Egwene, Lying to World Leaders

[Mats Spare Hat]

Only if he wears a turban, with a feather at the same time.

[Agitel]

Actually, Rand should just write down about a thousand different strategies and put each one in an envelope, put the envelopes in a big sack and tell Mat to pick one.

 

Genius.

[Luckers]

Has it occurred to anyone that the 'reason' Rand told the plan in this perplexing manner, and Egwene reacted so strongly without examining the issue more thoroughly was simply that Brandon needed Rand to know the Amyrlin's anger as per the notes, and didn't have the time [as a writer] to develop a more complex situation with character based reasons for the confrontation?

 

This is precisely why I whine on and on about more time being taken for the writing, because the trade off with speed of production is this really blunt, lowest common denominator plotwork.

[MasterAblar]

Has it occurred to anyone that the 'reason' Rand told the plan in this perplexing manner, and Egwene reacted so strongly without examining the issue more thoroughly was simply that Brandon needed Rand to know the Amyrlin's anger as per the notes, and didn't have the time [as a writer] to develop a more complex situation with character based reasons for the confrontation?

 

This is precisely why I whine on and on about more time being taken for the writing, because the trade off with speed of production is this really blunt, lowest common denominator plotwork.

 

Maybe, but I think we're all hoping for there to be a better explanation than that, because that would be extremely unsatisfactory. I mean, it would be kind of ridiculous for characters to oppose each other for absolutely no reason, then the author needing to get a foretelling in, and not having time to have it make sense. Perhaps the pattern is just forcing them to act stupidly.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Has it occurred to anyone that the 'reason' Rand told the plan in this perplexing manner, and Egwene reacted so strongly without examining the issue more thoroughly was simply that Brandon needed Rand to know the Amyrlin's anger as per the notes, and didn't have the time [as a writer] to develop a more complex situation with character based reasons for the confrontation?

 

This is precisely why I whine on and on about more time being taken for the writing, because the trade off with speed of production is this really blunt, lowest common denominator plotwork.

 

I really hope it is not the case. Do you really believe it is that bad? I've thought that at least the outline of Rand's and Egwene's confrontation was in the notes. I've made a number of fairly critical remarks about the writing of the new books, but I wouldn't have thought the major point of the plot could be made up on the spot by Brandon, without serious consideration.

[Suttree]

Perhaps the pattern is just forcing them to act stupidly.

 

Time constraints due to the pattern being controlled by Tom Doherty...

[David Selig]

It's not like we don't have plenty of cases of characters being forced to behave stupidly and/or completely out of character for plot reasons throughout the first 11 books...

[Luckers]

Has it occurred to anyone that the 'reason' Rand told the plan in this perplexing manner, and Egwene reacted so strongly without examining the issue more thoroughly was simply that Brandon needed Rand to know the Amyrlin's anger as per the notes, and didn't have the time [as a writer] to develop a more complex situation with character based reasons for the confrontation?

 

This is precisely why I whine on and on about more time being taken for the writing, because the trade off with speed of production is this really blunt, lowest common denominator plotwork.

 

I really hope it is not the case. Do you really believe it is that bad? I've thought that at least the outline of Rand's and Egwene's confrontation was in the notes. I've made a number of fairly critical remarks about the writing of the new books, but I wouldn't have thought the major point of the plot could be made up on the spot by Brandon, without serious consideration.

 

If you listen to the Fantasy Faction interview, Brandon speaks about his method of writing a first draft and he states, essentially, that he writes it just with plot points in mind, and later goes back and edits for prose and character work and so forth. This is how he can churn out a 400,000 word novel in a year, but it does not leave time for 'serious consideration', and the short breadth of the edit period (which has been acknowledged directly by Team Jordan) doesn't lend itself to the post-production polish... all of which means, yes I do believe that lowest common denominator plotting is occuring.

 

I mean think about it, say the notes state: 'Rand goes to Tar Valon after Dragonmount and meets Egwene, who grows angry with him over his plan for the seals', which based on Brandon's own comments is about as far as the notes on scenes that Jordan hadn't written would go. Which is precisely what that scene reads like--indeed, instead of saying that Brandon has 'made it up on the spot', it might be a fairer criticism to say he wrote too specifically to the notes. Instead of developing specific, character driven nuance to hold the argument, we have a dumbed down Egwene sticking tenaciously to a non-specific last minute throw in dream, and an aloof Rand no bothering to explain his logic, or even gesture to the existence of it in order to allow the pretense of anger where, under the circumstances there should be none.

