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From the Shadows they come...


Orderofolde
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In the fall of the AOL the Forsaken did not operate as they do now, in secret. They were cruel and wicked, and beyond vile. They were the Generals of Armies of the Shadow, creators of the Shadowspawn who used Balefire against entire cities, and who liberally used the power to twist the minds of men. They cleverly stated, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" and had a laugh over it at the appearance of Rand. But always they have operated in the shadows that we have seen so far, a few bold moves such as Caemlyn with Rahvin, battles with Trollocs, but always things that the people have been able to shake their heads at in the telling and dismiss as a crossing of rumors. "There were Trollocs in the Borderlands" I've seen as the dismissal, not in Tear or the Two Rivers. The people of Randland still aren't entirely on board with the idea of Seanchan Invaders still but they are getting there.

 

I expect to see things drastically change, the Forsaken beginning to move openly, using the power to instill fear; Trollocs are on their way to attack Caemlyn and may have begun already as of the end of TOM. They are not just in the Borderlands any longer, they will no longer be supposed tales to frighten children with. They will strike openly and fast that rumor will be smashed aside as the nightmares take form all around them driving away hope and despair.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

The only trouble is that there are very few Forsaken left, and the people of Randland now have Rand to turn to and put their trust in. (They also have Egwene.) The forsaken could have moved openly to much greater effect if they had done so earlier.

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I agree to a point, but we've seen some things hinted at both from the AOL and recently with Sammael in Illian the whole city seemed on edge, with Rahvin in Caemlyn replacing the Queen's Guards with his henchmen and darkfriends, even the people in the city were . In the AOL entire cities went over to the Forsaken and the Shadow. We've seen new weaves and weaker modern Aes Sedai that the Forsaken Scorn best several of them, but they have a much broader knowledge of the power. They can also get Trollocs and Fades in through Waygates and via portal stones to really start the war off good, not attacks in the Two Rivers and Manor Houses. Saldea was a start, followed by the impending attack on Caemlyn. I think things are going to boil over now with mass fear and panic. Back during TGS we have people packing up their entire lives and moving north feeling the coming battles.

 

I suppose what I am saying is the time for subtle manipulations and jockeying for power with Kings and Queens and High Lord Proxies is done. Give me a Forsaken standing in the middle of a city, raise a wall of air, and start calling lightening and hundreds of other tricks like LTT used at the manor. Mass death for a few minutes will bend many a knee. I'm saying it's gonna get really interesting. RJ knew a lot about chaos and disorder, idiot officers not fit to lead men, and the "Darkfriends" moving among the forces of light supporting them by day and by night, lots of hand washing and wicked cackling. (The VC of Vietnam working on bases by day gathering intel and by night attacking. You never knew who was who.) I think that is one of the building blocks of his awesome series, the Darkfriends. One stone in a solid wall of good writing and awesome storytelling. Gleemen are up there too.

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In a way, that's also what Rand implied when he said that Darkfriends couldn't hide from him anymore, and that the time for games was over. I guess that also applies to the Forsaken.

 

Except, yes, who do we have left? Moridin. Demandred. That's it. Everybody else is dead or in a very bad situation (Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal). It doesn't mean those three can't do terrible things still. But whatever they do, it will probably be under Moridin's strict supervision.

 

And also, there's no more time to go destroying random cities. This is the last battle. Most of the things the Forsaken did during the War of the Power, they did over years and years. In all likelihood, they only have a few weeks left at best. Probably more like a few days. If they're not complete idiots, they're going to try to be as focused as they can. Which doesn't mean it can't be spectacular. But it won't be on such a large scale, I believe.

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Except, yes, who do we have left? Moridin. Demandred. That's it. Everybody else is dead or in a very bad situation (Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal). It doesn't mean those three can't do terrible things still. But whatever they do, it will probably be under Moridin's strict supervision.

 

Ones we know are alive:

 

Damandred

Graendal

Ishamael/Moridin

Lanfear/Cyndane

Moghedien

Mesaana (she is insane in the membrane, but Nyn has fixed some level of FUBAR brains, so why couldn't one of the foresaken)

 

Ones we know are dead:

 

Asmodean (because RJ said so)

Agnoir/Aran'gar - balefire

Be'lal - balefire

Rahvin - balefire

Semirhage - balefire

 

Ones we think are dead, but still could be alive:

 

Bathemel/Osangar - yes he was hit with enough of the one power to level a hill, but how do we know the DO didn't recapture his soul?

Sammael - Rand didn't see him die but assumes Mashadar got him. Again, does that really mean he is gone?

