[ADVANCED/KITCHEN SINK] The Axe or the Hammer - GAME OVER

[Nolder]

not asking you for a full reread was just wondering what the heck I did that you're voting me

Meesh is crazy and Wombat is trying to be sly I think but it doesn't seem like you're following along with either of them

just doin' your own thing so that's what has me curious

well that and I just don't like being voted lol

[mmeeshal]

Ugh, I have a random anxiety attack, so I'm probably going to just go away again after this....

 

I am well aware the only person you're calling crazy is me, Nolder, but the fact that you're doing it at all and not in a friendly, non-game-related way is what I'm responding to, although I don't appreciate the attack anyway. But I've learned to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume all personal attacks are due to maneuvering of some sort.

 

Thus, the conclusion I draw is that you are getting rude because you have no real defense and you are hoping to either provoke a reaction that will distract from you, or to successfully discredit anything I have to say.

 

If you'd prefer that we all believe you're just rude on your own, we can do that too, but you'll have to suffer the consequences.

 

 

To everyone else, notice how the people getting the brunt of Nolder's...charms...are the two people voting for him. Wombat's had some comments but no vote, and look...no attack.

 

Coincidence? I think not.

[bhskeeper11]

I think Sakaea looks the most scummy at the moment. The last day phase was going back and forth between Red and BG. They both stack up and get about halfway to a lynch and that's when Sakaea flips on Red, completely turning the tide against Red.

 

Red flipped Lightsworn turned Dragonsworn... but does that mean Sakaea wasn't already Dragonsworn?

 

It took me forever to read through this whole game... I have no doubts that I "missed out" on the feel of the game in the beginning by just reading everything at one time, but it seemed like Sakaea supported/defended BG for a while, then later claimed Mason when she was the popular lynch candidate, goes against BG when Red is the other target, and flips on Red when those votes against Red keep stacking up.

 

It just seems fishy.

 

Vote Sakaea.

Since I am already monologuing, I just want to say this is ridiculous to me. From Red's coroner report we KNOW she was a town neighborhood watch team with Kae until Red was recruited. In order for Kae to have been Dragonsworn before Red she would have had to have been recruited N2. Based on how Kae was able to smoke out Red for not posting on their QT it seems fairly obvious the same would have occurred day 3 if Kae had been recruited then.

 

I think the only obvious thing to come out of yesterday (aside from there being a cult is that Kae was confirmed as town at that point. She got her list today so it would make sense that she was not recruited last night either.(unless she made up today's list)

 

That this was Kate's first real post of the game is somewhat odd to me. Maybe teammates pointed this direction?

 

You asked to hear from me Kae and I didn't vote you like Corro(Kate) did. and did again.

 

Here especially the bolded made me think of something I said about Corro before.

One of his posts reminded me of my first mafia game, when I was a scum. I was near of getting lynched, and my scumbuddies advised me to write a post about how I'm a newbie and haven't totally got the game. Corro's post was pretty much exactly like mine then. I'll search and post them after this, I still can't use the multiquote.

 

 

As Corro is now Kate, I think it's worthy to watch after her. I'm not totally convinced about her being a scum, just saying that can be possible too.

 

Well, I'm very much not a new player; I've played my fair share of DM games. I posted my observations and Turin, who is by all appearances the scummiest player at the moment, suggested that I'm being coached.

 

 

First Hi Tina. Welcome to the game.

 

Second. Unvote: Vote BG for consolidation. Ledinna or maybe Nolder for tomorrow.

 

Finally, vote No Deadline. Let's just take care of business.

 

I honestly can't remember what Turin said that made me comment about him earlier, Meesh, but on reread this strikes me as odd. Voting someone for consolidation is usually something people do at deadline, but it is quite clear from this post that at this time we didn't even have a deadline. So why is Turin bandwagoning for consolidation's sake? Could be he wants more pressure on BG, but if that were the case, why not say that instead of using this weird phrase of consolidation. Idk, my favorites for cult leader right now are Turin and Nolder. I would be willing to vote either one.

 

 

lol that's what you're basing your case off?

oh wait no you can't even remember what you're basing your case off

scummy wombat is scummy

and since when am I linked to Turin?

explain yourself well or I'll be voting you soon I think

 

To me, saying that one of you is the cult leader does not equate to you both being cult. At least, I did not interpret it this way.

