Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[MasterAblar]

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place? The only way a fight between them could happen, is if they go after him. Would they really plan to go into a fight where they would need a stroke of luck to win in the first place?

Of course they would. All of the Supergirls have a lot more bravery than common sense. When has any of the Supergirls (or any main character in this series for that matter) ever thought about anything important "this is too dangerous" and decided not to do it?

 

There's reckless bravery, and there's pure stupidity. You don't willingly go into a fight which you have very little chance of winning unless you absolutely must. It would be far smarter of her to ask for help from someone who could even the odds a little. Such as Rand.

Of course that sounds logical and obvious, but in WoT woman asking a man for help is the very last resort, usually they prefer facing a Forsaken on their own instead. See Egwene's reaction when Nynaeve suggested asking Rand to help dealing with Mesaana for example.

 

I am losing track of what exactly we are arguing here. My point the Supergirls could've beaten Rahvin without Rand's help. Wasn't that how the whole argument started many pages ago? Whether they would've asked Rand for help with is a different issue.

 

I think the original argument was when Piotrek said that Elayne should be more thankfull to Rand for killing Rahvin because he was the only one who could do it. And then people argued about whether Elayne and the supergirls could or could not do it. I argued that I think it would be nearly impossible unless they killed him without him being able to react. But since, as you pointed out, the book allows pretty much anyone to beat anyone if it's neccesary (like rand winning or surviving fights in the early books), I'm saying that they don't know they have that plot protection, and therefore would not go into that fight in the first place, because that would be plain stupidity, as they are very unlikely to win. And I don't consider them to be plain stupid.

 

Which is how I got back to them having to ask Rand for help, because that's the only sensible thing to do if they want to have a good chance of winning the fight, which is a fight they would never go into without knowing how to fight a male channeller. If it was Semirhage they were going to confront, I would say it's recklessly brave. However, if it's Rahvin, then it's just stupid.

 

As for Egwene's reaction, I thought it was a pretty foolish and arrogant reaction, but it seemed to be more a matter of pride as Aes Sedai rather than not wanting to ask a man for help. Not to mention that they would be facing Mesaana in TAR where they are perfectly capable of fighting her, which is not the case when fighting Rahvin without knowledge of how to cut his weaves, and therefore defend against him. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't have at least asked Rand for information on Mesaana, but then again Rand isn't really her favorite person at the moment. Which of course she should be able to get past considering how important this issue is. Whatever. I can't say Egwene was my favorite person in ToM, but that's a completely different subject.

[Eht Slat Meit]

As for Egwene's reaction, I thought it was a pretty foolish and arrogant reaction, but it seemed to be more a matter of pride as Aes Sedai rather than not wanting to ask a man for help. Not to mention that they would be facing Mesaana in TAR where they are perfectly capable of fighting her, which is not the case when fighting Rahvin without knowledge of how to cut his weaves, and therefore defend against him.

 

Honestly, even they had known about Rand's integration with LTT (they didn't), Dragon or not, -Rand- is the last person to ask for advice on fighting a female Forsaken. The only time he's actually attacked a female channeler was when he was playing Darth Rand and weaving balefire from ambush, and exactly what his latest principles regarding battling women since going Zen Rand are still in question.

 

I don't see any hypothetical scenario of the Aes Sedai battling Rahvin ending well. Not because of incompetence, but simply because of the schisms that exist between male and female channelers, and the natural tilt of the story. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and even coupled with Mat's ta'veren nature, and still got people killed.

 

Story-wise, at the point in which TFoH took place, Travelling hadn't even been rediscovered (?) and even had Elayne learned Rahvin was ruling Andor, the chances of her getting the support of the WT would be minimal. She'd have come across as a raving madwoman, likely taken into protective custody by the WT at Alviarin's advice and assassinated by the Black Ajah, who at that time were still running rampant under the charge of Mesaana.

 

Or she could have gone to Rand, taken his worthless advice (he was still radically protective of women), and then walked straight into a deathtrap with Nynaeve and a captive Forsaken ready to stab both women in the back.

 

Or she could have got Rand and the Aiel and Mat and done exactly the same thing that already transpired in the books.

 

There's really not a lot of win in this scenario. Even Rand took a beating.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Story-wise, at the point in which TFoH took place, Travelling hadn't even been rediscovered (?)

 

I think that's correct, excepting Aviendha's jaunt to Seanchan, and she can't remember how she did it. Rand rediscovers it during the assault on Rahvin, and Egwene figures it out after being summoned to Salidar and putting it together based on similarities with entering T'A'R in the flesh.

[MasterAblar]

Honestly, even they had known about Rand's integration with LTT (they didn't), Dragon or not, -Rand- is the last person to ask for advice on fighting a female Forsaken. The only time he's actually attacked a female channeler was when he was playing Darth Rand and weaving balefire from ambush, and exactly what his latest principles regarding battling women since going Zen Rand are still in question.

 

Rand told Egwene he remembered LTT's life when he met her in ToM. If she doesn't believe him that's her problem. I don't see how his balefiring of Greandal is a point against him. As far as anyone knows that worked out perfectly. In fact it shows precisely why Egwene could use Rand's help with Mesaana. He beat Greandal, as far as they know, purely through his knowledge of her, although the CK helped too. Even if Egwene already knew at the time that they would fight her in TAR, where Rand would probably be less capable of helping, it doesn't stop him from having information that might be very useful. In any case Egwene clearly refuses to ask Rand's help simply because as she says "This is a matter of the Tower". Which I find plain stupid. Rahvin a matter of Andor because that's where he was? Was Sammael a matter only for Illian? Graendal for Arad Doman? Fighting and killing the Forsaken is nearly Rand's job description. Egwene won't ask for his help simply because she's too proud to do so. She doesn't want the Aes Sedai to be seen depending on the DR, and I understand that, but this is matter that is simply too important.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Honestly, even they had known about Rand's integration with LTT (they didn't), Dragon or not, -Rand- is the last person to ask for advice on fighting a female Forsaken. The only time he's actually attacked a female channeler was when he was playing Darth Rand and weaving balefire from ambush, and exactly what his latest principles regarding battling women since going Zen Rand are still in question.

 

Rand told Egwene he remembered LTT's life when he met her in ToM. If she doesn't believe him that's her problem.

 

Too be fair to Egwene (and don't get me wrong, I love a good Egwene hating session) but really, he told her once, when last information she heard was him nearly completely insane and balefiring the shit out of everyone. I mean, he is known to be susceptible to madness, it ins't really too strange that she was weary in trusting him. If i have to be totally honest about it, I think Egwene did the sensible thing, as much as I hate to admit.

[Mr Ares]

As to your last point, yes, I think Rand can overcome obstacles no other character can. You know, it wasn't me who decided to write a story about a messiah, where destiny and prophecy play such a huge role. That's the way the story is written, he is special and therefore capable of special feats.

While he is capable of special feats, it should be noted that those relate to him being one with the land. Unless he plans to attack Rahvin with several tons of unexpectedly ripened apples I don't think it really applies. Other than that, he's a ta'veren and a channeler, but with no abilities beyond those which could be found in any ta'veren and channeler. In other words, while Rand can overcome some obstacles that no-one else could (such as the starvation in AD) Rahvin (and the Chosen in general) is not one of those obstacles.

 

I think you're understanding it too narrowly.For example, his fight with Ishamael in the sky over Falme had nothing to do with Fisher King, but a lot to do with his metaphysical status as Light's champion.

 

What's more, being ta'veren is not a common thing. The fact that both Mat and Perrin shared this feature with him was an anomaly in itself. Three ta'veren together are quite exceptional, even one ta'veren is exceptional . Moreover, Rand is still the strongest of the three. As you've noted yourself, he needed a lot of his luck to survive the fights. The story has no mechanics to explain similar fighting luck for e.g. Elayne, though I admit it hasn't stopped RJ/BS from writing several scenes as though the Supergirls were in fact ta'veren.

What happened at Falme was not a power of Rand's. "Being one with the land" is the one power Rand has that is his alone, as opposed to one he has but so do other people. Being shown above Falme was about the Wheel needing him to be the Dragon. Also, people get lucky. You don't need a story mechanic to explain that unless they are getting ridiculously lucky. Supergirls taking on Rahvin? Doesn't need it - good planning can make up a lot of the gap in luck.

 

 

Logically, Rand should not have won. He did anyway. In fact, the same is true of his fights against Aginor, all three against Ishy, Be'lal, Lanfear and Rahvin. The Supergirls would be at far less of a disadvantage than Rand was in many of his fights - that's the point I'm making. They have a lot more going for them than he did. The Supergirls defeating Rahvin was far, far less unlikely than some of Rand's fights. Yes, they could have failed. They could have taken heavy casualties. The same is true of Rand - he could have lost, he could have had all the people with him die. In fact, without Nynaeve's help that's exactly what would have happened. I don't think it really stretches suspension of disbelief beyond what the series normally demands to think that they could have done the job with no major losses. A measure of gratitude was deserved, no doubt - for Rand doing her a favour, if nothing else - but it was not something she could not have done herself.

 

If the story wanted them to beat him, a way would probably be found. After all, like you said Rand should have lost the fights in the early books. He got lucky, there was always a detail that allowed him to win (Ishamael not wanting to kill him, Ishamael deciding to fight with a stick, Ishamael fighting him when he has Callandor, Moiraine, and again Moiraine). However, not only does he have taveren to justify that luck, or else the Forsaken's arrogance, he also didn't initiate those battles. The first time he attacks a Forsaken, instead of the other way around, is when he goes after Rahvin.

