one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not really. Her letter to Rand deprives her of motive. She doesn't approve' date=' but she does understand.

 

Lanfear is every bit as unlikely as Moiraine. And for all the same reasons. No real motive, and a less than improbable opportunity.

 

As far as Graendal goes, she didn't do it either. When Demandred reports to the DO, he reports that Graendal is the one who told him Moghedien is missing. Why Graendal? Jordan could have made it Demandred himself. Or, Semirhage. Or, Mesaana. Or, Sammael. He deliberately made it Graendal. Why?

 

To give her an alibi.

 

Thus we know beyond doubt in the Prologue to the very next book that it was neither Graendal nor Demandred.

 

Since we still haven't met either Semirhage or Mesaana as themselves, it can't be them. If it was a Forsaken it could only be Sammael. Every action we see Sammael ever take tells us that Sam does not move against Rand openly, or in person. He uses surrogates for all his offensive moves. Thus it can't be Sammael. He would not have been in Caemlyn himself.

 

That exhausts the Forsaken. So, it has to be someone else.[/quote']

 

Her letter to Rand doesn't deprive her of anything. The Finn's determine the interpretation of the wish and provide the meens to act. The chances of getting what you want or expect are slim.

 

From the Question of the Week.

But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for.

 

Implying that you want to eliminate a Foresaken close to Rand would qualify Asmodean in the eyes of the Finns. He's is Rand's teacher, but he is still considered a Forsaken. For that matter, he could fit as a target in just a "danger to the Dragon Reborn." The masses wouldn't be very happy with Rand if they found out he had been harbouring Asmodean. How many of his supporters would be very happy to hear that. Taim's bad enough.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well' date=' also keep in mind that his comment comes from 1998. Even just last year when I first got involved in this monster of a debate, Lanfear seemed to be the most popular of the suspects... that or maybe her followers were just the loudest.

 

The problem is that we have no idea what the nature of the debate was like back 1995-1998. We also don't know if the letters sent to RJ were really representative of the overall debate anyway.[/quote']

 

I know. That is why I was trying to feel out Graendal's popularity time wise. My knowledge of it only goes back a couple years, not to 1998.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The problem with Moiraine remains the massive chain of supposition necessary to support her as a suspect.

 

We have to suppose that she wished for something touching on Rand. We have to suppose that the Eelfinn interpreted that wish in such a way that it was necessary for her to personally kill Asmo. We have to suppose that the Eelfinn have some way to transport her to just the right location to ambush Asmo. We have to suppose that they then have a way to drag her back again.

 

All of those same suppositions hold for Lanfear, as well.

 

You might as well say the Creator did it. That's no more fantastic and unlikely than the long and winding series of suppositions needed to make it Moiraine.

 

You could just as easily pick any name out of a hat and assign an equally unlikely set of circumstances to support them. Moiraine or Lanfear either one are cases of reaching a conclusion and then making up data to support the conclusion, not examining the data and letting it lead you to the conclusion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Like we don't we have a longer list of supposition for everyone else? At least there is an explainable way to put them in Caemlyn based on what we know at the time of the killing.

[Guest Majsju]

Like we don't we have a longer list of supposition for everyone else? At least there is an explainable way to put them in Caemlyn based on what we know at the time of the killing.

 

That's just what it's not. There is nothing, absolutely nothing even hinting at the finns being able to reach our world any other way than through the doorways or the tower of Ghenjei.

 

And even less suggesting that the finns would be able to teleport someone back from our world into theirs.

[alCal]

Now, I haven't read all 26 pages, so please hit me if this has already been brought up.

At http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/main/theories.html I found a very interesting theory on Asmo's death.

 

It includeds a pair of servants in a corridor. Rand meets them when chasing Rahvin through the palace. The problem is that all the servants had fled long before that. I am too lazy to re-tell the intire theory, but the idea is something like this:

The servants were Graendal and Sammael, or at least one of them. They had motive to be there, since they were plotting to trick Rand into a trap. They/she should have helped Rahvin, but for some reason they/she didn't.

To look like servants makes it possible for them to move around without making people suspiscious, and the killer was simply hiding in the servants corridor when Asmo stepped in.

 

It think it convinced me.

Any ideas?

[Graendals favourite]

After writing my thing, I suppose I should not continue further, but I've seen Bob's argument about Graendal being preoccupied go not fully answered, so I'll comment.

