Truth in Accepted Test?

[udpaco13]

Hey all,

 

I have am currently rereading TDR, and just got past the part where Egwene takes her test to be raised to Accepted. During the test several odd things happen, including her learning about the 13x13 way to convert someone to the shadow, and Balefire. Neither of these she could have had any knowledge about before entering. I have seen these discussed in depth in other posts before AMoL.

 

The part I found interesting is in the third stage of her test, when she is Amrilyn Seat. During this section she thinks of several things and she is not able to remember when/how they happened.

 

One oddity was she looks into the Mirror and sees the agelessness of her own face, but then later is vehement that she never held to Oath Rod. This could be because she is only a novice/accepted at the time, but when they have this visions they are not supposed to remember anything outside the vision.

 

The one I found the most interesting was when thinking about the Black Ajah, she thinks to herself that they have already been destroyed in the "Great Purge". I have only read AMoL once but I am pretty sure this is the exact term used by several people to describe when Egwene killed off all the Black Ajah she could find.

 

So there are three different times in her Test that Truth was reveled to her that she had no way of knowing at the time.

 

We know that she had the Dream Ring with her and it caused issues with her being able to leave. Is this what caused her to have glimpses of the future/unknown?

 

One of the Asedi said the only time they had seen Ter'angreal act similar to what happened was when two similar Ter's were used at the same time close to each other. This implies that the test for Accepted takes place in something similar to the Dream World, but we have not seen anyone just learn something completely new while in the Dream World. The closes we have seen would be when the wonder girls used "Need" to find the bowl, but that just showed them a location, it did not give them specific information.

 

The only other thing I could think of was she was able to see this stuff because she is a Dreamer, but Dreams are usually vauge, or symbolic.

 

Sorry I am just rambeling now. I just found this very interesting that she has memories in the "Future Test" of something she ends up doing in AMoL. Ideas?

[Mordaunt]

Gee you're doing well to have read aMoL already!

 

Re the other stuff, I'd put it down to her ability as a Dream and inherent Dreamwalking talent.

[udpaco13]

How about Nyn took her test and she met someone named Sheriam (or something like that) and she ended up being that super old lady they pick up later who is super strong in the power? Nyn is not a dreamer but she still saw something that seems somewhat prophetic.

[Mordaunt]

In the test Sharina was mentioned as Sharina Sedai, not Sharina Melloy (the name of the super old lady). I don't think it's been confirmed that they're the same person, though it is likely they are.

[gloweye]

I think that the ter'angreaal shows possible futures... in that case, its more like portal stones/mirror worlds than TAR. Just take a look at nyn's test...all of those could be a possible future.

[Random Man]

I've postulated before that the ter'angreal used for the Accepted testing effectively sends the user into a nightmare of their own making in Tel'aran'rhiod. This explains the widespread understanding that what a woman experiences within the Arches are always her own personal fears. The entrant's reality is largely created of her own consciousness, which explains things such as why Egwene saw herself with an ageless face in the mirror (she didn't know at the time that swearing on the Oath Rod caused the agelessness); however, being closely associated with the Dream World, it's not surprising that Egwene's abilities as a Dreamer allowed her "nightmare" to reflect certain things that were true. Nynaeve's ability to "listen to the wind" and her insistence in the later books that she "feels" a storm coming suggests she also might bear some small ability to feel out future events. It's not really Foretelling or Dreaming, but something largely unexplained that might have something to do with one and/or the other. This might have allowed her to see something "true" though nothing quite as solid as Egwene did: As far as we know, Nynaeve only got a name of someone we know to actually exist.

 

The resonance created between the twisted ring and the Arches, I think, was meant to clue us in on the fact the Arches were tied in to Tel'aran'rhiod, explaining Egwene's ability to catch glimpses of true events, and not that the twisted ring's presence caused anything odd that Egwene experienced.

[udpaco13]

One more question about this issue. During Egwene's test she sees Eladia is Black Ajah. Could this be just part of "her own fears", or does this show that Eladia is actually black, even though most people just seem to be leaning toward her just being dumb?