 

 

*says lots of filthy things*

oh Meesh you know just how I like it

let's take this somewhere private

Sorry, I'm taken. I think I'd get quite the talking-to if I were to stray...not to mention all the dirty looks and whatnot from everyone else.... >.>

 

I also found it kind of strange that he didn't use the convenient excuse of being vote controlled (which is what I thought was going on at first because the vote was so out there)

This whole post feels really weird to me, but this part in particular I think is really pointless...this has already been addressed, Nolder. If he were to falsely claim his vote being controlled, he'd instead be going up against Kae, since the vote control action was not on the list she gave us, and that would be much harder to do than going up against you, because there's much more evidence in favor of Kae than there is in favor of you.

 

So, assuming Maw is scum or cult, which is what you're insinuating you believe if you think he would have used an excuse to cover his vote (because that would have been lying), what possible, logical reason would he have had for lying about something that would draw so much more attention to him?

 

So yeah...again...that whole post of yours doesn't really even make sense. You seem a bit...graspy.

 

I feel like Meesh was quite wishy-washy in her casing of Wombat (let's face it, quoting a dozen posts of a single player with your feelings about each one is pretty much textbook definition of casing) about which posts pinged and which ones didn't and how she thought other players were more scummy now that she had read through, etc.

 

However, I really agree with her point here that unless someone was going against Sakaea, claiming vote control would be stupid when her list does not feature that. That would be asking for votes, since the general feeling at the moment appears to believe in Sakaea's innocence.

[Turin Turambar]

Kate, my comment regarding you and possible teammates was not in reference to your experience and skill level. I know you are a good player or you would not be in Lily's game. To me your choice did not make sense, and as you had just recently come into the game it is conceivable that it may have been suggested that you float a balloon to see if people would be willing to lynch Kae. Or at least to throw a little suspicion her way to be used later. You were the best choice since you were just added and could back off using that you had just read this monster of a game and missed something.

 

I did bring up that Corrosive voted Kae earlier in the game at a time she was considered very much town. He nearly got lynched for it too. If Spirit hadn't stepped in it worse he most likely would have. Now you have voted her again at a time that most consider her the most likely town player.

 

Ledinna mentioned Corrosive's problems and that HE may have been coached. No one is suggesting you were told what to do but perhaps that it was mutually decided that you were the best choice to make the case against Kae.

 

I'm the scummiest player in the game? based on that one statement? I'll have to go back and check but IIRC I was voting Nolder at that time. I (and many others) thought BG to be very scummy at that time. I am still not sure about him and really believe Maw was the one who saved his bacon with that day viewing. I was basically stating that I thought BG was a good enough candidate that I was willing to change my vote to him since a Nolder lynch wasn't going anywhere at that time. I voted "no deadline" because I believed that the town could come together and reach a controlled lynch (on BG) without the artificial deadline. Let me ask this, If I had voted deadline would you have thought that better or worse?

[bhskeeper11]

Kate, my comment regarding you and possible teammates was not in reference to your experience and skill level. I know you are a good player or you would not be in Lily's game. To me your choice did not make sense, and as you had just recently come into the game it is conceivable that it may have been suggested that you float a balloon to see if people would be willing to lynch Kae. Or at least to throw a little suspicion her way to be used later. You were the best choice since you were just added and could back off using that you had just read this monster of a game and missed something.

 

I did bring up that Corrosive voted Kae earlier in the game at a time she was considered very much town. He nearly got lynched for it too. If Spirit hadn't stepped in it worse he most likely would have. Now you have voted her again at a time that most consider her the most likely town player.

 

Ledinna mentioned Corrosive's problems and that HE may have been coached. No one is suggesting you were told what to do but perhaps that it was mutually decided that you were the best choice to make the case against Kae.

 

I'm the scummiest player in the game? based on that one statement? I'll have to go back and check but IIRC I was voting Nolder at that time. I (and many others) thought BG to be very scummy at that time. I am still not sure about him and really believe Maw was the one who saved his bacon with that day viewing. I was basically stating that I thought BG was a good enough candidate that I was willing to change my vote to him since a Nolder lynch wasn't going anywhere at that time. I voted "no deadline" because I believed that the town could come together and reach a controlled lynch (on BG) without the artificial deadline. Let me ask this, If I had voted deadline would you have thought that better or worse?