Asmo. But he still went into a battle against an opponent who was significantly more knowledgeable than him, and without LTT's knowledge. He still won. So Rand can go and attack against an opponent with numerous advantages but the girls can't?

The story could find a way to make them win against Rahvin, but could it find a way to make them think that they can beat him in the first place?

Numbers, training, preparation, planning - all advantages that Rand lacks, for the most part. They can win without a miracle.

 

There's relatively little the girls have done by instinct.

So? They've had more formal training than him. He just worked stuff out, without LTT, because that's the only way he could really learn before Asmo. Being forced to learn by instinct is not ideal, but Rand had no choice. Doesn't mean that the girls would have been less adept at it, only that they had a better method of learning things. Bear in mind that Healing and balefire were a couple more things they learnt this way, as well. In short, when they had to learn that way they did admirably, but they more often had formal tuition to learn things, so it is through lack of opportunity, not lack of ability, that has caused them to learn less than Rand via instinct.

 

The girls can defend against his weaves, by using shields. What they can't do is cut his weaves, because they don't know where his are (nor does he knows where theirs are - the difference is that he will have a better knowledge of where they are likely to be, so can make a more informed guess when he cuts). If they see Rahvin can cut their weaves, I hardly think it's beyond them to try and cut through his.

 

Shields of what?

...The Power. Is the notion of channelers using the power to shield themselves against attacks from the Power so out there?

They don't know how to cut his weaves because they don't know how to cut, not because they don't know where they are

Your basis for this? And as you point out, Rand was in the same situation (not knowing how to do stuff), but faced with no back up in case he died, no one to take the pressure off him.

 

I don't see why the commoners should be incapable of organising a rebellion. They might decide they don't care for the time being, of course. But when the drought ends, and Rand is still in power, they might decide to do something.

 

If it was limited to one city, it wouldn't be a problem. But if you're talking about a nation wide rebellion, then it's going to need some measure of organisation and leadership. I don't know if commoners, who are unlikely to know much outside of their local village, would be capable of doing that effectively. Especially against someone with the ressources that Rand has.

Or you just need a bunch of smaller rebellions.

 

The heads on the tree are from runaways, for the most part. A group of Asha'man going rogue and trying to stop you from massacring their countrymen is a different beast to one or two slipping away in the night because they can't hack it. Not putting those who are likely to rebel on rebel-crushing duties doesn't help when all your men are still based in the same place - if word gets back about what's going on, expect at least some dissent. And while mass executions are not Rand's style, generally, it does rather limit what the Asha'man can do to help crush a rebellion if you won't turn them loose on the rebels. Some information gathering, perhaps?

 

Runaways or rebels, they're all traitors in the BT it seems. The certainly would end up the same. Maybe something like that could happen, but I haven't seen anything from the Ashaman to make me think it could. Granted, we haven't seen much of them, but that's just how I feel.

The BT would try to make things end up the same. A cohesive group of trained channelers fighting back against you is a different proposition to individual runaways.

 

Well, if come TG he has no effective control of the country, then there is precious little point in him being there. He doesn't have the country, so he cannot use those people as soldiers at TG.

 

Once TG comes around, the people won't have a choice but to fight.

Of course they'll have a choice. The Trollocs won't be everywhere. I'm sure a lot of people will sit out TG (not everyone will be capable of fighting, for one thing).

 

The problem is not that there is no difference in their battle skills, it is that the difference is not insurmountable and that Rand has won battles against worse odds. I'm not saying this would be a walk in the park, I'm saying that it is not impossible, nor even so hard as some like to make out. Rand fought Ishy in T'a'r with no experience of the Dream World. he won. Egwene has experience of T'a'r, and back up, yet would not be able to win? Really? Rand fought Ishamael with no knowledge of the Power back in EotW, and he won. Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne and maybe even Aviendha as well, all channelers with knowledge of the OP, cannot fight Rahvin? Looked at objectively, there is no real reason why Rand should have won all his fights but the girls should be incapable of doing the same.

 

Rand got lucky, and he had LTT, that's what allowed him to win (or at least survive until someone helped him out).

He didn't have LTT for a number of those fights. LTT first manifested in TSR, and didn't really play a significant role in his Chosen fights until ACoS (LTT knowledge helping him find Sammael).

 

I don't think "they wouldn't decide to attack Rahvin because Rand wasn't in the habit of attacking Chosen" is a compelling argument. Just because he was attacked, not the attacker doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. And sure, he's ta'veren. But so what? That's something that helped, not something that he relied on for victory. The girls have a number of advantages over Rand alone - with sufficient planning, they should have been able to deal with Rahvin. There are many ways to go about doing it. And better preparation means a reduced reliance on luck.

 

In any case Egwene clearly refuses to ask Rand's help simply because as she says "This is a matter of the Tower". Which I find plain stupid. Rahvin a matter of Andor because that's where he was? Was Sammael a matter only for Illian? Graendal for Arad Doman? Fighting and killing the Forsaken is nearly Rand's job description. Egwene won't ask for his help simply because she's too proud to do so. She doesn't want the Aes Sedai to be seen depending on the DR, and I understand that, but this is matter that is simply too important.

Dealing with problem channelers is part of the AS job description (taking down male channelers, and any non-AS organisation than reared its head, and making sure that any wilders who might give the impression of being AS got slapped down). While taking on a Chosen is a bit harder the principle is the same. This is a problem in the WT and for the WT. The Chosen elsewhere are problems that the WT should deal with if no-one else can, but if they cannot sort out the one in their midst then they'll really do themselves no favours.

[Eht Slat Meit]

reference

 

Note that we're talking about the Rahvin Hypothetical here, and I'm only using this example to highlight why Rand is the worst person to ask any kind of advice on fighting a female. This tangent, while relevant as to whether she should be asking him for advice on Mesaana, really doesn't offer much other than that highlight for Rahvin.

 

Rand told Egwene he remembered LTT's life when he met her in ToM. If she doesn't believe him that's her problem.

 

That's right. It IS her problem, because according to herself, his words were those of a madman, were coupled with zero explanation. Further, the last she'd heard of him, he was committing an atrocity pre-VoG against a civilian population. It is highly in question whether Rand could offer her any reasonable advice on the matter, due to the fact the only fem-Forsaken he's killed was part of an atrocity. Is it reasonable to expect Egwene to emulate his behavior? Should she be willing to destroy the Tower and every woman in it, or the population place Mesaana might flee to? Mass murder in the name of a greater good? Darth Sedai, the new counterpart to the monstrosity the male channelers became under the influence of the taint?

 

I don't see how his balefiring of Greandal is a point against him.

 

You don't see how mass murder is a point against him? I realize this probably falls back on the "casualties of war" argument, but deliberate friendly fire in the name of a greater good is counter to most of the heroics presented throughout the series.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling. We can discuss Mesaana if that's what you prefer, but my interest is primarily in Hypothetical Rahvin scenario. I'd be interested in hearing the circumstances under which that could possibly work.

[MasterAblar]

Too be fair to Egwene (and don't get me wrong, I love a good Egwene hating session) but really, he told her once, when last information she heard was him nearly completely insane and balefiring the shit out of everyone. I mean, he is known to be susceptible to madness, it ins't really too strange that she was weary in trusting him. If i have to be totally honest about it, I think Egwene did the sensible thing, as much as I hate to admit.

 

I can understand Egwene not believing him at the time of the meeting, since, as you said, the latest news about him isn't the best and his sanity is definitely questionable. It's after Nyneave tells her about everything that's happened, and brought her up to date on Rand's situation, that she should have thought things over again. It's actually right after this that Egwene refuses to ask Rand for help. And when she does, her reason is that "this is a matter for the tower" (or something like that). So it seems to me that she just want's to show that the tower can deal with Mesaana on it's own.

 

Asmo. But he still went into a battle against an opponent who was significantly more knowledgeable than him, and without LTT's knowledge. He still won. So Rand can go and attack against an opponent with numerous advantages but the girls can't?

 

Rand attacked Asmodean, yes, but he didn't really have a choice. He chose to attack Rahvin. Rand went in with backup at first. And while Rahvin has advantages over him, he doesn't have the greatest one he has over the girls, which is wielding the opposite power. Rand can sense Rahvin, he can see his weaves, and he can cut them. That evens the fight. Rahvin still has the advantage, and if I didn't know Rand had plot protection, taveren, and LTT's memories, I would bet on him. But the fight is definitely far more winnable for Rand than for the girls.

 

Numbers, training, preparation, planning - all advantages that Rand lacks, for the most part. They can win without a miracle.

 

If the numbers are great enough, Rahvin won't bother taking them on head on. He'll just hide and pick them off one by one, and since they can't sense his channelling or his ability to channel, it'll be absurdly easy, like Arangar in the Aes Sedai camp. Planning and preparition is great, but they have no idea what they're up against. How do you plan against the unknown? When they went to Tear, Bel'al caught them with ease. When Egwene and Aviendha fought Lanfear, it wasn't even a fight. They would be going into Caemlyn without any idea of what they're facing.

 

So? They've had more formal training than him. He just worked stuff out, without LTT, because that's the only way he could really learn before Asmo. Being forced to learn by instinct is not ideal, but Rand had no choice. Doesn't mean that the girls would have been less adept at it, only that they had a better method of learning things. Bear in mind that Healing and balefire were a couple more things they learnt this way, as well. In short, when they had to learn that way they did admirably, but they more often had formal tuition to learn things, so it is through lack of opportunity, not lack of ability, that has caused them to learn less than Rand via instinct.