 

Nor is this the only occurence--in fact, to one degree or another I believe the vast majority of the plot work suffers from this. Take Graendal's attack on Perrin, for instance. It reminds me of the thing about keeping a five year old advisor, and not doing anything they could think of. Instead the feel is clear--Graendal needed to lose to Perrin--rather then figuring out how to get to that point in a way consistent to both characters, he simply made one dumb, enabling the other to attain victory.

 

And yet I thoroughly loved TofM the first time I read it. I think it is because it holds both plot-gratification and fan gratification--by which I mean he hits the plot points, and plays to fan expectations and desires, and so Egwene is all clever and bad-ass when dealing with the Aes Sedai, who are dumb foolish nitwits back, allowing Egwene to show them up in a way that is satisfying to the fans... right up until she meets with Rand, who stands higher in fan esteem, and therefore she becomes dumb herself allowing Rand to show her up, and gratify the fans. Same goes with that meeting with Perrin and the dumb trick with the ropes...

 

This method enables fast production, the hitting of the plot points, and a feel of gratification for the fans. It does not permit polish or nuance, and to some degree actively undercuts character work. At least in my opinion. And that's were I'll cut myself off and stop ranting. Feel free to tear it apart. Certainly I know there are those who are grateful just to learn what happens--I was also, incredibly so, and initially I had a very positive response to his works. But as more and more time passes, and the high brought on by the new plot information fades, I find I struggle more and more with tGS and TofM. I genuinely like Brandon--he's wonderful, and has always been nice to me... but yeah. I struggle. Sorry. :(

[SuperFade]

Luckers, if any of the villains in the Wheel of Time had a five year old child advisor the Shadow would have won around book two or three. Then again most villains in fiction could do with reading the Evil Overlord List.

[water_seeker]

Has it occurred to anyone that the 'reason' Rand told the plan in this perplexing manner, and Egwene reacted so strongly without examining the issue more thoroughly was simply that Brandon needed Rand to know the Amyrlin's anger as per the notes, and didn't have the time [as a writer] to develop a more complex situation with character based reasons for the confrontation?

 

This is precisely why I whine on and on about more time being taken for the writing, because the trade off with speed of production is this really blunt, lowest common denominator plotwork.

 

I really hope it is not the case. Do you really believe it is that bad? I've thought that at least the outline of Rand's and Egwene's confrontation was in the notes. I've made a number of fairly critical remarks about the writing of the new books, but I wouldn't have thought the major point of the plot could be made up on the spot by Brandon, without serious consideration.

 

If you listen to the Fantasy Faction interview, Brandon speaks about his method of writing a first draft and he states, essentially, that he writes it just with plot points in mind, and later goes back and edits for prose and character work and so forth. This is how he can churn out a 400,000 word novel in a year, but it does not leave time for 'serious consideration', and the short breadth of the edit period (which has been acknowledged directly by Team Jordan) doesn't lend itself to the post-production polish... all of which means, yes I do believe that lowest common denominator plotting is occuring.

 

I mean think about it, say the notes state: 'Rand goes to Tar Valon after Dragonmount and meets Egwene, who grows angry with him over his plan for the seals', which based on Brandon's own comments is about as far as the notes on scenes that Jordan hadn't written would go. Which is precisely what that scene reads like--indeed, instead of saying that Brandon has 'made it up on the spot', it might be a fairer criticism to say he wrote too specifically to the notes. Instead of developing specific, character driven nuance to hold the argument, we have a dumbed down Egwene sticking tenaciously to a non-specific last minute throw in dream, and an aloof Rand no bothering to explain his logic, or even gesture to the existence of it in order to allow the pretense of anger where, under the circumstances there should be none.

 

Nor is this the only occurence--in fact, to one degree or another I believe the vast majority of the plot work suffers from this. Take Graendal's attack on Perrin, for instance. It reminds me of the thing about keeping a five year old advisor, and not doing anything they could think of. Instead the feel is clear--Graendal needed to lose to Perrin--rather then figuring out how to get to that point in a way consistent to both characters, he simply made one dumb, enabling the other to attain victory.

 

And yet I thoroughly loved TofM the first time I read it. I think it is because it holds both plot-gratification and fan gratification--by which I mean he hits the plot points, and plays to fan expectations and desires, and so Egwene is all clever and bad-ass when dealing with the Aes Sedai, who are dumb foolish nitwits back, allowing Egwene to show them up in a way that is satisfying to the fans... right up until she meets with Rand, who stands higher in fan esteem, and therefore she becomes dumb herself allowing Rand to show her up, and gratify the fans. Same goes with that meeting with Perrin and the dumb trick with the ropes...