 

Say I'm going to meet someone. We agree to meet next Thursday, at 14, at the Café Magnificient. I go there, probably I'll be myself 5 minutes late. However, at 15 past I'll wonder where the heck is he, but since we needed to meet, I go and order a coffee. However at half past, when I've drunk that coffee, I leave since the guy apparently is not coming. So the thing has taken no more than an hour of my day, and though annoying, it is not the only thing I would do that day.

 

The mention of Moghedien missing by Graendal, however, draws attention to her, because Moghedien also knew Rahvin had prepared for an attack. Unless Rahvin had told her, she had again eavesdropped on him telling another Forsaken, or she had been at taps with a Forsaken with whom Rahvin had prepared against a "sudden change of plans", such as Lanfear betraying the lot, there was no way Moghedien could have known that.

[Guest Egwene]

Paradoxic, I think looking more closely at tPoD is a very good suggestion. When I get a bit of spare time I will definately have a thorough re-read of that.

 

AlCal - yes, the two servant theory has been bashed about a fair bit early on. The Graendal supporters use it as a part of their campaign.

[Bob T Dwarf]

G's fave -

 

First we have to stipulate that the pre-arranged meeting time was at about the same time as Rand's attack on Caemlyn. Then, we have to decide that Graendal waited as short a time as you suppose. Then, we have to invent a reason for her to go to Caemlyn... the base of the most paranoid, least welcoming of the Forsaken. Then we have to invent a way for her to be in that hallway at that precise moment. Then we have to invent a way for her to react to Asmo faster than Asmo could react to her. Then we have to stipulate that she would only use balefire.

 

That's all just a little toooooooo inventive.

[Heron]

I believe it was mordin just because Asmodean says "You? No!" The you makes it sound like he is terrified of someone stronger than himself, he would have no respect for any other forsaken but mordin is another matter. but that is just my opinion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Can't be Moridin. He wasn't introduced at that point and Asmodean never met him. From RJ's comments it was intended that whoever did the deed should be identifiable simply from evidence within The Fires of Heaven. Even the most adept puzzle solver wouldn't say it should be obvious if the culprit hadn't been introduced.

[Graendals favourite]

No, Bob, you go wrong there, I'm not with these accidental meeting people, so I don't do those stipulations. I merely say that a meeting with Moghedien doesn't mean that Graendal couldn't do anything else that day, or that that meeting should take very long or be scheduled for the day. If they were to meet in T'a'r, it might even be natural to hold the meeting at night.

 

We didn't see the killer, or hear anyone's thoughts of why they'd go to Caemlyn, so of course we need to 'invent' the reason to try to explain why the killer was there. That we don't know the reason, however, does not stop the killer from being there. There's no reason why we should know the reason, and it isn't necessary to figure out the killer.

 

What I say is the murder had to be an ambush, and the only one who could have done it was Graendal. Thus she had to be in Caemlyn, and thus have a reason to be there. And all of this, because things have to make sense. If things don't make sense, then the murderer cannot be figured out. But this I wrote ten pages ago, I don't really plan to engage in the discussion now.

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK. In order to arrange an ambush, she would first need a motive. What's hers? Asmo is no threat to her. Then she needs a way to track Asmo. How does she know he's in Caemlyn? Then she needs the personal courage to risk running into the one person that frightens her beyond reason - Rand. Where does she come up with the intestinal fortitude for that? Then she needs a way to spy on Asmo, discern where he's headed and get there first. How'd she do that?

 

As you say, it all has to make sense.

[JRJ]

Before you can consider someone coming in from the outside, you have to identify a person with a strong motive, place them in the vicinity, and give them the means to accomplish the crime.

I don't think you can place Bashere's guards in the vicinity. The Trollocs and Fades were on the run, while Bashere looked very casual and relaxed. I very much doubt that Bashere was worried about meeting Trollocs or Fades in the Palace itself, particulary in the wine pantry it seems. So my impression leads me to believe the guards were rather in Caemlyn hunting Trollocs and Fades alongside the Aiel. At least, that is how I took the scene.

 

I do however think that someone was perhaps spying on Bashere. Someone who was already in Caemlyn or the Palace itself before Bashere entered. I could see someone stalking Bashere to the very door that Asmodean walked through.

 

Personally, I think it was Mazrim Taim.