 

Asmodean taught Rand from July 1st to September 21st. Egwene and Nyneave were trained in the WT from June 20th to Sept 23rd and were in the WT for 3 days in tDR. So they had about 2 and a half weeks more training than he did. Except that he was trained by a man from the Age of Legends and they were trained by Aes Sedai of the 3rd Age. Not to mention Rand already had the basics down by the time Asmodean became his teacher. What he really needed was knowledge of weaves.

 

Besides, what I meant by instincts I wasn't talking about how he learned before Asmodean came along, I meant how he fights. Even after Asmodean, the right knowledge pops up exactly when he needs it like how to cut weaves, and the shield he used against Osangar. I think it's safe to say that the girls are not going to suddenly remember AoL weaves in the middle of a fight. At the very least they certainly would not expect to, and therefore would not depend on it happening in the middle of a fight against Rahvin.

 

Healing is something a lot of wilders learn on their own. As for the balefire, Nyneave seems to have done it purely out of anger and fear, sort of like Aviendha's travelling. In any case it's doubtfull the girls have a long dead extremely knowledgable person's voice in their head who regularly drops very useful bits of information at just the right time.

 

...The Power. Is the notion of channelers using the power to shield themselves against attacks from the Power so out there?

 

You sort have to know what you're shielding against before you shield. And seeing as they can't see his weaves they won't know what shield to use. If Rahvin decides to blow up their heads, how do they shield against that? If he decides to make them burst into flame, how do they shield against that?

 

Your basis for this? And as you point out, Rand was in the same situation (not knowing how to do stuff), but faced with no back up in case he died, no one to take the pressure off him.

 

I must have missed the point where the books stated the girls knew how to cut someones weaves. It's not necessary against someone of the same sex, since you can see their weaves and block them.

 

Rand could cut weaves, he could see Rahvin's weaves, he could sense where Rahvin was. And he actually did go in with backup at first: Aviendha and Asmodean(granted the second would not have been much use). After Aviendha died nothing mattered anyway, since Rand went berserk. Regardless, his ability to sense Rahvin and his weaves, and defend against them is what makes him far more capable of fighting Rahvin.

 

Had Rand tried to take on a female Forsaken before he learned how to cut their weaves, he would also have been in nearly as bad position as the girls against Rahvin. At least he could sense where she is, althoug even that could be taken away from him, if the Forsaken hides her ability to channel.

 

Or you just need a bunch of smaller rebellions.

 

Sure but that isn't nearly as effective.

 

The BT would try to make things end up the same. A cohesive group of trained channelers fighting back against you is a different proposition to individual runaways.

 

Of course, it might happen, but like I said I just don't think it would. The trained channellers probably won't be welcome with the rebels anyway. They aren't welcome anywhere, except for the BT. If Rand is smart he'll refrain from slaughtering people anyway.

 

Of course they'll have a choice. The Trollocs won't be everywhere. I'm sure a lot of people will sit out TG (not everyone will be capable of fighting, for one thing).

 

Unless the andoran people are complete idiots as a rule, I find it very unlikely they won't see the risk in weakening the guy who is trying to save the entire world, at least once it becomes obvious the world is in danger. Caemlyn definitely seems to be a target for the shadow. Not to mention the lack of food, the bubbles of evil, the ghosts... It all gets worse as the final battle comes nearer. If Rand is smart he'll make a deal with them to leave Andor if they fight at the Last Battle. Then both will get what they want.

 

He didn't have LTT for a number of those fights. LTT first manifested in TSR, and didn't really play a significant role in his Chosen fights until ACoS (LTT knowledge helping him find Sammael).

 

I don't think "they wouldn't decide to attack Rahvin because Rand wasn't in the habit of attacking Chosen" is a compelling argument. Just because he was attacked, not the attacker doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. And sure, he's ta'veren. But so what? That's something that helped, not something that he relied on for victory. The girls have a number of advantages over Rand alone - with sufficient planning, they should have been able to deal with Rahvin. There are many ways to go about doing it. And better preparation means a reduced reliance on luck.

 

Yeah, it was mostly just luck or taveren, but I don't remember the books by heart so just to be safe I mentioned LTT.

 

Regardless, my argument wasn't that they shouldn't attack him because Rand didn't attack Forsaken. You said that Rand got lucky against a bunch of opponents in the early books. I pointed out that he was always forced into those fights (which most of the time means he was defending himself). He didn't go after them in the early books precisely because he had no chance of winning, unless some kind of miracle happened, which is how he won the fights that came to him. Therefore, just like you said, you don't rely on taveren, on luck, on a miracle to win a fight. Which is why, in my opinion, the fight between the supergirls and Rahvin would never happened, because, while if it did, they might win thanks to plot protection, it would only happen if they attacked him. Which is something that I consider very unlikely, seeing how unlikely an eventual victory would be from their point of view (since from their pov, they don't have plot protection, so while they may have gotten lucky once, there is no certainty that it'll happen again). You don't go into a fight you're very likely to lose, unless you absolutely must. They would never attack him, and therefore there would never be an oppurtunity fo them to get lucky and win the fight.

 

Dealing with problem channelers is part of the AS job description (taking down male channelers, and any non-AS organisation than reared its head, and making sure that any wilders who might give the impression of being AS got slapped down). While taking on a Chosen is a bit harder the principle is the same. This is a problem in the WT and for the WT. The Chosen elsewhere are problems that the WT should deal with if no-one else can, but if they cannot sort out the one in their midst then they'll really do themselves no favours.

 

I didn't say they should rely on Rand, and ask him to take care of everything, I said they should ask for his assistance. There he is a lot he could bring to the table, particularly information. Egwene refuses to ask him for help because she believes "this is matter of the tower", which I think is foolish. Rahvin was not just a matter for Andor, no more than Bel'al for Tear, Semirhage for Seanchan, Sammael for Illian, or Graendla for Arad Doman. The issue is that she doesn't want to be seen as asking the DR for assistance, which I think is foolish because this is something far too important. Considering Rand's record against the Forsaken, his assistance could only be a positive thing.

[David Selig]

Story-wise, at the point in which TFoH took place, Travelling hadn't even been rediscovered (?) and even had Elayne learned Rahvin was ruling Andor, the chances of her getting the support of the WT would be minimal. She'd have come across as a raving madwoman, likely taken into protective custody by the WT at Alviarin's advice and assassinated by the Black Ajah, who at that time were still running rampant under the charge of Mesaana.

Elayne at this point was staying away from the Elaida faction. The Salidar leaders though believed Nynaeve and Elayne when they told them Sammael was in charge of Illian, so I don't see why they wouldn't believe about Gaebril/Rahvin. His rise to power was extremely suspicious. After that, it makes sense to support Elayne in dealing with him.

 

BTW, the Supergirls were taught how to fight male channellers - that's one of the main jobs of an Aes Sedai after all. They don't have practical experience, true, but they aren't completely unprepared. Most of the time raw power easily beats skill and experience, when it comes to channelling fights, so the Supergirls linked had a real shot at beating Rahvin IMO.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

BTW, the Supergirls were taught how to fight male channellers - that's one of the main jobs of an Aes Sedai after all.

 

I don't dispute your word, but can you show me this? I am interested in what tactics they use and that, I didn't catch it in book.

 

 

Master Ablar: Fair enough. I am no fan of Egwene, so I don't really want to defend her much. I still think that as Amyrlin, she cannot take even Nynaeve's word for it. As head of the Aes Sedai, she needs to confront Rand to be doubly sure that he isn't insane. Sure, she takes it over the top, saying Nynaeve must be under his influence and thats why she says what she does. It sounds stupid, I agree. But as leader of one of the most powerful organizations in the world, which will jump at any mistake she makes, she needs to take the safer option. I myself think this shows that she is a weak leader, and needs to conform to others so she is not deposed, but it IS the safest option.

[MasterAblar]

Note that we're talking about the Rahvin Hypothetical here, and I'm only using this example to highlight why Rand is the worst person to ask any kind of advice on fighting a female. This tangent, while relevant as to whether she should be asking him for advice on Mesaana, really doesn't offer much other than that highlight for Rahvin.

 

I'm not following you here. What does Rahvin have to do with whether Egwene should ask for Rand's assistance with Mesaana?

 

That's right. It IS her problem, because according to herself, his words were those of a madman, were coupled with zero explanation. Further, the last she'd heard of him, he was committing an atrocity pre-VoG against a civilian population. It is highly in question whether Rand could offer her any reasonable advice on the matter, due to the fact the only fem-Forsaken he's killed was part of an atrocity. Is it reasonable to expect Egwene to emulate his behavior? Should she be willing to destroy the Tower and every woman in it, or the population place Mesaana might flee to? Mass murder in the name of a greater good? Darth Sedai, the new counterpart to the monstrosity the male channelers became under the influence of the taint?

 

Nyneave should have brought her up to speed with Rand, and Egwene said herself that Rand has changed since then. And there's what the Wise One's have said about him. She should at least be in doubt over whether he is insane or not. Also, it's not necessarily advice on how to carry out her plan that she should ask for, it's rather information on Mesaana, which is something Egwene was after orginally. After all knowing your enemy is very important in forming a plan against him.

 

That said the reason she gives for not asking Rand's help is not that he's insane or can't be trusted, it's that "this is a matter of the tower". It sounds to me like she wants the tower to take care of this on it's own so is to not be seen asking assistance from the DR.

 

 

You don't see how mass murder is a point against him? I realize this probably falls back on the "casualties of war" argument, but deliberate friendly fire in the name of a greater good is counter to most of the heroics presented throughout the series.