 

Oh, I know you were not referring to my skill level. Me quoting you in that last post was just for the sake of keeping the relevant info together.

 

I threw out some observations and a vote, because I normally don't wait this long to put a vote out. However, as you and Des pointed out, it was a premature move on my part as it really was my only true observation to that point. I still stand by what I meant in that post -- the timing of her switch on Red seemed scummy to me. Am I saying that she is necessarily scum for it? No.

 

I moved my vote after you or Des (can't remember which of you) pointed out the lists again. I considered that and realized it would be quite difficult for the lists to be fabricated early in the game because someone could look and say, "hey, my role isn't on that list, they must be making it up." No one has done that yet, so it stands to reason that the list is still true.

 

I meant that you appear the scummiest player because of vote counts. More people seem to think you are anti-town than anyone else, based on votes. I do not personally believe you are anti-town at the moment; I haven't really gotten any bad anti-vibes from you yet. If I thought you were the scummiest player, I would have voted for you by now. I've gotten some pings off of Nolder, but I ALWAYS have pings off of Nolder, so for now I'm trying to see what else is out there.

[Nolder]

Ugh, I have a random anxiety attack, so I'm probably going to just go away again after this....

 

I am well aware the only person you're calling crazy is me, Nolder, but the fact that you're doing it at all and not in a friendly, non-game-related way is what I'm responding to, although I don't appreciate the attack anyway. But I've learned to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume all personal attacks are due to maneuvering of some sort.

 

Thus, the conclusion I draw is that you are getting rude because you have no real defense and you are hoping to either provoke a reaction that will distract from you, or to successfully discredit anything I have to say.

 

If you'd prefer that we all believe you're just rude on your own, we can do that too, but you'll have to suffer the consequences.

 

 

To everyone else, notice how the people getting the brunt of Nolder's...charms...are the two people voting for him. Wombat's had some comments but no vote, and look...no attack.

 

Coincidence? I think not.

what? of course it's game related dude

I'm sorry if it came off as something else

[Nolder]

lol that's what you're basing your case off?

oh wait no you can't even remember what you're basing your case off

scummy wombat is scummy

and since when am I linked to Turin?

explain yourself well or I'll be voting you soon I think

 

To me, saying that one of you is the cult leader does not equate to you both being cult. At least, I did not interpret it this way.

this is the only way it makes sense to me

if we've both displayed (to wombat) cult leader traits then how could both of us not be in the cult?

if he said we're both scummy that's different but he specifically said cult leader

[dapianoplay3r]

So I just went through the thread and here is what I found (it's been shortened cos my net died halfway through and I lost about half the quotes I had lined up and had to quickly go find them again but without using multiquote)

 

#210

Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:28 PM

Thanks Mmmmmmmmmeesh. It really is exciting to play in a WoT themed game.

 

It's getting late for me so just a few quick notes. First off, Unvote As I do not know why Arlow had placed his vote.

 

The entire interplay between Nolder and Soy and then Nolder and Pandy was interesting. I think there might be something going on with Nol and Soy. The argument did seem a little weird. Added to Nol's nearly condescnding brush off of Pandy leads me to question him.( I did like the semi A Few Good Men ref tho)

 

At this point I will vote Nolder.

 

This is basically his first game related post of the game. He does none other than get linked to Nolder by calling him out and voting him. The best way to distance yourself from team mates is to call them out on faults

(this wouldn't have normally caught my eye except Nolder is now trying to deny any links to Turin) Nolders paranoidness and Wombat's pointing it out

 

Posted 02 December 2011 - 04:58 AM

That's probably fair enough. My only (bad) defense is that I still don't really get the whole D1 tricks for casing folks on the small things. It takes me a little longer to figure things out. For me to be all "FoS at player X for being the fourth person to post about topic Z." Is not me and feels wrong. Even commenting on the Nol/Soyo thing is a total crapshoot. I guess it is about laying a groundwork of previous statements to look at later. I am better at analyzing the history of the posts with refrence than digging out the clues as it were.

 

All that said it has been overall quiet lately with the obvious exceptions that most are aware of. I'll read it again and see what I can find and try to give some thoughts.

 

I'm not aware that you did provide any thoughts. I also want to add that it is not later in the game and I don't think you have provided any history analyzing

 

First Hi Tina. Welcome to the game.