 

So there you have it. Six are alive even if one has a bad case of the mush brain. Five we know are dead for certain and two we assume are dead.

Edited by The 3 ta'veren
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In a way, that's also what Rand implied when he said that Darkfriends couldn't hide from him anymore, and that the time for games was over. I guess that also applies to the Forsaken.

 

Except, yes, who do we have left? Moridin. Demandred. That's it. Everybody else is dead or in a very bad situation (Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal). It doesn't mean those three can't do terrible things still. But whatever they do, it will probably be under Moridin's strict supervision.

 

And also, there's no more time to go destroying random cities. This is the last battle. Most of the things the Forsaken did during the War of the Power, they did over years and years. In all likelihood, they only have a few weeks left at best. Probably more like a few days. If they're not complete idiots, they're going to try to be as focused as they can. Which doesn't mean it can't be spectacular. But it won't be on such a large scale, I believe.

I don't think it will be exactly one battle, it will be fighting everywhere, in all the borderlands, in the southlands, Everywhere, and we have a lot of catching up to do with some important characters. We know that Caemlyn is burning and Elayne playing the scary Forsaken seems to indicate that someone was pulling the strings getting Caemlyn ready for the attack among the Forsaken. And I'm not evil, but I'd have done some recruiting getting some Darkfriend channelers over onto my side and ready for some big action. We've seen Taim doing it with his special group at the BT. We've seen other Forsaken doing it but only teaching the Black Ajah sisters only a trick or two, as they are very distrusting. I'd be surprised to see the Dark One NOT having been working in secret through or with Shaidar Haran in recruiting and raising new Forsaken, ready to unleash soon, especially with as much as all of them have been epic fails so far. Rand's lost a hand. That's it.

 

Also remember, the Forsaken killed so far are dead only in our version of Randland. There are some mirror worlds close to Randland that they are still alive and winning. Those Trollocs are coming from other portal worlds. So it's Rand's time to shift to another world and bring their gathering at the FOM or from the Borderlands. I think it would be totally awesome if Rand goes to one where Malkier still holds, but is without a king or heir and is given the chance to save their king again. Imagine what would happen if 50,000 Malkieri appeared at Tarwin's Gap to help Lan. That would totally blow our minds. After all, Nyneave saw herself with Lan in peaceful and beautiful Malkier and they had a child. It's possible, with other Novices never making it back through the rings during their Accepted testing, choosing those lives instead.

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I'd be surprised to see the Dark One NOT having been working in secret through or with Shaidar Haran in recruiting and raising new Forsaken, ready to unleash soon, especially with as much as all of them have been epic fails so far. Rand's lost a hand. That's it.

 

Seanchan lands in chaos, most of the food in the world gone from the weather, WT split with the BA pulling all the strings, Moridin controlling the Fisher to the point were he almost ended the world, Demy using balefire in some secret plot etc. As RJ said...

 

Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Also remember, the Forsaken killed so far are dead only in our version of Randland. There are some mirror worlds close to Randland that they are still alive and winning. Those Trollocs are coming from other portal worlds.

 

What makes you say this? Just because the Trollocs were moved via portal stones does not mean they cam from another world.

Edited by Suttree
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Except, yes, who do we have left? Moridin. Demandred. That's it. Everybody else is dead or in a very bad situation (Cyndane, Moghedien, Graendal). It doesn't mean those three can't do terrible things still. But whatever they do, it will probably be under Moridin's strict supervision.

 

Ones we know are alive:

 

Damandred

Graendal

Ishamael/Moridin

Lanfear/Cyndane

Moghedien

Mesaana (she is insane in the membrane, but Nyn has fixed some level of FUBAR brains, so why couldn't one of the foresaken)

 

Ones we know are dead:

 

Asmodean (because RJ said so)

Agnoir/Aran'gar - balefire

Be'lal - balefire

Rahvin - balefire

Semirhage - balefire

 

Ones we think are dead, but still could be alive:

 

Bathemel/Osangar - yes he was hit with enough of the one power to level a hill, but how do we know the DO didn't recapture his soul?

Sammael - Rand didn't see him die but assumes Mashadar got him. Again, does that really mean he is gone?

 

So there you have it. Six are alive even if one has a bad case of the mush brain. Five we know are dead for certain and two we assume are dead.

 

And in Egwene's dream in ToM3:

 

Thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tarlike sky.

 

One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground - but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all.

 

At the end of the quake, six towers remained, looming above her.

 

If these are a representation of the Forsaken, was the one that collapsed and recovered Mesaana?

 

Seems a tad unlikely to me, but even so..