 

Well obviously from a moral perspective it was no good, but from a knowing you enemy and knowing how to carry out a plan against them, it was brilliant. He knew exactly in what manner he shoud fight Graendal. The balefiring itself was terrible, but to me it was more the callous and uncaring manner in which he did it that is horrible. As he said the people there were doomed to death in any case, which admitidly does not mean you should just kill them to make sure you've killed your target. Nonetheless, he knew just how fight Graendal, which is the interesting part.

[Suttree]

Unless the andoran people are complete idiots as a rule, I find it very unlikely they won't see the risk in weakening the guy who is trying to save the entire world, at least once it becomes obvious the world is in danger. Caemlyn definitely seems to be a target for the shadow. Not to mention the lack of food, the bubbles of evil, the ghosts... It all gets worse as the final battle comes nearer. If Rand is smart he'll make a deal with them to leave Andor if they fight at the Last Battle. Then both will get what they want.

 

This is actually the exact opposite. It is why Rand's hands would be tied in any scenario in which he conquered and allowed the Aiel the fifth in Andor. The country would come against him had he stayed, that has already been established and he would have squandered the most powerful ally the light has this side of Seanchan leading up to TG. It is why any victory, no matter how complete would be an utterly phyrric one for Rand.

[XXX]

Story-wise, at the point in which TFoH took place, Travelling hadn't even been rediscovered (?) and even had Elayne learned Rahvin was ruling Andor, the chances of her getting the support of the WT would be minimal. She'd have come across as a raving madwoman, likely taken into protective custody by the WT at Alviarin's advice and assassinated by the Black Ajah, who at that time were still running rampant under the charge of Mesaana.

Elayne at this point was staying away from the Elaida faction. The Salidar leaders though believed Nynaeve and Elayne when they told them Sammael was in charge of Illian, so I don't see why they wouldn't believe about Gaebril/Rahvin. His rise to power was extremely suspicious. After that, it makes sense to support Elayne in dealing with him.

 

BTW, the Supergirls were taught how to fight male channellers - that's one of the main jobs of an Aes Sedai after all. They don't have practical experience, true, but they aren't completely unprepared. Most of the time raw power easily beats skill and experience, when it comes to channelling fights, so the Supergirls linked had a real shot at beating Rahvin IMO.

 

Not true..Rand was getting smashed against Rahvin, Sammael , Lanfear and escaped only due to luck outside interference in spite of being stronger than them.

[David Selig]

Rand wasn't getting smashed around by Rahvin - before Rahvin entered TAR, it was an even fight. Lanfear was beating him because of his insane "can't kill a woman obsession". Only Sammael had Rand beaten in more or less straight channelling duel.

[MasterAblar]

BTW, the Supergirls were taught how to fight male channellers - that's one of the main jobs of an Aes Sedai after all. They don't have practical experience, true, but they aren't completely unprepared. Most of the time raw power easily beats skill and experience, when it comes to channelling fights, so the Supergirls linked had a real shot at beating Rahvin IMO.

 

Rand wasn't getting smashed around by Rahvin - before Rahvin entered TAR, it was an even fight. Lanfear was beating him because of his insane "can't kill a woman obsession". Only Sammael had Rand beaten in more or less straight channelling duel.

 

I agree with your view of his performance in those fights. That said, I think XXX47 is right when he says that strength doesn't necessarily mean victory. It can be a huge advantage yes, but so can knowledge and experience. When Lanfear and Alivia fought Lanfear was at a disadvantage in many ways and yet still nearly killed Alivia thanks probably to her greater knowledge of channelling. I'm thinking strength would be most advantageous when you're in a head to head confrontation, where you can just overwhelm them with superior power.

 

Also, while the Aes Sedai job description includes capturing male channellers, which may include fighting, I don't don't believe it's ever been shown that the Aes Sedai know how to cut a male channellers weaves. I only remember Lanfear, and later Rand doing so. And besides, the supergirls haven't gotten much training. I rather doubt they got to learning how to fight male channellers. They were only novices after all.

 

Master Ablar: Fair enough. I am no fan of Egwene, so I don't really want to defend her much. I still think that as Amyrlin, she cannot take even Nynaeve's word for it. As head of the Aes Sedai, she needs to confront Rand to be doubly sure that he isn't insane. Sure, she takes it over the top, saying Nynaeve must be under his influence and thats why she says what she does. It sounds stupid, I agree. But as leader of one of the most powerful organizations in the world, which will jump at any mistake she makes, she needs to take the safer option. I myself think this shows that she is a weak leader, and needs to conform to others so she is not deposed, but it IS the safest option.

 

I agree she shouldn't just take Nyneave's word for it, she should meet him and decide for herself. That means that in the case of the seals she should wait until the FoM to decide whether he needs to be opposed, and in dealing with Mesaana, she should at least try and ask for his help while confirming whether he is insane or not.

 

Unless the andoran people are complete idiots as a rule, I find it very unlikely they won't see the risk in weakening the guy who is trying to save the entire world, at least once it becomes obvious the world is in danger. Caemlyn definitely seems to be a target for the shadow. Not to mention the lack of food, the bubbles of evil, the ghosts... It all gets worse as the final battle comes nearer. If Rand is smart he'll make a deal with them to leave Andor if they fight at the Last Battle. Then both will get what they want.

 

This is actually the exact opposite. It is why Rand's hands would be tied in any scenario in which he conquered and allowed the Aiel the fifth in Andor. The country would come against him had he stayed, that has already been established and he would have squandered the most powerful ally the light has this side of Seanchan leading up to TG. It is why any victory, no matter how complete would be an utterly phyrric one for Rand.

 

He wouldn't conquer Andor though, he's liberating it from the Forsaken. Mr Ares said that the people could just ignore him if he tried to rule or put someone else in place instead of let the andorans decide. But why should he care if they ignore him? He doesn't want to rule in Andor, he just wants to ensure there is no civil war going on when TG comes around. He doesn't need to worry about the rest of the country, only Caemlyn, and really only the palace since that's where the throne is. No one is contesting the throne, and no one is recognizing Rand as the ruler, but he doesn't need them to, he only needs them to stay at peace. Then when TG comes around they have no choice but to fight, unless they all want to die. Rand can even promise to leave Andor if they fight at TG. Andor's armies can organise themselves. With TG obviously happening now they can't afford to fight a war over the throne, the succession will be dealt with after the Last Battle. And Rand could care less about that.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Elayne at this point was staying away from the Elaida faction. The Salidar leaders though believed Nynaeve and Elayne when they told them Sammael was in charge of Illian, so I don't see why they wouldn't believe about Gaebril/Rahvin. His rise to power was extremely suspicious. After that, it makes sense to support Elayne in dealing with him.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve didn't join the Salidar faction until the end of TFoH, roughly around the same time Rand was wiping Rahvin off the Pattern. They had no training in fighting male channelers, and I don't recall seeing anything in the books that suggest that anyone other than the Reds actually does that either. What book are you citing on that, anyway?

 

Anyway, at this point the Salidarans not only had no Red Ajah, no Amyrlin, but no "supergirl discoveries" and a Forsaken and his pet Black Ajah setting up shop at the beginning of the very next book. I'm kind of skeptical that the Salidarans would have done anything for Elayne but sympathize with the plight of her nation.

 

So the question is: How exactly would Elayne and Nynaeve have gotten to Rahvin linked without Rahvin knowing they were coming and killing them or adding them to his harem? Moghedien herself might even have done them in or tipped someone off, because neither Elayne or Nynaeve have the nasty disposition to "train" the Forsaken the way a Seanchan would.

[Suttree]

Unless the andoran people are complete idiots as a rule, I find it very unlikely they won't see the risk in weakening the guy who is trying to save the entire world, at least once it becomes obvious the world is in danger. Caemlyn definitely seems to be a target for the shadow. Not to mention the lack of food, the bubbles of evil, the ghosts... It all gets worse as the final battle comes nearer. If Rand is smart he'll make a deal with them to leave Andor if they fight at the Last Battle. Then both will get what they want.

 

This is actually the exact opposite. It is why Rand's hands would be tied in any scenario in which he conquered and allowed the Aiel the fifth in Andor. The country would come against him had he stayed, that has already been established and he would have squandered the most powerful ally the light has this side of Seanchan leading up to TG. It is why any victory, no matter how complete would be an utterly phyrric one for Rand.

 

He wouldn't conquer Andor though, he's liberating it from the Forsaken. Mr Ares said that the people could just ignore him if he tried to rule or put someone else in place instead of let the andorans decide. But why should he care if they ignore him? He doesn't want to rule in Andor, he just wants to ensure there is no civil war going on when TG comes around. He doesn't need to worry about the rest of the country, only Caemlyn, and really only the palace since that's where the throne is. No one is contesting the throne, and no one is recognizing Rand as the ruler, but he doesn't need them to, he only needs them to stay at peace. Then when TG comes around they have no choice but to fight, unless they all want to die. Rand can even promise to leave Andor if they fight at TG. Andor's armies can organise themselves. With TG obviously happening now they can't afford to fight a war over the throne, the succession will be dealt with after the Last Battle. And Rand could care less about that.

 

Sorry, so many hypotheticals have been tossed out I could be losing track. Part of what was being discussed is what would have happened had Rand stayed too long and Dyelin been forced to come against him correct? If that was the case I stand by my post.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm not following you here. What does Rahvin have to do with whether Egwene should ask for Rand's assistance with Mesaana?

 

I believe that's because you're mistaking my mention of Mesaana for a reference to the Egwene Hypothetical, that scenario you've discussed and mentioned again here, where Egwene may or may not have been better off recruiting Rand to her efforts in ToM.

