Rand's new power and the Dreamworld

[earlyretirement]

Hi all,

 

Firstly, please forgive me if this has been discussed already, I did a search and couldn't find it.

 

A pet theory of mine is that the One Power and True Power have a lot to do with the dream world. I want to say that using the OP/TP is an instance or manifestation of the dream world in the real world, but I don't have evidence to back that up - other than these similarities -

 

In the Wolf Dream, Perrin's strength comes from his ability to exert his will on his surroundings - kinda like how Rand now exerts his will on his surrounding in the real world, for instance restoring grain that was rotten.

 

Additionally, dream masters can make others bend to their will, kinda like how Rand does.

 

Another striking similarity between the worlds is the comparison of Rand attempting to restore life to the girl in Tear and Perrin trying to restore life to Hopper - both came out with same results.

 

Another idea, having the OP/TP are kinda like having the abilities one would have in the dream world, but in the real world - granted, the OP/TP powers pale in comparison to the powers in the dream world, but perhaps the Ultimate Power would be to have the abilities of the dream world in the real world. Maybe that's the dark one's goal or temptation he places in front of his minions - ultimate power in the real world. Maybe the bore is a connection from the real world to the dream world which would wipe out all dissimilarities between the two? If that's the case, the dark one could kill everyone and they'd be dead for real.

 

Your ideas on the connection, or lack there of, between OP/TP, the dream world, the bore, and the dark one, are appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[mandersen]

Interesting ideas. The OP/TP and TAR connection seems like a stretch for me, but the Dragon's mysterious "one with the land" powers have never really been explained, and this seems as good a theory as any. Maybe, just for the dragon soul, to some degree the real world behaves like the dream. we have a few references to life being a dream. the Aiel for one. and i think the people who live with the sea folk and all kill themselves after the sphere melted said something similar. Also, what was it Herid Fel said? something about belief giving strength? that sounds like TAR to me. of course it could just mean that the real LB will be fought in TAR. or something else entirely. interesting idea though.

[Thrasymachus]

Only a small quibble:

 

Rand's new powers didn't turn rotten grain into good grain any more than it caused the rotten apples on the trees to turn into good ones. Rather, due to his Ta'veren twisting of chance, they only opened the bags with rotten grain. The grain in the other bags was always good, they just didn't bother to check it until Rand came back and made 'em.

[FarShainMael]

The apples weren't a result of ta'veren influence. What happened was this:

 

The trees had been growing, and 'looked fine', with leaves 'a little yellowed'. But:

 

During the night, every single one of them had shed their fruit. Tiny apples, barely as large as a man's thumb. Thousands of them. They'd shrivelled during the night, then fallen.

 

As Rand approaches:

 

Almen stood, raising a hand to shield his eyes. He took a long, deep breath, and smelled... apple blossom? He spun with a start.

 

The apple trees were flowering.

 

The failed crop melts into the ground and disappears. Rand arrives. He tells Almen to gather his crop:

 

The trees wre burgeoning with new, ripe red apples. The blossoms he'd seen earlier had fallen..

The apples seemed to shine. Not just dozens of them on each tree, but hundreds. More than a tree should hold, each one perfectly ripe.

 

There is more than twisting of chance at work here.

[MauricXe]

There is more than twisting of chance at work here.

 

 

Agreed.

 

It seemed that the land's decay was connected to Rand just as much as it's apparent recovery.

[Kahsm]

Yes... but pretty sure grain can't "grow" once it's harvested, even for the Dragon Reborn. The apples and the grain are two completely different situations.

[FarShainMael]

They are, true. I'm wondering if the grain turned good in Rand Sedai's presence as it had previously turned bad when Darth Rand was nearby. It was said that it had 'suddenly' gone bad, just as Nynaeve's tea suddenly went bad in the cup:

 

“I don't know anything!” the boy squeaked. “I just—”

 

“Stop,” Rand said softly. “Do you believe that I can kill you?”

 

The boy fell silent and—though Nynaeve wouldn't have thought it possible—his blue eyes opened wider.

 

“Do you believe that if I simply said the word,” Rand continued in his eerie, quiet voice,”your heart would stop beating? I am the Dragon Reborn. Do you believe that I can take your life, or your soul itself, if I so much as will it to happen?”

 

Nynaeve saw it again, the patina of darkness around Rand, that aura that she couldn't quite be certain was there. She raised her tea to her lips— and found that it had suddenly grown bitter and stale, as if it had been left to sit too long.

 

Arad Doman, as a kingdom, was finished. Like a table laden with too much weight, it would soon collapse. It is not my problem, Rand thought, not looking at the people. I did everything I could.

 

...

 

“My Lord Dragon,” {Iralin} said in a hushed voice, standing beside Rand's horse,”The food! It has spoiled.”

 

“What food?” Rand asked.

 

“All of it,” the man said, voice taut. “Every barrel, every sack, every bit in our stores and in the Sea Folk ships. My Lord! It's not just full of weevils. It's grown black and bitter, and it makes men sick to eat it!”

 

“All of it?” he repeated, shocked.

 

“Everything,” Iralin said softly. “Hundreds upon hundreds of barrels. It happened suddenly, in the blink of an eye. One moment, it was good, the next moment. . . . My Lord, so many people have come to the city because they heard we had food! Now we have nothing. What will we do?”