 

Second. Unvote: Vote BG for consolidation. Ledinna or maybe Nolder for tomorrow.

 

Finally, vote No Deadline. Let's just take care of business.

The thing everyone is going on about. I think it is scummy but I also think that we have made too much of it. I think people are missing the last bit out and it's important. I think it shows Turin's intent. If he Doesn't believe the need for a deadline because we will get a lynch why put a constraint on that would let scum slip in a quick vote to avoid "missing the deadline"

 

Nolder- Posted 08 December 2011 - 08:05 AM

Turin Turambar, on 04 December 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

Very funny Soy. That whole capital code might catch on in certain circles. Off to bed now. Hopefully Ledinna will have posted by then.

interesting that your vote is on BG but you're concerned about Ledinna posting

if you want BG lynched why don't you say anything to make people switch to BG?

I'm getting the feeling you just didn't want to be on Ledinna's lynch

like scum separating themselves so they can't be connected as easily...

hmmm

I kinda agree with this sir

Turin's response

5.) When I got back to look at the game BG had "claimed" and Dinna was at L-1. It was pretty clear unless she had some goood answers she would be lynched. I wanted to hear her response as it has seemed that everything was happening here when I was away. If her answer was unacceptable to me I was willing to vote her but wanted to hear what she had to say.

I feel like you didn't address the issue but made a good job of talking round it

 

Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:46 AM

I stated above I don't really believe BG's finder claim. it looks to me that Levity was not familiar with the DM mechanics and so got confused by her result and BG's statement. I also think that Loki made some decent points towards his lynch. With that I think I'll stay with voting BG.

 

 

Vote: BG

I feel that this post would read town if you were one of the first few to be voting. However you are near the end. The place where a scum would feel like they could get a lynch on someone they knew was town and very likely a finder.

 

Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:26 PM

Ok, I've not been around so much. I work weekends and then my main computer crashed Saturday night. I just got a backup running and tracked down my passwords today. Womby said I sounded sheepish. I assume this to mean you think I was following along with what others said? I stated before that I have difficulty with the early stages of play when there is little to go off and the tiniest thing is considered reason for lynching. There were some posts that made some sense to me so I agreed with them. BG's claim is not totally believable to me. I think I've been consistent on this. Maw has vouched for him and everyone has decide to back off him because of that. I can understand that. There hasn't been anything to this point to indicate that Maw is mafia.

 

I would like to hear more from some of the others who have been less than active.(pot:kettle yeah)

 

I don't see BG going anywhere at this point so Unvote. I will do some rereading and see where I intend my vote to go.

That last bit really bugs me. It seems like you are saying that even with the evidence if it looked like a lynching option you would take it? That seems to go against what you just said about you understanding the back off due to Maw

 

Posted 13 December 2011 - 04:54 AM

I didn't vote her yet. I was wondering if it read the same to others. I am trying to find something reasonable to vote on. If there are other like minded people then I would be willing to go there.

Once again you openly say you will go with the people. This makes me almost believe you are town just because you admit to going where the votes are so openly

 

Posted 13 December 2011 - 01:28 PM

Well that seems like a lot of info for 1 night and 2 days. How did you get said info? My understanding is that masons generally don't have other abilities. This is a kitchen sink game so I guess anything is possible.

 

Also, what do those roles do? i could not find them in the wiki. vote- controller sounds self explanatory. But how does it work? The controller sends in a name and Mod tells them who to vote for. A silencer? what is that? The affected person can't post? Levity has already claimed a redirecting role so i guess that is covered.

 

You voted Mmeesh based on her asking after Nolder. In your opinion how likely is it that these roles are town? how likely mafia?

To me this seems like you are fishing to see how the players think this role will work so that you can spin it to your advantage. This leads me to believe you may even be the vote controller

 

Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:06 PM

Great news. Sevanna dead. great day.

You seem over the moon

 

If Soy was a Lie Detector, then the "check" was his action. Does that sound right?Also, no Vote Control. That seems kinda odd. Not that I am complaining about that.

Why is there no vote controller do you think. ATM you are my best bet on who it is

[This post (the one I just quoted) is very rolefishy. I think Turin is worried about multiple Lie Detectors and wants to know if there is any possibility of his being lie detected before he tells us a whopper.Vote: Turin

What do you think the "whopper" is?