 

I'm talking about the Rahvin Hypothetical during TFoH and pointing out that had Elayne gone to the WT for their aid against Rahvin, she would not only have had Rahvin on her hands, but Mesaana and her Black Ajah such as Alviarin to deal with. And their captive, Moghedien. Egwene doesn't really enter into this scenario because she's off with Rand and the Aiel. We can discuss the Egwene Hypothetical if you like, but that's a different scenario.

 

Nyneave should have brought her up to speed with Rand, and Egwene said herself that Rand has changed since then. And there's what the Wise One's have said about him. She should at least be in doubt over whether he is insane or not. Also, it's not necessarily advice on how to carry out her plan that she should ask for, it's rather information on Mesaana, which is something Egwene was after orginally. After all knowing your enemy is very important in forming a plan against him.

 

So anyway, discussing that other topic...

 

"Change" doesn't necessarily mean for the better, and it's never safe to assume that just because the former nutcase has quieted down, that they haven't gone completely 'round the bend. I don't think Nynaeve was present for VoG and can only enlighten Egwene in regards to Rand's atrocity, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Far as her reasons for not asking Rand's aid, her move was pretty savvy in a political sense, and from a tactical standpoint as well. Their meeting was in front of the entire Hall, not sealed to the Hall, for the specific reason of Egwene being seen confront Rand. Black Purge or no, Rand made it clear he wasn't sticking around, and any advice he gave would have gone straight to Mesaana's ears, rendering it worthless. Egwene has to know that. The rest is a simple matter of self-preservation - the Amyrlin publicly grovelling for the aid of a male channeler to fix what is effectively the WT's problem would break the foundation she's laid for herself. And it would be seen as grovelling, because she is the Amyrlin and whatever breaking the Tower's been through, these women still have their pride.

 

Well obviously from a moral perspective it was no good, but from a knowing you enemy and knowing how to carry out a plan against them, it was brilliant. He knew exactly in what manner he shoud fight Graendal. The balefiring itself was terrible, but to me it was more the callous and uncaring manner in which he did it that is horrible. As he said the people there were doomed to death in any case, which admitidly does not mean you should just kill them to make sure you've killed your target. Nonetheless, he knew just how fight Graendal, which is the interesting part.

 

That's assuming he knows how to fight Graendal, and didn't simply take the easiest route available to one not burdened by principle. LTT didn't know how to beat Graendal, or he'd have done it back in the AoL; he couldn't use what knowledge he had beat any of them... they ruled territories, and did it so well that their AoL histories are rife with lists of the atrocities they committed. It was suggested this has something to to do LTT's personal principles, and it is that lack of principles in "Darth Rand" that allowed such an attack to be used. Once Rand had his epiphany, gaining LTTs knowledge and their shared principles, he destroyed the device he used to do it, ensuring that the same power could not be used again. If he had the same knowledge all over again and the weapon to do it with, the balefiring wouldn't happen. At least that's how I see it.

[David Selig]

I agree with your view of his performance in those fights. That said, I think XXX47 is right when he says that strength doesn't necessarily mean victory. It can be a huge advantage yes, but so can knowledge and experience. When Lanfear and Alivia fought Lanfear was at a disadvantage in many ways and yet still nearly killed Alivia thanks probably to her greater knowledge of channelling. I'm thinking strength would be most advantageous when you're in a head to head confrontation, where you can just overwhelm them with superior power.

 

Also, while the Aes Sedai job description includes capturing male channellers, which may include fighting, I don't don't believe it's ever been shown that the Aes Sedai know how to cut a male channellers weaves. I only remember Lanfear, and later Rand doing so. And besides, the supergirls haven't gotten much training. I rather doubt they got to learning how to fight male channellers. They were only novices after all.

 

Sure, raw power is not everything, I totally agree, but it's very important.

Elayne at least has been taught some things on how to deal with male channellers besides trying to shield them - we have this quote from when she met Taim.

There were methods of interfering with a man channeling short of shielding him, but it was a difficult skill, chancy, and she knew little more than the theory.

Obviously no practice training of this due to lack of male channellers to spar in the tower, but it's still something.

 

I'm talking about the Rahvin Hypothetical during TFoH and pointing out that had Elayne gone to the WT for their aid against Rahvin, she would not only have had Rahvin on her hands, but Mesaana and her Black Ajah such as Alviarin to deal with. And their captive, Moghedien. Egwene doesn't really enter into this scenario because she's off with Rand and the Aiel. We can discuss the Egwene Hypothetical if you like, but that's a different scenario.

But why would Elayne go to the Elaida faction for help instead of Salidar's? The most logical point at which this alternative plot we're discussing could've split from the canon is at the end of TFOH when Nynaeve captured Moggy and Moggy told her Rahvin was in Caemlyn. At this point Elayne was already in Salidar and knew Elaida wanted her captured. And she didn't have Travelling available, so going all the way to Tar Valon and then back to Caemlyn wasn't really an option anyway.

 

Anyway, at this point the Salidarans not only had no Red Ajah, no Amyrlin, but no "supergirl discoveries" and a Forsaken and his pet Black Ajah setting up shop at the beginning of the very next book. I'm kind of skeptical that the Salidarans would have done anything for Elayne but sympathize with the plight of her nation.

Rahvin wasn't controlling the Black Ajah and had no real allies among the Forsaken. Whoever Forsaken

was controlling Sheriam and the other Salidar BA at this point (end of TFOH) probably would've welcomed a chance to help Rahvin killed. The non-black Aes Sedai, on the other hand, not only had the incentive of "we have to help get rid of the evil Forsaken", but also more self-serving political reasons to offer help. If they could help Elayne get the Lion Throne, that's a huge boost for the rebel faction. Andor has always had close ties to the White Tower, and if the new Queen declares support for the Salidar group, that's a major help for them. Especially at this time, when the rebels were really struggling to be accepted by the world monarchs and even to make ends meet financially.

[XXX]

Rand wasn't getting smashed around by Rahvin - before Rahvin entered TAR, it was an even fight. Lanfear was beating him because of his insane "can't kill a woman obsession". Only Sammael had Rand beaten in more or less straight channelling duel.

 

I would consider Rahvin entering TAR and using a combination of OP and mind control to pummel Rand an example of skill and knowledge beating raw power..According to Jordan Rand would have beaten Lanfear at the docks if he had listened to LTT on how to fight her. Rand did not know without LTT how to fight her regardless of if he wanted to fight her or not. And in the fight with Sammeal..Rand was at a higher skill level compared to the previous 2 fights and as you admit he was getting smashed.

[MasterAblar]

Elayne at least has been taught some things on how to deal with male channellers besides trying to shield them - we have this quote from when she met Taim.

There were methods of interfering with a man channeling short of shielding him, but it was a difficult skill, chancy, and she knew little more than the theory.

Obviously no practice training of this due to lack of male channellers to spar in the tower, but it's still something.

 

Well, that's something at least. Perhaps she tried to have Moghedien teach her. This quote is also from WH, and it's not clear when she learned the theory. However if she only knows the theory, she can't go into battle with Rahvin. Asmodean tried to teach Rand how to do it as well. Rand couldn't do it, which goes to show how difficult it is to learn. Not until his fight against Lanfear where suddenly it was as if he'd known to do it all along. Elayne (and whoever goes with her), would have to learn this skill before going to fight Rahvin, and that means practising against a man, and that doesn't really seem plausible to me. Which means she would have to go into battle hoping that she'll suddenly understand how to do it, which is the same as relying on luck really. If she's not particularly confident against Taim, well, she'll be even less against Rahvin, 3 books earlier.

 

I believe that's because you're mistaking my mention of Mesaana for a reference to the Egwene Hypothetical, that scenario you've discussed and mentioned again here, where Egwene may or may not have been better off recruiting Rand to her efforts in ToM.

 

I'm talking about the Rahvin Hypothetical during TFoH and pointing out that had Elayne gone to the WT for their aid against Rahvin, she would not only have had Rahvin on her hands, but Mesaana and her Black Ajah such as Alviarin to deal with. And their captive, Moghedien. Egwene doesn't really enter into this scenario because she's off with Rand and the Aiel. We can discuss the Egwene Hypothetical if you like, but that's a different scenario.

 

Oh, OK. Yeah going to the WT would not have been a good move for Elayne.

 

So anyway, discussing that other topic...

 

"Change" doesn't necessarily mean for the better, and it's never safe to assume that just because the former nutcase has quieted down, that they haven't gone completely 'round the bend. I don't think Nynaeve was present for VoG and can only enlighten Egwene in regards to Rand's atrocity, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Far as her reasons for not asking Rand's aid, her move was pretty savvy in a political sense, and from a tactical standpoint as well. Their meeting was in front of the entire Hall, not sealed to the Hall, for the specific reason of Egwene being seen confront Rand. Black Purge or no, Rand made it clear he wasn't sticking around, and any advice he gave would have gone straight to Mesaana's ears, rendering it worthless. Egwene has to know that. The rest is a simple matter of self-preservation - the Amyrlin publicly grovelling for the aid of a male channeler to fix what is effectively the WT's problem would break the foundation she's laid for herself. And it would be seen as grovelling, because she is the Amyrlin and whatever breaking the Tower's been through, these women still have their pride.

 

Which is why I have no problem with her not asking Rand for help when she met him. It's later on after she's learned of the change that has come over Rand (a change that at least appears to be positive) that she should have considered asking for his help, and seeing for herself whether he is sane or not. No one would know she is asking, or at least considering asking, Rand for help.

 

Nyneave doesn't have to be there at VoG. She, as well as the Wise Ones, and even Egwene to certain extent, can compare how Rand was before and after. It should be quite obvious that the change is for the good, and that he might be completely sane.