 

P.S. Whoever said that Rand could have detected a male channeler are wrong. Both Asmodean and Taim have channeled around Rand without Rand noticing a thing. Asmodean with the floating goblet and Taim instaneously killing the Grayman in LOC.

[Marak]

Marak -

 

 

Pirates simply don't have enough room to swing a cutlass is a narrow hallway' date=' what with the big tricorn hat and parrot and all.[/quote']

 

Stabbing is a perfectly acceptable use of a cutlass. This puts pirates back in the running!

 

Chuck Norris won't work either. I mean, if you had Sheree J. Wilson in a miniskirt waiting back at the ranch, would you be in some dinky hallway in Caemlyn? I thought not.

 

You VASTLY underestimate Chuck Norris's abilities to be in two places at once.

 

 

That leaves only the good Doctor himself. He obviously positioned the Tardis very cleverly behind that door. Asmo stepped through, the Doctor closed the door and spirited him off to Beta Zangulon, where he was disposed of.

 

Glad I could clear all of that up.

 

I'm sorry, but that theory is hogwash! It simply doesn't work! As everyone knows, Beta Zangulon employs a detection system advanced enough to detect the TARDIS, and trap it there before the Doctor can escape. Furthermore, as we all know, the strike of the Time Ninjas was on that day, and the Doctor had to deal with that! They were blocking all time travel until he sorted out the issue where he had mindlessly sacrificed 500 of them to Daleks because he felt it was funny to watch.

 

And Bela would've noticed the good Doctor doing such a thing! And, as is widely known, Bela loathes Doctor Who, considering the fact he jilted her at the altar sixteen hundred years ago, when he had to save Delta Centauri B from an invasion of rabid, half-breed Daleks!

 

This theory does not at all stand up to my logical, inquisitive mind! Bela would've stopped him, however, in her rage at seeing him again, killed Asmodean, who haplessly happened upon them at the wrong time. She then ate him, to settle the stomach problems she had, that were caused by seeing her old flame again.

[Graendals favourite]

OK. In order to arrange an ambush, she would first need a motive. What's hers? Asmo is no threat to her. Then she needs a way to track Asmo. How does she know he's in Caemlyn? Then she needs the personal courage to risk running into the one person that frightens her beyond reason - Rand. Where does she come up with the intestinal fortitude for that? Then she needs a way to spy on Asmo, discern where he's headed and get there first. How'd she do that?

 

Ok, ok. Any Forsaken would have the motive to kill the renegade given the opportunity. Simple as that. Remove a traitor, and stop him teaching Rand, who had already killed Rahvin.

 

Graendal knew Asmo was in Caemlyn because she saw him there. Asmo wasn't masked.

 

She can track him the way anyone can track anyone, by following him. She most certainly doesn't need to go about unmasked, that would be insanity, since she did know Asmodean was a traitor.

 

She doesn't need to risk running into Rand, because she's masked. Later she did the same in Illian. And Rand wasn't behind that door because she Asmo had just left him behind.

 

She can spy on Asmo by looking at him. And she can get where he's going before him by Travelling. Which is by the way the only way, so everyone else is out but her, Mesaana and Semirhage. The confirmation for this, mind you, is in Glowing Embers, and most of it said already in this thread.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Killing a traitor who is no personal threat to her is a really weak motive.

 

You still haven't answered the question of how she knew Asmo was in Caemlyn. Rand skimmed to get there. You can't follow a skimmer unless you're close enough to see where he launches from and open your own skimming gateway in the same place immediately afterward. Then you arrive immediately after they do.

 

So now you've got to come up with a way for her to be in Cairhein when Rand skims out, close enough to skim after him, keeping him in sight, without being seen herself, arrive, hard on his heels and invisibly besides, avoid all the fighting and lightning, watch Asmo get killed, and then hang around on the off chance that he'll rise up again, decide not to kill him then and there when he does, and skulk around ( invisibly again ) trailing after him until she can divine where he's headed and get there first, just to finally kill him.

 

As I said... a little toooooooo inventive.

[Guest cwestervelt]

She can spy on Asmo by looking at him. And she can get where he's going before him by Travelling. Which is by the way the only way' date=' so everyone else is out but her, Mesaana and Semirhage. The confirmation for this, mind you, is in Glowing Embers, and most of it said already in this thread.[/quote']

 

Why not just open the bloody Gateway right on top of him then?