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Well, the problem is that there are 6 Forsaken left:

 

Demandred

Graendal

Ishamael/Moridin

Lanfear/Cyndane

Moghedien

Mesaana

 

though there's a slight question mark over Balthamel / Osan'gar (as 'the 3 taveren' says, above). I'm inclined to wipe him off the list, also, because of this:

 

“Do you not feel gratitude?” the Myrddraal said. “You were dead, and are alive. Think of Rahvin, whose soul is beyond saving, beyond time. You have a chance to serve the Great Lord again, and absolve yourselves of your errors.”

 

Osan’gar hastened to assure it that he was grateful, that he wanted nothing more than to serve and gain absolution. Rahvin dead? What had happened? No matter; one fewer of the Chosen meant one more chance for true power when the Great Lord was free. It abraded, humbling himself before something that could be said to be as much his creation as the Trollocs, but he remembered death too clearly. He would grovel before a worm to avoid that again. Aran’gar was no less quick, he noted, for all the anger in her eyes. Clearly, she remembered too.

 

“Then it is time for you to go into the world once more in the service of the Great Lord,” Shaidar Haran said. “None but I and the Great Lord know you live. If you succeed, you will live forever and be raised above all others. If you fail . . . but you will not fail, will you?” The Halfman did smile then. It was like seeing death smile.

 

Doesn't sound as though he would get another chance at life.

 

So we're left with 6 FS, and at the end of Eg's dream there were 6 towers standing. Was the one which recovered, Moridin? Or Mesaana? Or - perhaps, as some have speculated elsewhere - was the DO able to grab Be'lal, and he is the sixth, not Mesaana? That would make Ishydin the strongest.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/63212-lets-talk-about-taim-baby/page__st__60__p__2038256

 

Or - has VoG 'turned' Ishydin back to the Light?

Edited by FarShainMael
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The only trouble is that there are very few Forsaken left, and the people of Randland now have Rand to turn to and put their trust in. (They also have Egwene.) The forsaken could have moved openly to much greater effect if they had done so earlier.

 

During the AoL the people had LTT and an AS group far superior to the pale imitation which Egwene leads today and still the Forsaken ran rampant. Not sure why these 2 factors will impede them in this age?

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I'd be surprised to see the Dark One NOT having been working in secret through or with Shaidar Haran in recruiting and raising new Forsaken, ready to unleash soon, especially with as much as all of them have been epic fails so far. Rand's lost a hand. That's it.

 

Seanchan lands in chaos, most of the food in the world gone from the weather, WT split with the BA pulling all the strings, Moridin controlling the Fisher to the point were he almost ended the world, Demy using balefire in some secret plot etc. As RJ said...

 

Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

 

Also remember, the Forsaken killed so far are dead only in our version of Randland. There are some mirror worlds close to Randland that they are still alive and winning. Those Trollocs are coming from other portal worlds.

 

What makes you say this? Just because the Trollocs were moved via portal stones does not mean they cam from another world.

Because it is possible. And because I've seen it suggested and accepted as to how the shadow suddenly has all these Trollocs to throw around when they didn't before in other threads. I think that at the time there was even a clever mention from Brandon when someone asked how so many Trollocs could come from the Blight or some such he responded with a question to the effect of "What makes you think they all came from there?" which prompted the spin off theories with the other Blight above Seanchan being a no-go as all the shadowspawn there were killed off. First the blight was retreating for the first time in memory, and then it was surging forward in leaps and bounds?

 

And the shadow winning? I don't agree. Apart from the doom and gloom, food rotting away and starvation and the panic that ensues from it, we've had upwards of 100,000 trollocs killed at Algarin's Manor

10,000 killed in the Two Rivers

General Kiergan put Seanchan foot to trolloc butt to tens of thousands more

Rand mopped it up at Maradon...

 

As for the Forsaken, there's six left that we know of, maybe 7 if Cyndane isn't Lanfear. Some have made convincing arguments that she's not and we've been given the RAFO.

 

Am I missing the great defeats that the forces of light are reeling from? We've had some lines of towers taken in the borderlands and Maradon trashed but at no shortage of cost to the trollocs and only an implied defeat, we have a red glow at Caemlyn, and we have Lan and his Malkieri gathered and ready for round two with it not looking good. Sure, the forces of light are disjointed, scattered, outnumbered, warring with each other in the case of the Seanchan, but we have Mat and Tuon still to play, his revamped crossbows, the dragons, the BT, lots of fun stuff yet to come. And even if Caemlyn falls, and the trollocs and Forsaken have some nice victories, it's not over until the fat lady sings, and she's not even made an appearance yet!