 

That's assuming he knows how to fight Graendal, and didn't simply take the easiest route available to one not burdened by principle. LTT didn't know how to beat Graendal, or he'd have done it back in the AoL; he couldn't use what knowledge he had beat any of them... they ruled territories, and did it so well that their AoL histories are rife with lists of the atrocities they committed. It was suggested this has something to to do LTT's personal principles, and it is that lack of principles in "Darth Rand" that allowed such an attack to be used. Once Rand had his epiphany, gaining LTTs knowledge and their shared principles, he destroyed the device he used to do it, ensuring that the same power could not be used again. If he had the same knowledge all over again and the weapon to do it with, the balefiring wouldn't happen. At least that's how I see it.

 

We don't know that LTT ever had the oppurtunity to defeat Graendal. It's not really knowledge of how to defeat her that should be intersting, it's simply knowledge about the person. If you know you're adversary, then it'll be easier to predict what they'll do. In Graendal's case, Rand knew that she was far more clever than him, and would try to play a game with him. If he didn't know her, he couldn't have predicted that she would use compulsion, and he couldn't have confirmed her death. He also would not have had the certainty that everyone in the complex was under heavy compulsion, and if they were not it might have stayed his hand. His apparent defeat of her shows that he has great knowledge of his adversary, which coupled with his ruthlesness at the time, allowed him to defeat her. Obviously, without the ruthlesness, Egwene, just like LTT, could not have done what Rand did. But that shouldn't make one forget that Rand showed great knowledge of his adversary, knowledge that was crucial in his, apparent, victory.

 

I would consider Rahvin entering TAR and using a combination of OP and mind control to pummel Rand an example of skill and knowledge beating raw power..According to Jordan Rand would have beaten Lanfear at the docks if he had listened to LTT on how to fight her. Rand did not know without LTT how to fight her regardless of if he wanted to fight her or not. And in the fight with Sammeal..Rand was at a higher skill level compared to the previous 2 fights and as you admit he was getting smashed.

 

Rahvin goint into TAR is an example of skill and knowledge yes, but it has nothing to do with the One Power. It is not proof of his superior knowledge or skill in the OP, but of superior knowledge and skill in TAR.

 

I agree on the Lanfear fight however. It clearly shows that it's LTT's knowledge, experience, and skill that would have made the difference not Rand's greater strength (which is likely to be greater, as it's doubtful he could have defeated Lanfear without it, knowing that his greater strength is balanced by her greater dexterity).

 

Sorry, so many hypotheticals have been tossed out I could be losing track. Part of what was being discussed is what would have happened had Rand stayed too long and Dyelin been forced to come against him correct? If that was the case I stand by my post.

 

If Rand had stayed too long and Dyeling moved against him then yeah he would have a hard time and subduing a rebellion would definitely cost so many lives that it would be a phyrric victory for the light. Then again, most battles so far have been phyrric victories one way or another no matter who won, since they all weakened the light.

 

However this was more in a case where Rand neutralised the nobles first and stopped them from causing trouble, which would mean Rand has no real standing armies to fight and the rebellion is far less organised. In this case, the people could simply refuse to see him as their ruler and ignore him. They're not actively fighting him since they have no armies to do so, but they're not accepting him either. It's a standstill, a dead end. But it's a dead end where no one is fighting each other and no one is dying for no reason. All he has to do is stop the nobles from fighting for the throne, and he does that by holding Caemlyn and the Royal Palace. They don't dare face him directly, it would be suicide. A war of attrition is useless if Rand is not interested in controlling more than the Capital. He doesn't need to control the countryside.

[Eht Slat Meit]

But why would Elayne go to the Elaida faction for help instead of Salidar's? The most logical point at which this alternative plot we're discussing could've split from the canon is at the end of TFOH when Nynaeve captured Moggy and Moggy told her Rahvin was in Caemlyn. At this point Elayne was already in Salidar and knew Elaida wanted her captured. And she didn't have Travelling available, so going all the way to Tar Valon and then back to Caemlyn wasn't really an option anyway.

 

This is a fair point, and the focus of the Rahvin Hypothetical should probably be shifted to the KISS principle - that is, were Elayne to seek aid from one of the two factions, she would probably seek that of the Little Tower, the Salidar Sedai. Let's analyze it further:

 

In this scenario, no battle between Rand ever took place because Rand for whatever reason didn't know, didn't feel it was his place, whatever. Asmodean's still alive, but inconsequential. Morgase will still have escaped, but Elayne won't know that, and seeks aid to liberate Andor from the Forsaken King Rahvin who stole it from her presumably dead mother.

 

It should be considered that a number of Forsaken are involved here, for various reasons. I'm splitting them by apparent faction at the time of TFoH. Things changed later one with the death of various Forsaken. I'm striking out those that aren't directly relevant to the scenario and not including the dead, though their faction is relevant.

 

• 
   
  
• Rahvin/Graendal/Sammael - Loose alliance, Lanfear is dead by her own doing.
  
• Halima-Aran'gar, Demandred/Semirhage/Mesaana - I am including Halima in this faction, because it seems clear that she was placed as an agent in Salidar by Semirhage's information from Cabriana Mecandes and probably Mesaana's contacts.
  
• Moghedien - As of TFoH, apparently a faction unto herself.
  

 

In this scenario, Elayne is faced with three distinct factions. Rahvin, Moghedien, and Team Halima.

 

You've suggested that due to their own self-serving machinations, these two factions would likely probably quietly help Elayne. Looking at their motives:

 

1. Moghedien. Currently a prisoner via the a'dam, and it has been made clear that her place is going to be a mine of information. Which she does fine with. However, she's The Spider, the one who weaves her webs from the shadows. She doesn't come out in pitched battles unless she is cornered. You could consider that a'dam a form of cornering, and she will do it if she is FORCED to. Does she want a pitched battle with Rahvin? Probably not.

 

Motive: Escape.

 

2. Team Halima. It could be considered that there are two sets of agendas at play here. Team Demandred (+Mes+Semi) is an established faction, working towards their own ends. They're arguably the most focused (on the Last Battle) of the lot, not quibbling in the petty politicking and spiteful agendas of the likes of Rahvin, Lanfear, Graendal and Sammael. Would they off a Forsaken for a chance at Nae'bliss? (still in play at this time). Sure, but is Rahvin a serious candidate for Nae'bliss?

 

Motive: Nae'bliss, if anyone considers Rahvin a serious candidate for it.

 

Then there's Halima-Aran'gar herself. As I understand it, Halima was formerly Balthamel, a notorious man-slut, whose current existence is considered a hilarious irony because of that. Rahvin seems to share some of the same misogynstic tendencies, and as far as I can recall, there's no particular animosity (or relationship of any kind) indicated betweeen the two.

 

Motive: None, other than Nae'bliss.

 

3. Team Sammael - It's such a loose alliance, that I would consider them a fourth faction.

 

Motives: Individual, and petty enough to consider Rahvin a real threat for Nae'bliss.

 

I haven't mentioned the Black Ajah as a faction, because they don't operate independently, they answer to specific Forsaken. For this scenario, I believe it should be concluded that they abide by Forsaken dictate, and that all Forsaken involved know what's going down. Except Rahvin. Lanfear is dead, and Graendal and Sammael are too self-absorbed and uncommited to their alliance to tell him even if they knew it was coming. All other relevant Forsaken have agents and allies in the WT and LT camps. Once Elayne petitions the Salidar Sedai for help, they'll know it's happening.

 

Question is, what do they do when they find out? There are at least three different factions at potential odds with Rahvin. It's unlikely they care whether he lives or dies. However, their agenda is to sow discord, disruption and death among the Aes Sedai. Since it's not the Elaida's WT, it's less likely they'd simply kill Elayne off.

 

Far better to motivate the Salidar Sedai into a foolhardy attack, this half of the broken tower, into a suicide rush on Andor. Tip Rahvin off beforehand, make sure the rest of the world "knows" through darkfriends that Those Dirty Aes Sedai are violating the Oaths they've sworn, and bam, we have a Tower that's never going to recover.

 

This assumes of course, that they work together. Four factions working on completely different motivations is enough to chaos to kill Team Elayne all by itself. She's not ta'veren, after all.

 

For their part, I don't think Nynaeve and Elayne would be foolish enough to use Moghedien in the attack. Linking her in would make them a deadly force and more than sufficient counter to Rahvin in single combat, but they don't have the figurative short least necessary to ensure she won't turn on them.

 

End result? Rahvin probably dead, Team Elayne dead, Caemlyn a smoking ruin (Andor lives on), most of the Salidar non-Black Ajah dead, the entire Tower's reputation irrevocably destroyed. Rand is forced to allow the Seanchan to turn the surviving fragments of the Tower into damane, because it has no strength on its own.

 

That's how I see things turning out.

 

You?

[Mr Ares]

Asmo. But he still went into a battle against an opponent who was significantly more knowledgeable than him, and without LTT's knowledge. He still won. So Rand can go and attack against an opponent with numerous advantages but the girls can't?

 

Rand attacked Asmodean, yes, but he didn't really have a choice. He chose to attack Rahvin. Rand went in with backup at first. And while Rahvin has advantages over him, he doesn't have the greatest one he has over the girls, which is wielding the opposite power. Rand can sense Rahvin, he can see his weaves, and he can cut them. That evens the fight. Rahvin still has the advantage, and if I didn't know Rand had plot protection, taveren, and LTT's memories, I would bet on him. But the fight is definitely far more winnable for Rand than for the girls.

