, and probably 3rd or 4th. She thought Rand had killed the messenger which was wrong. She is obviously started and worried by what Sammael is telling her. She thinks truce could be possible when the answer was no truce.

[Keige]

It was lews therin. With the incident in the dream world where Rand entered in the flesh' date=' there was a conflict between lews and Rand over who would control their body. I believe that after this, lews left Rand's body ( you notice that there is an absence of lews therins voice in rands head after) and re-entered the real world to kill asmodean, who Lews Therin knew would betray Rand eventually.[/color']

Oh, okay. I thought you were just joking earlier.

[Kadere]

I just love that this site has only been up for 5 days and already have 9 pages on this topic. Wow, we'll never be satisfied until he spoils it. Well, I could transfer all my arguments, but I don't feel like reading 9 pages worth of the same old information. Maybe I'll pop in at page 205. :D

[Marak]

I can't believe people STILL don't understand this one.

The identity of the murderer was INCREDIBLY obvious.

 

One word. Bela.

 

Marak buddy your back. But it wasnt Belal' date=' im afraid it was Lews Therin.[/color']

 

No, no. You misunderstood me. Belal was dead at this point in time. Balefired, in fact. It was Bela. Remember Egwene's horse? The one she rode from both the Two Rivers and through the World of Dreams? All the evidence points to her!

 

And it definitely wouldn't have been Lews Therin. Firstly, I doubt Asmodean would've known that it was Lews Therin, if he was inhabiting Rand's body. He would've been placating, saying something along the lines of "My Lord Dragon?", not "YOU!".

 

However, just hear me out here. Bela is a recurring character. She's the ONLY horse that we see on a regular basis. Furthermore, it is quite likely that she's both a ninja and a pirate.

 

I mean, seriously. Who do you think that voice was in EoTW? Bela. Who killed Asmodean? Bela. Who married three women? Bel-.. I mean, Rand. But that's not at all relevant to my theory!

 

You see, Asmodean was actually a robot. A robot made of... shinymetalalloytanium. Bela, however, afraid that Asmodean could replicate himself into a horse robot and thus take her place, decided to finish him off before he fused with Optimus Prime to become Mecha-Asmodean (Or Ultra-Asmodean. Both sound good).

 

I mean, RJ said it was obvious, and someone we'd met before. Graendal couldn't take down a robot. Sammael is far too short. Moridin wasn't around then.

 

However, Bela used the Master Ball to catch Pikachu, and fused with the Pikachu to gain the powers to defeat robots!

 

Now, are we all clear on this? It's really quite simple. :D

[Guest Egwene]

Destroying the reputation of a well loved mare that is unable to defend herself against accusationes....shame on you Marak!!!! :evil:

 

By the way...I don't think we will ever know for certain. RJ (funny...old enough to remember JR??) is going to scatter a few more hints, but not tell us straight out.

 

This is something that makes me wobble in Moiraine. Because in her case it would be part of her story when we see her again it would almost have to be told.

 

One thing for the Graendalonians.... when Asmo drifts away from Mat and Avi, he does quite a bit of thinking so the door could be the only one along a fairly long corridor. (Just to give a bit of free ammo to your travelling behind the door theory.)

[Guest Winespring Brother]

[quote name="cwestervelt

Whatever Graendal knew was at least second hand' date=' and probably 3rd or 4th. She thought Rand had killed the messenger which was wrong. She is obviously started and worried by what Sammael is telling her. She thinks truce could be possible when the answer was no truce.[/quote]

 

2nd hand, yes, because I highly doubt she was in the room at the time. But your missing the point. It would hardly have been announced over the city that Sammael sent a messenger to Rand, yet Greandal still knew. Sammael's claim clearly shocked her because she was pretty certain as to what happenned, indicating that she does keep what she considers to be very close and accurate tabs on Rand. That she was wrong in that occasion is irrelevant. She expected to be right, and you can only expect to be right if you have had success in the past. Thus she could well have known that Rand was planning an attack on Caemlyn. There were certainly members of the Aiel who knew and could have told her about it.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, well it's not bad, Egwene :) . It is after all obvious that Graendal was waiting for a suitable opportunity. Though the smallness of the door is already confirmation.

 

For those wobbling, I'll just point out that this is the one theory that gives you a clear-cut suspect, others clearly put out of the way. I mean, for those who like answers.. :)

 

It's so obvious it was her. I can't believe so much info can be put into three pages, and all the other theories look everywhere but Rand's and Asmo's povs in Glowing Embers. When the idea is clear, almost all answers to questions come from those pages. Just thinking of the questions, and figuring out what could have happened, and why it would've happened... No twisting words, just sense.

 

I can't help but adding, that RJ is a genius for creating such a mystery. Everything is in plain sight, but hidden away so you don't notice it unless you start to wonder. But when you start to wonder, you're put on a path that gives you the answer, and you can't think of anyway it wouldn't work because it's all there in the chapter. And then, the answer really is obvious, because of the three possible suspects, Semirhage, Mesaana and Graendal, obviously it is Graendal who did it.

[Talya]

Egwene,

If RJ does scatter some more hints in the books I'm sure it will only add to the posts in this thread whilst we all argue over the interpretation at the hints.... :lol:

 

He's probably watching us all sit here and fight it out amused as we are all wrong.