[FarShainMael]

In the test Sharina was mentioned as Sharina Sedai, not Sharina Melloy (the name of the super old lady). I don't think it's been confirmed that they're the same person, though it is likely they are.

 

Well, it's not been confirmed AFAIK; but there's a very interesting exchange in Winters Heart:

 

“There’s one new novice I’d like you to meet, Nynaeve. Sharina Melloy. A grandmother. I think you’ll agree she’s a remarkable woman.”

 

Nynaeve’s chair disappeared completely, and she hit the floor with an audible smack. She hardly seemed to notice, sitting there and staring at Egwene in astonishment. “Sharina Melloy?” she said in a shaky voice. “She’s a novice?” Her dress was a style Elayne had never seen before, with flowing sleeves and a deeply scooped neck worked with flowers in embroidery and seed pearls. Her hair flowed to her waist, held by a cap of moonstones and sapphires on golden wires no thicker than threads. And there was a plain golden band on her left forefinger. Only the ki’sain and her Great Serpent ring remained the same.

 

Egwene blinked. “You know the name?”

 

Getting to her feet, Nynaeve stared at her dress. She held up her left hand and touched the plain gold ring almost hesitantly. Strangely, she left everything as it was. “It might not be the same woman,” she muttered. “It couldn’t be!” Making another chair like Egwene’s, she frowned at it as if commanding it to stay, but it still had a high back and carving by the time she sat. “There was a Sharina Melloy . . . It was during my test for Accepted,” she said in a rush, “I don’t have to talk about that; it’s the rule!”

[David Selig]

One more question about this issue. During Egwene's test she sees Eladia is Black Ajah. Could this be just part of "her own fears", or does this show that Eladia is actually black, even though most people just seem to be leaning toward her just being dumb?

Elaida is definitely not Black, that's made very clear both in her PoV and in Alviarin's.

[udpaco13]

Elaida is definitely not Black, that's made very clear both in her PoV and in Alviarin's.

 

If this is True (which I am not 100% convinced yet) then this would indicate there was false information presented in the test for Accepted. As people stated above, these tests may be other possible futures. Does this mean that Eladia was black in other possible futures? That seems pretty odd. Integar was black in all of his possible futures. Rand or Matt never turned to the Shadow in any of their futures that I can recall. If it is at all possible, how do we know that Eladia isn't black currently, or will become black in the future (maybe after being abused by the Seachean for half a book, and she sees the black as a way out)?

 

The other possibility is this is not true at all, and it is the only thing that is factually incorrect in any of the Accepted Test we have seen yet. Everything else is confirmed as true (Balefire, 13x13) or could be true had different choices been made (Egwene having a kid with Rand, Rand going mad with the taint).

[Eqwina]

The Arches show you your fears, your fears about your past, your present, your future. Much as previously discussed it may be that they are linked to the World of Dreams, but obviously they do not show you what will happen only possibilities, but those different possibilities are tainted by their worst fears.

 

So, I think it makes sense that Egwene would see Eladia as BA, as that is a fear she has.

 

We know from Alviarian's POV that Eladia is not Black Ajah. Remember that Alviarian is the Head of the Black Ajah and sits on the Supreme Council which means that she knows all members of the Black Ajah by name.

[Pilz]

A foreshadowed epiphony coming for Egwene?

 

I just re-read (listened to) TDR also and had this thought when Egwene finished her Accepted test. When she came out of the ter'angreal, she was crying and saying something like: Will I keep abandoning him when he needs my help?

 

Of course she is referring to Rand. Yet here we have a showdown - culminating at the FoM - where she has opposed Rand. Will she have an epiphany at the beginning of aMoL (due to memories of her accepted test) and decide to support him?

 

Also, in the Gathering Storm, when Egwene becomes Amyrlin, she sees the hole in the white tower from the Seanchan. She mentions something similar to having to clear it out before rebuilding. This seems to be another indication that she will ultimately side with Rand in terms of breaking the seals.