 

This method enables fast production, the hitting of the plot points, and a feel of gratification for the fans. It does not permit polish or nuance, and to some degree actively undercuts character work. At least in my opinion. And that's were I'll cut myself off and stop ranting. Feel free to tear it apart. Certainly I know there are those who are grateful just to learn what happens--I was also, incredibly so, and initially I had a very positive response to his works. But as more and more time passes, and the high brought on by the new plot information fades, I find I struggle more and more with tGS and TofM. I genuinely like Brandon--he's wonderful, and has always been nice to me... but yeah. I struggle. Sorry. :(

 

That pretty much sums it up...Brandon is a brilliant writer...I love his other works...but this is so big and he's under so much pressure to get it done that he just can't take the time to make it perfect...so he's making it the best he can under the circumstances.

[kght22]

egwene can lie on paper no more than she can lie in voice. the rod lets you lie to yourself, and if you can believe that lie, you can say it, write it, or do anything else with it.

 

but egwene is aes'sedai through and through. she lacks much of the experience that an aes'sedai of 120 years would have, if she were an ogier she wouldn't likely even be allowed to contradict her parents. but even if she had elder aes'sedai parents telling her where to go or what to think, she would still think the same thing, that breaking the seals is insane and recklessly dangerous. she is acting as an aes'sedia in adulthood on this issue.

 

no word she speaks in her letters is an overt lie, it is all from her perspective, and based on her priorities. loose respect for her if you will, but she believes what she is saying, and thinks that she has a large amount of information (she in fact has a small desert plate sitting next to a banquet)

 

she is likely wrong in her assertion, but there is no plan in place yet. she is right to try to force at least a confrontation.

 

but that is where rand comes in. rand KNOWS that his declaration to eqwene will set one of the most agile powers in the world in motion and result in a massive MASSIVE number of people at his meeting. probably bring people that he couldn't summon himself.

 

if there is a fight at the start or during that meeting from unknown non shadow forces, or even shadow forces, he cant predict that, he also is likely wise enough now to know that he shouldn't try to. he must do what he must do, those against him will do what they will, he is planning to drive them into responding to his moves, but i doubt he is dumb enough to think he can do such a thing without knowing he doesn't know everything that is happening. eqwene doesn't even think she knows everything going on, and she seems to think she knows more than she does.

 

the fact is with rand's little move he has done a little trick. while there will be darkfriends at their little meeting, he has concentrated the forces of the world, pulled them away from anywhere that any deserters could quickly help the shadow in the south, while placing them in position that even without the one power they could at least try to repulse the blighters.

 

he doesn't know what will happen beyond having up to a million, and maybe more people, in place to speak to him. and i think them hearing him was what he really wanted.

 

he wants to show aes'sedai what they are.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Luckers you couldn't mean...I mean, you don't mean to say...No..no, you wouldn't possibly be suggesting!

 

*Gasp!

 

Sandertarding?

 

[kght22]

Luckers you couldn't mean...I mean, you don't mean to say...No..no, you wouldn't possibly be suggesting!

 

*Gasp!

 

Sandertarding?

 

 

i do believe he dares, although the plot point of which he speaks should have had lots of notes about it, it was a blatant foretelling.

[SuperFade]

Luckers complains about Sanderson a lot. His characterisation of Cadsuane, the actions of Zen Rand, the assumption that Sanderson is somehow bigging Rand up (Like the Paralis-net scene with Cadsuane) and now this scene as well. Still, to each his own I guess.

[gloweye]

I don't think he has... there will be to much people at Team Jordan to allow for to-hastly writing, and i think they like the books to much for this...

 

However, Brandon is under hight pressure, from for example all of us here, to do it quicker than might be good for the story.

 

Back on-topic...

Egwene is just a recalcitrant 20-year old girl who is to stubborn to listen to or even have trust in her ex-boy friend. She does have Nyn to tell her he's protected from madness....(or is that after this that Nyn discovers that? Strange, such a not-remembering...)

[kght22]

I don't think he has... there will be to much people at Team Jordan to allow for to-hastly writing, and i think they like the books to much for this...

 

However, Brandon is under hight pressure, from for example all of us here, to do it quicker than might be good for the story.

 

Back on-topic...

Egwene is just a recalcitrant 20-year old girl who is to stubborn to listen to or even have trust in her ex-boy friend. She does have Nyn to tell her he's protected from madness....(or is that after this that Nyn discovers that? Strange, such a not-remembering...)

 

if you wanna get back on topic, go up to my message before last on this thread, for me it is at the top of this page

[Luckers]

Luckers you couldn't mean...I mean, you don't mean to say...No..no, you wouldn't possibly be suggesting!

 

*Gasp!

 

Sandertarding?

 

 

 

No. I appreciate the joke, but I like and respect Brandon too much to let that term sit for my negative feelings about the work he has produced.