[Graendals favourite]

I declare to have solved it. If it was possible, and I was to be revealed wrong, I will eat a hat. I'm freeeeee!!!!!!!!..... :D :D :D

[Guest cwestervelt]

Whatever Graendal knew was at least second hand' date=' and probably 3rd or 4th. She thought Rand had killed the messenger which was wrong. She is obviously started and worried by what Sammael is telling her. She thinks truce could be possible when the answer was no truce.[/quote']

 

2nd hand, yes, because I highly doubt she was in the room at the time. But your missing the point. It would hardly have been announced over the city that Sammael sent a messenger to Rand, yet Greandal still knew. Sammael's claim clearly shocked her because she was pretty certain as to what happenned, indicating that she does keep what she considers to be very close and accurate tabs on Rand. That she was wrong in that occasion is irrelevant. She expected to be right, and you can only expect to be right if you have had success in the past. Thus she could well have known that Rand was planning an attack on Caemlyn. There were certainly members of the Aiel who knew and could have told her about it

 

END OF QUOTE

 

No, I don't think I missed the point at all and the section I quoted is relevent. It is, after all the spot that you referred to when you said "Greandal also seems to do a large amount of information gathering around Rand, like when she knew exactly what that messenger from Sammael said to Rand and what his reply was." The fact that she was so wrong in your own example speeks highly towards Graendal not having accurate information. We already know that no one visits Rand without just about everyone of importance knowing in short order. All she really had was a rumor that "Lord Brend" (whom she knew to be Samael) had sent a messenger to Rand and the messenger died because of it. Her knowledge came at least 3rd hand, as she believed Rand killed the messenger. If she was told be anyone in the throne room she would have known otherwise. Also, had the source of her info been close enough to Rand, she would have known Rands's real answer. The source of the rumor she heard saw a messenger go in, and the messenger's body come out. She tried pulling a fast one by claiming knowledge she didn't have and Samael played her the fool. As a result, she ended up playing second fiddle to Sammael's schemes. Doesn't say much for Graendal's manipulative abilities. When she can't compell someone she falls flat.

 

I declare to have solved it. If it was possible' date=' and I was to be revealed wrong, I will eat a hat. I'm freeeeee!!!!!!!!..... :D :D :D

I'll try and find a nice big one for you to chew on. :P

[Graendals favourite]

I'll try and find a nice big one for you to chew on.

Thanks. But don't get it too soon, you might end up wearing it. :P

[Paradoxic]

Just a minor clarification:

 

Ta'avern-ness did not drive Graendal to Caemlyn. I am using the assumption that she was already in the palace for another reason (scouting/snooping/treasure hunting/just arriving/etc) and Asmodean has the worst luck to open the wrong door at the wrong time.

 

A question for those who support Lanfear: Why did she wish Asmodean dead? Why not Egwene or Aviendha? Why not Rand? I would think a wish of "kill his lovers" would be much more likely than "kill that Forsaken I gave him"... just wondering what you guys think on it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'll try and find a nice big one for you to chew on.

Thanks. But don't get it too soon' date=' you might end up wearing it. :P[/quote']

 

I might be a little short of a full deck, but not that bad. I'd at least wait until reading the book. :lol:

[Guest cwestervelt]

Just a minor clarification:

 

Ta'avern-ness did not drive Graendal to Caemlyn. I am using the assumption that she was already in the palace for another reason (scouting/snooping/treasure hunting/just arriving/etc) and Asmodean has the worst luck to open the wrong door at the wrong time.

 

A question for those who support Lanfear: Why did she wish Asmodean dead? Why not Egwene or Aviendha? Why not Rand? I would think a wish of "kill his lovers" would be much more likely than "kill that Forsaken I gave him"... just wondering what you guys think on it.

 

The point is that the wish won't necessarily be granted, or even interpreted, in the way the person making the wish expects. So, if Lanfear says she wants to kill Rand, rather than being put where she can strike directly at him, she could get put in a place where she can kill his teacher before he can teach Rand some knowledge critical to keeping him alive. The same would work for Moraine. A wish intended to see that Rand gets to TG, could result in her being given the opportunity to remove someone who was going to prove untrustworthy at a critical moment. The person makes the wish, the Finns decide what it means and how to fulfill it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The one real hint that Jordan has given us comes from reports of what he said at a couple of signings:

 

"He's roadkill."

"He tried to cross the tracks and didn't make it."

 

The implication is that his death was an unplanned occurrence incidental to something else.

 

The order of the narrative leads us to believe that he dies after Bashere arrives in the Throne Room.

 

But, what if his death occurs in a minor flashback coincident with Rand's interaction with Enaila and Somara, prior to Bashere walking in? Bashere does show up with two goblets and an unopened jar of wine. Where did he get those?

 

Min's viewing of Bashere shows him surrounded by a darkness. Is it possible that Bashere is someone other than who he appears to be? Someone Asmo would recognize?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bashere is a nice, twisted theory, but I have one problem with it. I recall RJ saying there was only one book that portrayed events out of full sequential order. And I don't think it was Fires of Heaven.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bashere's POV's make it pretty weak too.

 

However, nothing says he came to the palace alone. All we know is that he walked into the Throne Room alone.

 

Bashere, or one of his people, are the only "outsiders" we can definitely place in the palace at the time of the murder. Helping yourself to the Queen's wine just because there is nobody around to stop you isn't exactly a "Light" thing to do either.