Siege Weapons?!

[aznprince001]

Do the countried of Randland lay siege at all?! If so what technology do they use? I've never read about a trebuchet or a magonel anywhere? Is it all ladders and such?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lan mentions miners and siege engines after he euchred Mat into giving a military analysis of the plans to attack the Shaido around Cairhien. So the some of the concepts at least exist. I would suspect we haven't seen them since a large portion of the prominent characters in the story are channelers, many of great power (or should I say, Power) who can produce better effects more quickly. Why batter down a wall when you can open a gateway into the city's main square?

 

There is no mention of siege engines in either of the two non-channeling sieges we see pieces of, the siege of Caemlyn, and the siege of the Stone of Tear (which we really only hear about). So, using siege engines may not be common practice. Really, aside from the Stone, none of the fortifications described seem terribly formidable. Maybe the Fortress of Light at Amador, but again, damane with raken and to'raken make trebuchets sort of unnecessary.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I remember that during the Shaido siege of Cairhien, Rand mentions seeing a big crossbow shooting arrows the size of big spears (or something similar) - basically ballistae. It was a new thing though, and when Rand saw this he created the school at Cairhien with the woman who created the ballista as the head.

[Linither]

When Perrin was defending the Emonds Field there were two magonels, but since the Aes Sedai gave them the plans it might not be something common place.

[Guest Majsju]

A reason we haven't seen many siege weapons might be because we haven't seen that many battles involving the fortified cities where such weapons would be useful. Cairhien, yes, but siege weapons does not seem to work that well with the Aiel style of fighting, and with the lack of material in the Waste, they may not even know how to make them.

 

The siege of tar valon is of course impossible to use siege weapons in, since there is the small matter of a huge river being in the way. And Aes Sedai who would set any such things on fire if it had been possible to use.

 

The siege of Caemlyn, it seemed to be planned from quite early on to do what they finally did, have some of the mercenarys turn coat, and open the gates. Why waste time and effort building siege weapons then? Especially with Caemlyn being full of channelers not bound by the three Oaths, and thus able to blow anything nasty-looking to pieces without having to wait for an opportunity to do so without harming anyone.

 

The Seanchan uses damane as siege weapons, which is quite a bit more effective.

 

The rebels in cairhien were not in a position to actually attack the city, so no weapon buidling there of course.

 

And that's about it, when it comes to battles where siege weapons could have been useful. The troops Rand sent towards Illian were never supposed to reach the city.

And I exclude all battles with the trollocs on the attacking side, as I think they are too stupid to build siege weapons even with myrdraal telling them what to do.

[dimmu666]

i really think if seige womens come into play more in the last book, the warfare would get much more interesting and make better read. dude like if all you need to say is "a damane channelled and rolling earth and spitting fire demolished the city walls"...isn't that just too....

 

Yeah fo shure if Rand picks up callandor he can blow up an entire city, no need for seige of course. But again, that kind of battle scence might be cool but does nothing for us.

 

Obviously the only place where a proper seige can be carried out in the entire WoT world is Far Madding where no one can channel or channel to. I think battle at TG should have this unchannelable element. Otherwise we have no proper warfare, just freakin deathgates killing zillions of trollocpigs.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Another really good source for siege weapons is, of course, Mat and his guns (if he ever gets them). With the fighting tactics he uses for his troops and for the legion of the dragon, coupled with gunpowder and muskets (or whatever they end up being called), Mat's already a huge threat. Add in his ability to besiege cities with cannon and mortar and he's a real danger even to chanellers.

[aznprince001]

Just clearing up my point:

 

Im not talking about the book overall, but what about soverign countries going to war.

 

If Cairhien and Andor went to war, (probably like after TG) are we all gonna say they are gonna use damane and aes sedai?! nope. I'm very sure they White Tower wont get militarily invovled and Seanchan damane fight for the Empress.

 

So why no Siege Weapons?! What about trebuchets to take out large masses of soldiers? Why is it that no military generals or even scientific minds think:

 

"What is a more effective way of killing enemies without putting risks to my own army?"

 

or defensively:

 

"How do i stem an invading army?"

[algspkr]

In the Two Rivers Perrin had catapults. In Charain they had a ballista. There was mention of seige weapons and miners there too.

 

But the seige of Charain by the Aiel was the only instance where we had an appropriate spot for siege weapons, and the Aiel do not use them.

[dimmu666]

Yeah siege weapons would be awesome. Mat would probably be the first to think them up then ituralde, bryne, jagad, etc would probably follow up. Um where's Charain dude? is it some AoLs city in a mentioned in a book i missed? book 11.5?

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Um where's Charain dude? is it some AoLs city in a mentioned in a book i missed? book 11.5?

 

I think he meant Cairhien. That's what I understood.

[algspkr]

Um where's Charain dude? is it some AoLs city in a mentioned in a book i missed? book 11.5?

 

I think he meant Cairhien. That's what I understood.

Ya, sorry my spelling leaves something to be desired.

[Machin Shin]

who needs siege engines when u can cut a hole in the air and balefire ur enemy in the face.

[rd2000]

Siege weapons are meant for assaulting fortified positions. Not many of the countries in Randland have had long enough wars with each other to plan, build, and execute a siege against the other's towns.

The only place where a siege weapon would have been needed is the borderlands. Specifically, the forces of the DO against the forts and towns erected to gaurd against the blight. I have a feeling we might get to see some seige weapons used by the DO's forces in the final book.

[Thor]

Majsju I disagree about Tar Valon. Siege can easily cross the river, unless it is a big as the amazon, which i doubt. But Tar Valon is protected by the power so i don't think physical siege can damage it anyways.

[Kaznen]

Siege can easily cross the river, unless it is a big as the amazon, which i doubt. But Tar Valon is protected by the power so i don't think physical siege can damage it anyways.

 

I think it is that big. It's the largest river in Randland and the eastern artery for trade between Tear and the Borderlands.

 

But even the best catapults travel a thousand feet (just over 300 meters) on a good day. I think Mat mentioned the range of a "scorpion" as 300 paces.

 

Also the river ships that make the TV run stay in the middle of the river to avoid catapults.

 

And I think the city wall could withstand fire from catapults.

 

Dragons on the other hand....When the AS and Ogier built TV I don't think they imagined canons. And those could clear the river. If the SAS were to finally bend neck to Rand I could see Mat setting up Dragon to sink anything in the harbors that float and sink ships coming in.

 

The seige would end very soon.