I fail to see why - for Rahvin, he can see Rand's weaves and cut them, he cannot do the same for the girls. Wielding the opposite side of the Source gives advantages and disadvantages. Same with the same side. In either case, the advantage still lies with Rahvin as he is still the one with the greater knowledge and experience, thus the one best able to counter the disadvantages and capitalise on the advantages. I fail to see why it's important that Rand chose some fights and not others.

 

Numbers, training, preparation, planning - all advantages that Rand lacks, for the most part. They can win without a miracle.

 

If the numbers are great enough, Rahvin won't bother taking them on head on. He'll just hide and pick them off one by one, and since they can't sense his channelling or his ability to channel, it'll be absurdly easy, like Arangar in the Aes Sedai camp. Planning and preparition is great, but they have no idea what they're up against. How do you plan against the unknown? When they went to Tear, Bel'al caught them with ease. When Egwene and Aviendha fought Lanfear, it wasn't even a fight. They would be going into Caemlyn without any idea of what they're facing.

Whether or not Rahvin decides to face them head on depends on a number of factors - if masses of AS arrive in Caemlyn, backed by armed guards, no surprise if he realises something is up. Send in a couple to engage him while a couple more sneak in under the radar means he doesn't run because he won't see the knife until it strikes. And women have ways of finding male channelers - in a situation like Aran'gar in Salidar, Rahvin is at the disadvantage of them knowing he is a man, rather than not knowing about a saidin channeling woman. As for planning, they know there is a Chosen, they know who he is. That's a start. Caemlyn is not a complete unknown.

 

So? They've had more formal training than him. He just worked stuff out, without LTT, because that's the only way he could really learn before Asmo. Being forced to learn by instinct is not ideal, but Rand had no choice. Doesn't mean that the girls would have been less adept at it, only that they had a better method of learning things. Bear in mind that Healing and balefire were a couple more things they learnt this way, as well. In short, when they had to learn that way they did admirably, but they more often had formal tuition to learn things, so it is through lack of opportunity, not lack of ability, that has caused them to learn less than Rand via instinct.

 

Asmodean taught Rand from July 1st to September 21st. Egwene and Nyneave were trained in the WT from June 20th to Sept 23rd and were in the WT for 3 days in tDR. So they had about 2 and a half weeks more training than he did. Except that he was trained by a man from the Age of Legends and they were trained by Aes Sedai of the 3rd Age. Not to mention Rand already had the basics down by the time Asmodean became his teacher. What he really needed was knowledge of weaves.

When Rand started with Asmo he couldn't even reliably grasp the Source - that's not a sign of having the basics down, that is a sign of the basics being absent. When Egwene went to the Tower, she had already received some teaching from Moiraine. After leaving, she recieved more from the Wise Ones. And the Seanchan. And Nynaeve and Elayne spent time on a Sea Folk ship, and so saw some of their weaves. Maybe not the most useful thing in combat, but their knowledge extends beyond that of the WT. Asmo was apoor teacher starting with a student who new virtually nothing. When the girls got to the WT they had some grasp of the basics, and teachers with more experience of teaching (albeit less to teach). That's hardly advantage Rand.

 

Besides, what I meant by instincts I wasn't talking about how he learned before Asmodean came along, I meant how he fights. Even after Asmodean, the right knowledge pops up exactly when he needs it like how to cut weaves, and the shield he used against Osangar. I think it's safe to say that the girls are not going to suddenly remember AoL weaves in the middle of a fight. At the very least they certainly would not expect to, and therefore would not depend on it happening in the middle of a fight against Rahvin.

The right knowledge pops into his head. The same happens to the girls - maybe not in fights, but it happens nonetheless. The principle is exactly the same. It happens less for the girls because they lack his insanity and they lack his number of fights where such knowledge is needed.

 

Healing is something a lot of wilders learn on their own. As for the balefire, Nyneave seems to have done it purely out of anger and fear, sort of like Aviendha's travelling. In any case it's doubtfull the girls have a long dead extremely knowledgable person's voice in their head who regularly drops very useful bits of information at just the right time.

Compulsion is a common Wilder trick, not Healing. And it is still regarded as a complex weave that requires a degree of skill, and Nynaeve still created a method of Healing unknown to the WT (but was what was used in the AoL). If that was common amongst Wilders, the AS would know it, or at least know of it.

 

...The Power. Is the notion of channelers using the power to shield themselves against attacks from the Power so out there?

 

You sort have to know what you're shielding against before you shield.

To an extent. But it is still possible to raise shileds - even shields against everything. Like Rand did. Rand didn't know what he was shielding against but did it anyway.

 

Your basis for this? And as you point out, Rand was in the same situation (not knowing how to do stuff), but faced with no back up in case he died, no one to take the pressure off him.

 

I must have missed the point where the books stated the girls knew how to cut someones weaves. It's not necessary against someone of the same sex, since you can see their weaves and block them.

It is stated that they know. Whether they knew then or not, I'm not sure off the top of my head, but they certainly know by the end of the series. So they know how to cut weaves. As does Rahvin. They can't see his weaves, but he can't see theirs. Rand and Rahvin can see each others weaves. So it is easier for them to cut each others weaves, and Rahvin has more experience of cutting eaves, and things like reversing weaves, but it is harder for the girls and Rahvin to cut each others weaves. And considering the number of weaves they could throw at him, that puts him at a disadvantage. Really, it cancels out between Rand and the girls - they have the offensive advantage and defensive disadvantge, while he has a defensive advantage and an offensive disadvantage. Which is better when you are on the offensive? If anything, it works to the benefit of the girls more so than it does Rand.

 

Or you just need a bunch of smaller rebellions.

 

Sure but that isn't nearly as effective.

 

The BT would try to make things end up the same. A cohesive group of trained channelers fighting back against you is a different proposition to individual runaways.

 

Of course, it might happen, but like I said I just don't think it would. The trained channellers probably won't be welcome with the rebels anyway. They aren't welcome anywhere, except for the BT. If Rand is smart he'll refrain from slaughtering people anyway.

The samller rebellions could be effective enough. If Rand isn't going to use the advantages the Asha'man give him it renders them moot.

 

He didn't have LTT for a number of those fights. LTT first manifested in TSR, and didn't really play a significant role in his Chosen fights until ACoS (LTT knowledge helping him find Sammael).

 

I don't think "they wouldn't decide to attack Rahvin because Rand wasn't in the habit of attacking Chosen" is a compelling argument. Just because he was attacked, not the attacker doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot. And sure, he's ta'veren. But so what? That's something that helped, not something that he relied on for victory. The girls have a number of advantages over Rand alone - with sufficient planning, they should have been able to deal with Rahvin. There are many ways to go about doing it. And better preparation means a reduced reliance on luck.

 

Yeah, it was mostly just luck or taveren, but I don't remember the books by heart so just to be safe I mentioned LTT.

 

Regardless, my argument wasn't that they shouldn't attack him because Rand didn't attack Forsaken. You said that Rand got lucky against a bunch of opponents in the early books. I pointed out that he was always forced into those fights (which most of the time means he was defending himself). He didn't go after them in the early books precisely because he had no chance of winning, unless some kind of miracle happened, which is how he won the fights that came to him. Therefore, just like you said, you don't rely on taveren, on luck, on a miracle to win a fight. Which is why, in my opinion, the fight between the supergirls and Rahvin would never happened, because, while if it did, they might win thanks to plot protection, it would only happen if they attacked him. Which is something that I consider very unlikely, seeing how unlikely an eventual victory would be from their point of view (since from their pov, they don't have plot protection, so while they may have gotten lucky once, there is no certainty that it'll happen again). You don't go into a fight you're very likely to lose, unless you absolutely must. They would never attack him, and therefore there would never be an oppurtunity fo them to get lucky and win the fight.

Except they do have a reason to attack him. How else are they to remove one of the Chosen from the throne of Andor? Say, "Please will you fight our battles for us, Rand?" So Elayne has a good reason to move against Rahvin - she undoubtedly would have done if Rand had not done it first.

 

Dealing with problem channelers is part of the AS job description (taking down male channelers, and any non-AS organisation than reared its head, and making sure that any wilders who might give the impression of being AS got slapped down). While taking on a Chosen is a bit harder the principle is the same. This is a problem in the WT and for the WT. The Chosen elsewhere are problems that the WT should deal with if no-one else can, but if they cannot sort out the one in their midst then they'll really do themselves no favours.

 

I didn't say they should rely on Rand, and ask him to take care of everything, I said they should ask for his assistance. There he is a lot he could bring to the table, particularly information. Egwene refuses to ask him for help because she believes "this is matter of the tower", which I think is foolish. Rahvin was not just a matter for Andor, no more than Bel'al for Tear, Semirhage for Seanchan, Sammael for Illian, or Graendla for Arad Doman. The issue is that she doesn't want to be seen as asking the DR for assistance, which I think is foolish because this is something far too important. Considering Rand's record against the Forsaken, his assistance could only be a positive thing.

You ignored my point. It is not Andor's job to deal with channelers. It is not Illian's. It is not Tear's. It is the Tower's. Saying the WT cannot do its job is not a positive.

[MasterAblar]

I fail to see why - for Rahvin, he can see Rand's weaves and cut them, he cannot do the same for the girls. Wielding the opposite side of the Source gives advantages and disadvantages. Same with the same side. In either case, the advantage still lies with Rahvin as he is still the one with the greater knowledge and experience, thus the one best able to counter the disadvantages and capitalise on the advantages.