 

There was no protect? does that mean Nyn got blocked? Mafia must have wanted her bad.Obviously I am not silent. I think everyone wants to hear from BG.

Turin, this whole post doesn't sit well.

It didn't sit particularly well with me but not enough to quote, let alone vote. Why did you do that ed?

 

rolefinshy? I am not as experienced as many of you guys but I could not conceive of there being 2 Lie Detectors in a game. I mean a back-up cop and doc sure but a second or back up Lie Detector? If you have had that before I would be surprised. I was curious about the "check" action once Kae and Red revealed their complete lists. I asked and even Kae who I believe is experienced said she did not know what it was. I thought I had figured it out and was curious if I was right.

I like this post. You turn wombat's musings into your own naivety thus meaning you don't have to reveal what you were possibly setting up for. It's really quite neat and tidy

 

 

To me that just adds to inactivity in the game, Ed. If putting forth information or asking questions leads people to think you are a bad guy, people will just sit on the sidelines and vote for whoever has a few votes to avoid random lynches. Then the mafia win by just getting a train started with little real reason and letting the quiet people hop on cause no other cases are being made. This leads me to look at those that moved on me without really having a cause. That's you, Womby, Des and Kae. I still believe Kae is likely town. I think I will take a closer look at the rest of you.

Please do take a look. You never seem to make a full case. Even your "monologue" was just a few quotes ranging over many people. It didn't really have a goal in mind I felt

 

 

I had originally decided that Turin was town. But now redoing it after my net stuffed up I don't. I feel like he is scum or cult. I can't really explain the change other then maybe it was the in depth reading rather than skimming? (I gather quotes by skimming, can't reread something this big right now). I hope this made sense. It took a long time with a huge interruption in the middle (I started at noon and its just passed midnight now when I'm finishing)

So VOTE TURIN

------------------------------------------------------------

Also Wombat has been niggling at me. I think that it's because you have defended the finder claim so... passionately. Never lynch an uncountered finder. You seem so adamant. Never a doubt. But aren't you one for taking risks in a game. Surely when he was in some doubt (strong doubt) you could have even conceded there might have been some merit in it? This leads me to think that you had some other reason to believe his claim. Something you didn't tell us. Maybe it was mafia knowing who the town was or maybe something esle. IDK. It's just bugged me

 

Are you gonna recruit us tonight, Nolder?

who is "us"?

That also caught my attention again. Who is "us" Ed. You have been also niggling me this whole time and maybe tomorrow ill take a look at you (what little there is)

 

 

Something I would really like someone to take a look at is the Cauthon killing. Specifically my action. I had forgotten about it till the reread. I said I would vote and I didn't. Very scummy I know and I was FOSd for it. The funny thing is all the people who said I warranted a looking at never did. So I believe that someone that FOSd me (not all) was scum jumping on a path that could potentially lead to a lynch of a town. I think when the bigger opportunity presented itself they didn't have the need to continue it. I believe there is a clue there but I can't put my finger on it. I feel like I'm to involved to look at it impartially and would like someone else just to take a look and see what could pop up

[ed2funy]

Because I thought it was scummy and warranted a vote. Duh.

 

No Fishy, Wes. I won't reveal him! XD

(Calm down y'all. I can't.)

[mmeeshal]

I feel like Meesh was quite wishy-washy in her casing of Wombat (let's face it, quoting a dozen posts of a single player with your feelings about each one is pretty much textbook definition of casing) about which posts pinged and which ones didn't and how she thought other players were more scummy now that she had read through, etc.

 

This is why I've been adamant in calling it "not a case." Because whether you like to admit it or not, when you think "case" you think "proving a point." Which is not at ALL what I was doing. Again, it was more of an exercise, for my sake as well as everyone else's. For me, it was a reread of Wombat's posts to refresh my memory and see if I still had a reason to be suspicious of him. For you guys, it was pointing out which posts gave me the bad feelings in the first place that led me to place my vote, but giving thoughts on them now as well because, as I saw, not everything was as bad as I remembered it to be.

 

So I wasn't being "wishy-washy," I was being honest and giving my thoughts as I had them, as they came up, as I was reading through.

 

Honestly, you people are annoying.

 

 

And no worries, Nolder, my whole point is and was that I think you're scum and that's why you're being rude.