 

Rand is missing a hand but alive and better than ever, Moiraine is back, yes, there is chaos in Tarabon and Tanchico, but Arad Doman is getting it together and has its king again. I'd say things are so-so, still stacked against the forces of Light number wise and strength wise, some things are still up in the air right now.

Edited by Orderofolde
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Because it is possible. And because I've seen it suggested and accepted as to how the shadow suddenly has all these Trollocs to throw around when they didn't before in other threads. I think that at the time there was even a clever mention from Brandon when someone asked how so many Trollocs could come from the Blight or some such he responded with a question to the effect of "What makes you think they all came from there?" which prompted the spin off theories with the other Blight above Seanchan being a no-go as all the shadowspawn there were killed off. First the blight was retreating for the first time in memory, and then it was surging forward in leaps and bounds?

 

Ehhh was hoping you had some quotes or proof from the text to back your theory. Would have been an intriguing read. Also contrary to what you claim above there is no such interview where he says that and Brandon has discussed how there are actually vast numbers of Trollocs in the blight at the moment("orders of magnitudes more" or "an order of magnitude". So many that the blight could not sustain them over the long term.

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

Someone asked how the Trollocs are getting enough food in the Blight, they can't just eat each other right? Brandon said that the number of Trollocs in the Blight currently is unsutainable over a long period of time but we should remember that the Shadow does has access to channellers that can create gateways (implied: as a means to bring food TO the trollocs).

 

&

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Ayyad Azryelle reporting

Q: How can the Trollocs survive in the Blight (What do they eat?)

Brandon: [He] said the Trolloc population had grown so much, there was not enough food for them in the Blight. He sais that the Dark side did have gateways but would not say more.

 

As for the Forsaken, there's six left that we know of, maybe 7 if Cyndane isn't Lanfear. Some have made convincing arguments that she's not and we've been given the RAFO.

 

There have been zero convincing arguments made at this point in the series as to Cyndane not being Lanfear and no Felix Pax/Dida rantings don't count.

 

Am I missing the great defeats that the forces of light are reeling from? We've had some lines of towers taken in the borderlands and Maradon trashed but at no shortage of cost to the trollocs and only an implied defeat, we have a red glow at Caemlyn, and we have Lan and his Malkieri gathered and ready for round two with it not looking good. Sure, the forces of light are disjointed, scattered, outnumbered, warring with each other in the case of the Seanchan, but we have Mat and Tuon still to play, his revamped crossbows, the dragons, the BT, lots of fun stuff yet to come. And even if Caemlyn falls, and the trollocs and Forsaken have some nice victories, it's not over until the fat lady sings, and she's not even made an appearance yet!

 

Rand is missing a hand but alive and better than ever, Moiraine is back, yes, there is chaos in Tarabon and Tanchico, but Arad Doman is getting it together and has its king again. I'd say things are so-so, still stacked against the forces of Light number wise and strength wise, some things are still up in the air right now.

 

Great defeats? I mentioned some above but I think you are missing the point. This isn't some mass warfare battle of numbers were whoever kills the most wins. The shadow was seconds away from destroying the world when Rand was on DM in the VoG sequence. That is all Moridin/the shadows doing pushing him to a point where Dark Rand almost took over for good. All of that and per RJ there are still surprises the DO has up it's sleeve.

Edited by Suttree
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I don't think you can count killing Trollocs as a sign that the Light is winning. Given how they seem to be able to just breed indefinite numbers of them whenever they want, it seems like it's only a matter of time before the Light side is overwhelmed. And does nobody remember that all the watchtowers on the Blight border are falling one by one? And that people are starving everywhere because the crops are failing and food is rotting? Literally starving, as in everybody will be dead in a year. No, seriously, things are BAD at this point.

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Just to clear up a couple of minor matters and forestall ( I hope ) much confusion -

 

Aginor became Osan'gar became Dashiva.

 

Balthamel became Aran'gar became Halima.

 

Dashiva was killed by a quite ordinary but very large fireball created by Elza and the circle she led at the Cleansing. It destroyed a hilltop and Aginor along with it.

 

Halima was killed by Rand's massive balefire that took out Graendal's entire fortress.

 

There is no way Eval Ramman/Balthamel/Osan'gar/Halima can return. Far too much balefire involved in his/her death.

 

There is a very slight chance that Ishar Morrad Chuain/Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva could be brought back. It's not stretching too far to believe that Shaitan had his attention focused on Shadar Logoth that day and noticed his death the instant it occurred. The only question is whether the DO would choose to bring him back a second time.

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