[OptimusPrime]

Only a small quibble:

 

Rand's new powers didn't turn rotten grain into good grain any more than it caused the rotten apples on the trees to turn into good ones. Rather, due to his Ta'veren twisting of chance, they only opened the bags with rotten grain. The grain in the other bags was always good, they just didn't bother to check it until Rand came back and made 'em.

 

Exactly

[b3arz3rg3r]

For me Rand's new power is the ultimate expression of being ta'veren. Ta'veren twist the pattern around themselves, however usually they don't have any direct control over the effect. Or perhaps the Aes Sedai just don't know that they do. Because Rand obviously does to some extent and has been for quite some time. Ever since he threatened Cadsuane with wishing her dead atleast. Same with Mat. If he puts his mind to it he can to some extent control his luck. The only one who as far as I know hasn't shown any concious control is Perrin, but he's the most humble of the three and is unlikely to even think of exerting his will against reality.

 

The power of the ta'veren seems similar to the power of the DO, however diametrically opposed. The DO is affecting the world by exerting his will against the Pattern same as the ta'veren do. That is why I think that aside from unravelling the Bore with the OP Rand and perhaps Mat and Perrin as well will have to put their will against the will of the DO to truly seal the DO again.

 

As for the apple and grain incidents. Just like the DO willed the apples to rot Rand willed them to bloom again. And the grain was I believe a case of Schrödinger's cat. As long as no one had opened the sacks they were both spoiled and good at the same time. When Rand came and opened them his presence is what decided that they were good. Had he been as he was before VoG they would most certainly all have been spoiled.

[OptimusPrime]

I dont even think its a newfound power, hes had it all along. Difference is, now he knows he can control it, or at the very least, influence it. He was one with the land from the moment he became Ta'veren IMO, but now he knows its directly connected to his thoughts. He showed he was well aware of it in TGS.

[FarShainMael]

I've just reached the 'grain' incident in ToM25 in my re-read, and I noticed a couple of things.

 

When Rand shows Iralin the good grain:

 

The barley looked as if it had just been harvested, each grain plump and full.

 

Odd, as it's been sitting in a sack for a fair while..

 

And again:

 

"Potatoes here," another soldier said from beside a barrel. "Look as good as any I've had. Better than most, actually. Not dried up, like you'd expect from winter leftovers."

 

Unexpectedly good quality, far better than from normal stores of this type.

[Carn Rhuarc]

earlyretirement, your theory is a good one, but one thing I'm having trouble with is how do you explain seeing weaves? I know that people who wield the OP can see weaves in the DW, but if the OP/TP works the same in both, how is the OP/TP a manifestation of the DW in Randland?

[jsbrads]

a new tactic for a fight in TAR, do exert will were needed, but to speed the channeling process, don't weave OP, but will it completely woven in front of you...

 

OP is not based on will [per se] you have to have the talent and you have to open your self to this source of power and you need to know the basic chemistry/physics of weaving to be able to create anything...

 

The pattern based interaction with Rand... I would lump the grain in with the apples (I originally thought the grain was different, but the freshness referenced above changed my mind) the act by DO and Darth Rand were an unraveling of the natural pattern, Rand's presence undid that, the threads were jerked back into place, as if he were a locus of tension in the pattern... not an active conscience force.

[b3arz3rg3r]

a new tactic for a fight in TAR, do exert will were needed, but to speed the channeling process, don't weave OP, but will it completely woven in front of you...

 

OP is not based on will [per se] you have to have the talent and you have to open your self to this source of power and you need to know the basic chemistry/physics of weaving to be able to create anything...

 

The pattern based interaction with Rand... I would lump the grain in with the apples (I originally thought the grain was different, but the freshness referenced above changed my mind) the act by DO and Darth Rand were an unraveling of the natural pattern, Rand's presence undid that, the threads were jerked back into place, as if he were a locus of tension in the pattern... not an active conscience force.

 

It did far more than just jerk them back into place. Apple trees usually don't bear that many or that perfect fruits and the grain isn't that perfect either. If he had just restored things as they would be without the DO the apple trees would just have carried a regular amount of apples with the usual imperfections.

[Wantanswers]

I think "the land" is a metaphor for life. The people of Bandar Eban started to die, when Rand was there ante epiphany and they revived after he returned post epiphany. And what about Almen Bunt:

The old pain in his hip was gone, and he felt as if he could run a dozen leagues.

(ToM, Apples First)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with FSM, I have no idea what Rand's power is, or whether or not it is new found (ie Drekka's argument) but it is definitely no simple ta'veren chance. it may be connected to ta'veren, but it is something far more than the "normal" ta'veren we see.

 

In regards to the grain, and Rand saying it was merely chance, I always thought it was Rand avoiding an explanation. Instead of telling a crazy story about him actually fixing the rotten grain, and sounding like a madman, or freaking the poor guy out, he chooses to explain it in a way that the guy can understand, and not get freaked out over.

 

If he said he healed the crop, or whatever, the people would panic. That the DO can make grain rot, and there is nothing anyone can do about it etc...

 

I think Rand was just being kind here, letting the guy think it was something relatively "normal" (at least compared to the other story) to help boost morale.

[MauricXe]

All of what you said here

 

I agree