[Orderofolde]

Hey all,

 

I have am currently rereading TDR, and just got past the part where Egwene takes her test to be raised to Accepted. During the test several odd things happen, including her learning about the 13x13 way to convert someone to the shadow, and Balefire. Neither of these she could have had any knowledge about before entering. I have seen these discussed in depth in other posts before AMoL.

 

The part I found interesting is in the third stage of her test, when she is Amrilyn Seat. During this section she thinks of several things and she is not able to remember when/how they happened.

 

One oddity was she looks into the Mirror and sees the agelessness of her own face, but then later is vehement that she never held to Oath Rod. This could be because she is only a novice/accepted at the time, but when they have this visions they are not supposed to remember anything outside the vision.

 

The one I found the most interesting was when thinking about the Black Ajah, she thinks to herself that they have already been destroyed in the "Great Purge". I have only read AMoL once but I am pretty sure this is the exact term used by several people to describe when Egwene killed off all the Black Ajah she could find.

 

So there are three different times in her Test that Truth was reveled to her that she had no way of knowing at the time.

 

We know that she had the Dream Ring with her and it caused issues with her being able to leave. Is this what caused her to have glimpses of the future/unknown?

 

One of the Asedi said the only time they had seen Ter'angreal act similar to what happened was when two similar Ter's were used at the same time close to each other. This implies that the test for Accepted takes place in something similar to the Dream World, but we have not seen anyone just learn something completely new while in the Dream World. The closes we have seen would be when the wonder girls used "Need" to find the bowl, but that just showed them a location, it did not give them specific information.

 

The only other thing I could think of was she was able to see this stuff because she is a Dreamer, but Dreams are usually vauge, or symbolic.

 

Sorry I am just rambeling now. I just found this very interesting that she has memories in the "Future Test" of something she ends up doing in AMoL. Ideas?

It isn't quite the dream world. If you remember, there is a trip through the first time for what was, then for what is, and then a third trip through for what will be (Past, Present, Future) Mirror Worlds run exactly in time with Randland, a little faster than Randland, and a little behind Randland. (This is how Rand, Loial, and Huran could get ahead of Fain in TGH, and how Rand and Verin got to Toman Head so late.) We also see glimmers when Rand tries to bring Verin directly to Toman Head and everyone lives a thousand lives (or variations of the same life) through the mirror worlds. This isn't so much T'AR but the Mirror Worlds at work. Some Novices never come out of the rings during the testing because the lives of the past, present, or future are more appealing than what being an Aes Sedai would be to them. I believe that it is as RJ said, that Randland as we know it is the True World, and based off that, when one from the True World travels to a mirror world, their presence overrides that of their other self if their other self is still alive. And not everything happened as it does in the True World which is why Nyneave saw the seven towers of Malkier unbroken, or perhaps it was after the last battle and the power was used to rebuild them and some serious singing by the tinkers restored all the trees and grass from the Blight. This will have a large part to play in the last book, and these scenes are going to be great.

[Luckers]

It definately has something to do with TAR, as the resonance effect only occurs between ter'angreal that do similar things.

[Dakota]

I would think that the testing might have a grain or truth in there, but in large part is drawn from the user's knowledge and dread. As others mentioned, Egwyne saw herself as ageless because she didn't know that the agelessness was caused by the oath rod.

 

Besides, if the AS thought that the testing reflected truth, well, I doubt that Egwyne was the first to see someone she didn't like in there as Black Ajah. If the AS thought that everything in there reflected some truth, I would think that a lot more sisters would have been put to the question over the years for suspicion of being BA. Or having the Red Ajah be deployed to the testee's childhood home because a man she saw in there could channel, or other such things of that nature. It wouldn't be so much 'What you saw in there is for you and for you alone', as much as 'Keep what you saw to yourself, but if you saw something that could harm the tower or the Light, let us know."