 

Travelling takes immense levels of the one Power and is easily detected. From the different things we have seen, it is the one that probably requires the most power to do in order to get something large enough to walk through. In Winter's Heart Rand Travel's to the school in Cairhien and is concerned that the Ashamen in the palace would have felt it. He isn't positive that the two buildings were far enough apart not to be detected. Aviendha was in the palace. If Travelling can be detected from outside, it can definitely be detected from inside. Other than Ishamael, the Foresaken don't use the True Power even before the restriction to Moridin only. None of them are crazy enough to unless extreme need is called for. They are also not apt to Travel in when they don't know what traps are left.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Marak -

 

A pirate still needs room to unship his cutlass. Very difficult to do on-the-instant, lurching down a narrow hallway on a pegleg, with a big tricorn hat and a parrot, with only one eye to see from. But, impaling a guy at the base of his skull with a hook... now that might work. However, it remains immaterial as I will show later.

 

You obviously do not appreciate the value of a woman like Sheree J. Wilson. She would not put up with anything less than all of her man. Chuck Norris knows this. Thus, he is not in any silly hallway in Caemlyn. This is why he has Sheree J. Wilson in a miniskirt waiting back at the ranch, and you nor I don't.

 

The dastardly plan of the Incredible Time Traveling Ninjas of Horus would have worked if Dr. Who were not who he is. But, as everyone knows, Dr. Who is invincible and omniscient. He deduced they were laying a trap, zipped in, grabbed Asmo, and zipped out again before they could get properly setup. Also being the genius he is, he dropped Asmo's body on Beta Zangulon 3500 years BEFORE the Beta Zanguloids invented their oh so devilish Time Trap, once again foiling the forces of Darkness everywhen.

 

There was, however, a very entertaining battle offstage, that we unfortunately did not get to see, when the Daleks and the Ninjas, both pursuing the good Doctor blundered into each other. The master Daleks came through later, swept up all the biggest bits, combined them and gave rise to the proto-Borg. Those are of no immediate interest, but will prove to be very important in a later Age.

[Guest Egwene]

JRJ ... When Asmo produces the goblet, Rand does notice but pretends he himself did it in order not to blow Asmo's cover. The moment the visitors are gone he gives him a pretty stern warning never to do that again.

 

Can't think of what happend in the other example you mentioned without checking books...

[Graendals favourite]

Bob, you misinterprit. I do not mean following Asmo from Cairhien to Caemlyn, I mean following Asmodean from the garden to that door.

 

Asmodean spent a good time in a place (the garden) that could be seen from many places, not hiding in any way (in fact playing music), around interesting people (Mat and Aviendha, Rand near). So it is plausible that anyone in Caemlyn going to get a closer look will indeed spot Asmodean. Thus, it makes sense she knew Asmodean was in Caemlyn.

 

Speculation: Whether Graendal knew beforehand that Asmo would be in Caemlyn, depends on whether she paid a visit to Cairhien earlier. However, she could well suspect he might be there, if she had info Rand was going there, as well she might through darkfriends in Caemlyn, or straight through Moghedien. This speculation however, is irrelevant, because that is what it is, and whatever her reasons to be in Caemlyn, and there was many that are possible, they are irrelevant to the case once she sees Asmodean.

 

Graendal is one of the most likely people to check out on Caemlyn, a Forsaken who has been involved in plans concerning Rand recently. Asmodean is a direct threat to Graendal, he is a Forsaken who is helping and teaching the enemy. Graendal is at war, and wants to become Nae'blis too, after the Dark One has prevailed.

 

 

cwestervelt, to the first I say it just seems Forsaken can defend themselves when directly attacked, and opening a gateway on someone is a direct attack. The ambush gives an advantage over just shooting from a rooftop.

 

True Power, we knew nothing of it even though Ishamael had used it. And he wasn't available, otherwise he'd be a suspect.

 

Takes a lot of Power. The point is, what is the point? There's two things here. I'll address them here both.

 

First from Graendal's point of view. She has just left Aviendha behind. This ambush is a quick thing to do. She doesn't need to fear Aviendha, she is from her perspective untrained, and far enough not to be able to cause trouble while Graendal removes herself from the murder scene.

 

Second, from Aviendha's point of view. She IS not much trained. Two or three months is it training with the Wise Ones. We don't know she would feel it, we don't know she didn't feel something. Even if she'd felt something, nothing would have screamed Graendal. So, there's nothing from Aviendha that says this thing didn't happen.