 

@Ed--really? Now that is interesting...

[Nolder]

I don't think I'm being rude really but whatever

 

I think you are and have been unreasonble concerning me this entire game from the moment I asked you and BG to stop bickering

and where would we be if I'd joined you and Soy in it huh? down a cop maybe?

I don't think you're scum but you're just not seeing clearly where I'm concerned and at this point yeah I'm writing you off as "crazy" because I'm just tired of arguing with you about every little thing I do

to you I'm scummy, let's just leave it at that

[WWWwombat]

Where are we at with votes?

[mmeeshal]

Lazy....

 

Just from Ama's last vote count....

 

Unofficial Votal:

 

Turin (5) - Ed, Womby, Des, Kae, Player

Nolder (2) - Maw, Meesh

Maw (1) - Nolder

 

Not voting - Verb, Ishy, Turin, BG, Ledinna 2.0, Kate, Tina

 

15 players = 8 to lynch

[WWWwombat]

Cool. Anyway, I don't see how saying both Nolder and Turin both look cult is different from saying two people look scummy in a normal game. I am not saying they are both definitely cult, just that they look cult. Also, team connections are not always obvious. I hadn't seen anything to link them together and I hadn't seen anything that would suggest they are opposed either. I don't need to link them in order to make a case on both and I didn't even try. The fact that Nolder got all paranoid about a possible link between him and Turin is the only thing that links them imo. That being said, such a reaction is strong evidence should one of them flip scum.

[Nolder]

where the heck is everyone?

I think we're butting heads because there's like only 3 of us really posting

[Nolder]

Cool. Anyway, I don't see how saying both Nolder and Turin both look cult is different from saying two people look scummy in a normal game. I am not saying they are both definitely cult, just that they look cult....

if you're saying we both look Cult you're linking us to the same team

how can you not see that?

[Nolder]

and I'd like to know what it is exactly that made you think we're Cult Leader as those are two very specific things

why not just say scum?

[WWWwombat]

You could be mafia, Nolder. I had a feeling for a little while that you might be the silencer. Still haven't shaken it completely. Still, you and Turin are my best bets for cult leader.

[Nolder]

well speaking of oversights I believe Sakaea (and Red) proved I was silenced with their lists

I don't know if it's the norm for a Silencer to be allowed to target themselves (or whether they'd even want to?) but is that what you're accusing me of?

Or rather what you formerly thought?

 

edit: also I'll note you didn't actually answer my question

[WWWwombat]

You are doing that thing you do when you are scum again. You are nitpicking and asking people repeatedly to state their cases when they have already been stated. It's pretty much a spammier version of a WHYME=FRYME tell. I don't have any reason to think you are Cult Leader, Nolder, I just think you are scum. As for Turin, the reason I think he is Cult Leader is his rolefishing about the lie detector action. You see, BG isn't much of a threat to the cult (as long as the leader isn't on his radar) because he can always be recruited, but a hidden lie detector, now that would be a threat wouldn't it? Either way, you are both really good bets for scum and therefore solid bets for Cult.

[Nolder]

I'm pretty sure I do this regardless of alignment

but if you think you have a tell on me that's cool I guess

you're wrong in this case but whatever

 

as for Turin

it looks to me like he was offering up a thought and asked for feedback and you jumped on him for it

even in a game this size who would be expecting/worried about two lie detectors?

and where is this "whopper" you were expecting Turin to drop? surely he wouldn't hold it back if it was important to tell even IF he was afraid there might be another LD

I think you just completely blew his post out of proportion and made an excuse so you could vote him

it was a scummy move and now you're trying to cover it by calling me scum for calling you on it nitpicking

[WWWwombat]

I was expecting multiple lie detectors.

I don't know what lie Turin was planning on telling or even if he was planning to lie; I only suspect.

And why would someone tell a lie (regardless of how important it was) if they knew there was a lie detector?

[Nolder]

I was expecting multiple lie detectors.

well that's convenient

also weird

why would you expect multiple? it's a very powerful role

 

And why would someone tell a lie (regardless of how important it was) if they knew there was a lie detector?

how would he know there's a LD in the first place?

[WWWwombat]

Anyone who has read the rules carefully should have suspected lie detectors.

[dapianoplay3r]

Rule 13 I believe gives that away Nolder