 

The advantages and disadvantages that Rahvin has in fighting Rand go both way. However there is a huge disadvantage in fighting someone who wields the opposite side of the source which is that you cannot see their weaves and therefore cannot defend against them, unless you know how to cut them. Which Rahvin does and therefore that huge disadvantage no longer exists for him. The girls on the other hand do not have the ability to cut his weaves and therefore the huge disadvantage still exists for them. And there is no advantage that Rahvin has over Rand that is as important as the one he has over the girls. He has more experience than Rand and more knowledge, but Rand can defend against him, without resorting to guessing what Rahvin is going to throw at him. The girls cannot. I Rahvin tries to blow their heads up, there is nothing they can do. They don't know how. Rand on the other hand could. That is, to me, a huge difference.

 

I fail to see why it's important that Rand chose some fights and not others.

 

For you to get lucky in a fight, there has to be a fight in the first place. You said that the girls could get lucky in their fight against Rahvin just like Rand did against his early opponents. Rand did not decide to fight the Forsaken in the early books because he thought his luck would save him. He fought them because they attacked him, he had no choice in fighting him. The supergirls would not attack Rahvin thinking that their luck will save them, because they don't know they have plot protection, and therefore would not rely on it. Therefore they would not attack him, which means they will never get lucky and defeat him in their fight, simply because the fight would never happen.

 

Whether or not Rahvin decides to face them head on depends on a number of factors - if masses of AS arrive in Caemlyn, backed by armed guards, no surprise if he realises something is up. Send in a couple to engage him while a couple more sneak in under the radar means he doesn't run because he won't see the knife until it strikes. And women have ways of finding male channelers - in a situation like Aran'gar in Salidar, Rahvin is at the disadvantage of them knowing he is a man, rather than not knowing about a saidin channeling woman. As for planning, they know there is a Chosen, they know who he is. That's a start. Caemlyn is not a complete unknown.

 

And how long does that couple have to engage him for? Moiraine, the strongest Aes Sedai in the WT, apart from Cadsuane, who really doesn't bother with the WT, lasted all of a few seconds in front of Lanfear, and Lanfear was barely paying attention to her. The first group that attacks him would last no longer than she did. The second group would not even have time to plant a knife in his back. Not to mention that by the end of tFoH, Rahvin has wards set up, so good luck sneaking up on him. Which is why knowing he is a Chosen and knowing he is posing as Gaebril, is barely any help at all. They have no idea what he is capable of, or how much he knows. They don't know what they're facing. If Rand had not known what to expect from Sammael, he would have died. But he knew to a certain extent what to expect from an AoL channeller, and probably more precisely from Sammael.

 

Also the Aes Sedai might have ways of finding male channellers, but those are channellers who might not even know they're channelling, and if they do, they know close to nothing about it. Which is definitely not the case of Rahvin, who, if he does not want to be found, is very unlikely to be found. Not to mention that with the number of men in a city the size of Caemlyn, and Rahvin's ability to disguise himself with the power, they'd have an easier time finding a needle in a haystack. They would be as incapable of finding him as of finding Arangar. And while they're looking, he'll be picking them off one by one, with them being completely unable to know there is man channelling at them, until it's too late. It won't take very long for the Aes Sedai to realise that they're in a death trap.

 

When Rand started with Asmo he couldn't even reliably grasp the Source - that's not a sign of having the basics down, that is a sign of the basics being absent.

 

Are you sure about that? I remember that at the beginning of tSR, he could have trouble grasping the source at times, but quite some time passes between that and the end of the book. What is more, when he does succesfully grasp the source, he can clearly do plenty of things that the girls could never have done when they arrived at the WT.

 

When Egwene went to the Tower, she had already received some teaching from Moiraine.

 

Very little, she knew how to grasp the source and little more.

 

After leaving, she recieved more from the Wise Ones.

 

Did she? I thought all they taught her was dreaming and dreamwalking. Afterall why would Wise Ones be teaching what they believe to be a full Aes Sedai to channel.

 

And the Seanchan.

 

Good point, I'd forgotten that. Only Egwene though.

 

And Nynaeve and Elayne spent time on a Sea Folk ship, and so saw some of their weaves. Maybe not the most useful thing in combat, but their knowledge extends beyond that of the WT.

 

Maybe Elayne did. Nyneave was busy throwing up.

 

Asmo was apoor teacher starting with a student who new virtually nothing. When the girls got to the WT they had some grasp of the basics, and teachers with more experience of teaching (albeit less to teach). That's hardly advantage Rand.

 

Rand was capable of far more when he got Asmodean as a teacher, than the girls were when they arrived at the Tower. They were incapable at that point of doing anything Rand did during tSR. Also Asmodean might have considered himself a poor teacher, but it doesn't take a great teacher to demonstrate weaves to someone, which is mainly what Rand wanted. And he didn't just have more to teach, he had better, far more advanced things to teach.

 

The right knowledge pops into his head. The same happens to the girls - maybe not in fights, but it happens nonetheless. The principle is exactly the same. It happens less for the girls because they lack his insanity and they lack his number of fights where such knowledge is needed.

 

Not exactly. I would say that for the girls, it's not that knowledge suddenly pops into his head, it's that they weave something by instinct, often due to emotion, precisely without knowing what they're doing. Then they'll realise what they did, and I either remember it or not, probably depending on whether they were paying attention what they were doing or something else. This kind of thing probably happens to Rand too, afterall it seems pretty common. But in addition to that he has knowledge that comes from LTT, which is knowlegde that often comes at exactly the right time, and it's also fairly advanced weaves. He also knows exactly what he's doing when he does it. He doesn't necessarily what it'll do, but he knows what he's weaving. He suddenly thinks something like "Fire, spirit, and earth, weaved so", which shows that he knows what he's doing. He just doesn't know how he knows. This doesn't happen to the girls, simply because they don't have the memories from one of the greatest channellers of the AoL coming from their subconscious. They have the first type, which happens to everyone, and is completely random. The knowledge from LTT is hardly random, it comes when he needs it, such as when is in a fight for his life.

 

To an extent. But it is still possible to raise shields - even shields against everything. Like Rand did. Rand didn't know what he was shielding against but did it anyway.

 

She can use a shield, yes, but there has to be effects that can be shielded from. Does it keep out weaves as well? In any case, I would be very surprised if Elayne knows such a weave which Rand describes as dreged up from LTT's memories.

 

It is stated that they know. Whether they knew then or not, I'm not sure off the top of my head, but they certainly know by the end of the series.

 

You're sure about that? They've never faced male channellers, so how could they have demonstrated their ability? They don't need to cut a woman's weaves since they can see the weaves and just block them. In WH, when Elayne meets Taim she says she knows little more than the theory of what's probably cutting a man's weaves. But the theory won't be nearly enough against Rahvin. Asmodean said it's very hard to grasp without a partner of the opposite gender to practice against, and indeed, Rand doesn't succeed until he fights against Lanfear, and the understanding of how to do it clearly comes from LTT. The girls have no one to practice against. The girls would be going into a fight against Rahvin hoping to master the skill on their first try. Not a very good idea.

 

Rand and Rahvin can see each others weaves. So it is easier for them to cut each others weaves, and Rahvin has more experience of cutting eaves, and things like reversing weaves, but it is harder for the girls and Rahvin to cut each others weaves.

 

Rand and Rahvin don't need to cut each other's weaves. They can see them, therefore they can block them. Cutting is only necessary against people using the opposite side of the source.

 

If Rand isn't going to use the advantages the Asha'man give him it renders them moot.

 

He can still use them to fight the rebels. Just don't make them slaughter people who may not be guilty. Use them in places where there will be no controversy, no reason to be hesitant. If rebels are harassing his armies, there is no reason for Ashaman, whether andoran or not, to not fight them. It's more in a case like executing villagers who you think might be helping the rebels, where there could be an issue.

 

Except they do have a reason to attack him. How else are they to remove one of the Chosen from the throne of Andor? Say, "Please will you fight our battles for us, Rand?" So Elayne has a good reason to move against Rahvin - she undoubtedly would have done if Rand had not done it first.

 

She wouldn't if it means nearly certain death. Going to Rand for help is probably the only thing that could even the odds somewhat. Asking the Aes Sedai to come help her would as well of course, but it would lead to the problem discusse above, which is that Rahvin would not fight them head on. So yes she should ask for his help. Not ask him to take care of everything, but ask him to lend a hand, because otherwise it would be nearly impossible to defeat Rahvin.

 

You ignored my point. It is not Andor's job to deal with channelers. It is not Illian's. It is not Tear's. It is the Tower's. Saying the WT cannot do its job is not a positive.

 

True, but a Forsaken is not any random channeller. The average channeller would be the WT's problem, as well as that of the country he is in. But a Forsaken, just like a false dragon such as Amalasan, is, if he becomes powerful enough. the whole world's problem, not just the WT's. Which is why asking Rand for assistance with a Forsaken should be just fine. Of course she shouldn't yell it out loud, that she's asking the DR to help them with Mesaana, especially with the situation in ToM, but asking someone's help is not saying they can't do the job without that help (afterall they did), it's just giving yourself the best chance possible. Dealing with the Forsaken is as much Rand's job as it is the WT's, perhaps even more, as he is the one best suited for it. Refusing to ask for his help is simply being overproud, not wanting to admit that he could be very helpfull to a fight that, in truth, concerns him quite a bit.

[Cybertrolloc]

Remember, the girls didn't skip 4-6 months like the boys did. Also tSR is actually pretty short time-wise as is FoH. LoC is months, then the remaining books are back to being a short amount of time.

 

However, I think Rahvin despite having hubris on a Beth-angar level would probably flawless victory an Eg/El/Ny attack at that point. Aes Sedai...nah, at least throwing a decent amount of them into it is going to mean a few BA. At that point, the Forsaken usually do make intelligent use of their abilities off the top of my head.