 

 

I'm going on much about what the issue is, because in speaking of this case it is necessary. Necessary, because this case has a fundamental difference to the previous theories (I don't know each and every one). Generally they've looked at what was before the killing, then see how one candidate could prevail against the others in getting behind that door.

 

That is not what I'm doing, though I need to see preferably many plausible ways for Graendal to end up behind that door. In looking at the murder scene, I've noticed it only makes sense if the murder knew Asmodean was coming alone, and also that he was coming. So, as it happens, only the available female Forsaken were capable of this. (Regardless of Rand and Aviendha, Asmodean would have felt a man channelling.) So I establish there's only three who could have done it, then looking at them, and noticing it is plausible for them that the thing happen, the other two are pushed out on more general grounds.

 

So I go backwards in time, not forwards, there lies the strength of the argument that Graendal likely had activity already in Cairhien, since her killing Asmodean has already been established. Hope this clears things up.

[Jedimuppet]

I happen to think Graendel was on her way to or from elsewhere, and that she happened on Asmo. She has enough motive to take out a disgraced forsaken. She toes the party line enough that the idea of currying DO favor would register with her.

 

It's a lot easier to believe than some random DF from saldea did it.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Jedimuppet, I'll repost here my reasons why I find the accidental encounter doesn't make sense. (It took time even for me to find the post, and I'm too lazy to rephrase.) This is the part where I can't state facts aside from that the door was random, and that Asmo PULLED open the door, took one step through it, saw and recognised the killer and stopped. But I think an ambush is the only way that the killing the way it was done makes sense.

 

It doesn't make sense for a forsaken to go about in the Palace unmasked. For a forsaken it doesn't make sense to kill Asmodean without knowing whether he's alone, let alone drop the mask when Asmodean enters. Even if a forsaken should be temporarily unmasked and surprised, it does not make sense for him or her to risk all his plans for a chancy thing of fighting Asmodean AND the Light knows who at the same time.

 

For non-channeller, it doesn't make sense to be able to kill asmodean in that configuration, being as surprised as Asmodean and not near enough for physical contact in that time.

 

For a channeller not able to mask, it is still not sensible to risk his or hers plans engaging in a fight with one of the Forsaken, instead of trying to flee.

[Jedimuppet]

Jedimuppet' date=' I'll repost here my reasons why I find the accidental encounter doesn't make sense. (It took time even for me to find the post, and I'm too lazy to rephrase.) This is the part where I can't state facts aside from that the door was random, and that Asmo PULLED open the door, took one step through it, saw and recognised the killer and stopped. But I think an ambush is the only way that the killing the way it was done makes sense.

 

[i']It doesn't make sense for a forsaken to go about in the Palace unmasked. For a forsaken it doesn't make sense to kill Asmodean without knowing whether he's alone, let alone drop the mask when Asmodean enters. Even if a forsaken should be temporarily unmasked and surprised, it does not make sense for him or her to risk all his plans for a chancy thing of fighting Asmodean AND the Light knows who at the same time.

 

For non-channeller, it doesn't make sense to be able to kill asmodean in that configuration, being as surprised as Asmodean and not near enough for physical contact in that time.

 

For a channeller not able to mask, it is still not sensible to risk his or hers plans engaging in a fight with one of the Forsaken, instead of trying to flee. [/i]

 

Your rationale strikes me as fairly sound. Without the random element, though, you have to figure out who may have known where Asmo was going to be and how. Was it a spy or something like that? Could it be something like the coin that Moraine gave the boys? It's a pretty weird place to run into somebody, even if they are looking for you.

J

[Graendals favourite]

It's just it, the garden was a good place to spot Asmodean even if they weren't looking for him. There were a number of other attractions there, Rand for example was near. The decision to try to kill Asmo and following can then be rationally reached, after seeing Rand is alive and his whereabouts.

 

I suspect Graendal has some long-term interest in Mat, but I can't really use it here, because in thinking it I use the murder as an indication of it (There's others, such as Noal, but nothing definitive).

 

I tend to think Graendal had her own spies, or paid her own visits to Rand's group before, but there's nothing to pinpoint exactly when and where. But seeing Asmo and then trying to kill him is good I think, and doesn't need much foreknowledge of her actions otherwise.

 

Reading the text, I think the door can be described as random, the only way to know Asmo'd take it was to see him approach it, it think. The same for him being alone.