Egwene, Lying to World Leaders

[MasterAblar]

I'll be clear: I don't like what Egwene did. At all. She lied to them, to draw them to her and get them on her side, despite the fact that it puts their nations at risk. She decieved them. However, despite that, and despite the fact that I suspect that she also has the rather less noble intention of simply drawing those nations back under the WT's influence, the fact remains that she is doing it because she believes it's what best, and most importantly because she feels that the enemy they must focus on is the Shadow. That's something I can appreciate, because it's taken too long for people to finaly realise that the Last Battle is happening now. Is she misguided? Yes. Was it dishonnest? Definitely. Did she decide what was best, for them? Unfortunately. But is it all for a good cause? Thankfully, yes.

[MasterAblar]

I can see why him breaking the Seals would be cause for alarm, but... the Prophecies say that the Dragon has to win at TG... Has nobody thought about that wording? It doesn't say "the Amyrlin, using the Dragon as a tool" or anybody else. So if he has to be the one to win it, doesn't it follow that it will have to be his master plan that does it in the end?

 

This made me laugh seeing how Rand has told Min he doesn't know how to seal the bore and she needs to find a way for him. So it has to be his master plan?

 

I think what Sylvan Fox is saying is that, seeing as Rand is in the end the key to defeating the DO, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose that he might know something they don't, or maybe that there is a reason that it must be him. Opposing him outright, because he said he was going to do somehing they disagreed with, something that has quite a bit to do with the DO, which is supposed to be the DR area of expertise, before even hearing his explanation as to why he wants to do this (I know, I know. Rand is the one who didn't want to explain right there, but he said he would at the FoM), seems rather foolish. They should be more cautious before dismissing the Dragon Reborn's ideas, at least when they are so pertinent to his purpose in the Last Battle.

[Suttree]

I can see why him breaking the Seals would be cause for alarm, but... the Prophecies say that the Dragon has to win at TG... Has nobody thought about that wording? It doesn't say "the Amyrlin, using the Dragon as a tool" or anybody else. So if he has to be the one to win it, doesn't it follow that it will have to be his master plan that does it in the end?

 

This made me laugh seeing how Rand has told Min he doesn't know how to seal the bore and she needs to find a way for him. So it has to be his master plan?

 

I think what Sylvan Fox is saying is that, seeing as Rand is in the end the key to defeating the DO, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose that he might know something they don't, or maybe that there is a reason that it must be him. Opposing him outright, because he said he was going to do somehing they disagreed with, something that has quite a bit to do with the DO, which is supposed to be the DR area of expertise, before even hearing his explanation as to why he wants to do this (I know, I know. Rand is the one who didn't want to explain right there, but he said he would at the FoM), seems rather foolish. They should be more cautious before dismissing the Dragon Reborn's ideas, at least when they are so pertinent to his purpose in the Last Battle.

 

No I get that view and I def don't want to get into another "plan" debate, was mainly joking. It's just funny to me that it's on Min to find out this crucial piece. The Baerlon Unified School District must be one of the best in Randland. We will just have to see how it plays out at the FoM.

[MasterAblar]

I can see why him breaking the Seals would be cause for alarm, but... the Prophecies say that the Dragon has to win at TG... Has nobody thought about that wording? It doesn't say "the Amyrlin, using the Dragon as a tool" or anybody else. So if he has to be the one to win it, doesn't it follow that it will have to be his master plan that does it in the end?

 

This made me laugh seeing how Rand has told Min he doesn't know how to seal the bore and she needs to find a way for him. So it has to be his master plan?

 

I think what Sylvan Fox is saying is that, seeing as Rand is in the end the key to defeating the DO, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose that he might know something they don't, or maybe that there is a reason that it must be him. Opposing him outright, because he said he was going to do somehing they disagreed with, something that has quite a bit to do with the DO, which is supposed to be the DR area of expertise, before even hearing his explanation as to why he wants to do this (I know, I know. Rand is the one who didn't want to explain right there, but he said he would at the FoM), seems rather foolish. They should be more cautious before dismissing the Dragon Reborn's ideas, at least when they are so pertinent to his purpose in the Last Battle.

 

No I get that view and I def don't want to get into another "plan" debate, was mainly joking. It's just funny to me that it's on Min to find out this crucial piece. The Baerlon Unified School District must be one of the best in Randland. We will just have to see how it plays out at the FoM.

 

Oh, good I didn't really want to get into another debate about that either. I've been in so many of them that by now I could probably just repost some previous posts on the topic and it would be the same. And yeah, it is rather odd that Min's really the one that everything is depending on now (which also makes me fear she's going die), though I think it's a nice touch. It shows that Rand can't do everything on his own.

[Suttree]

I can see why him breaking the Seals would be cause for alarm, but... the Prophecies say that the Dragon has to win at TG... Has nobody thought about that wording? It doesn't say "the Amyrlin, using the Dragon as a tool" or anybody else. So if he has to be the one to win it, doesn't it follow that it will have to be his master plan that does it in the end?

 

This made me laugh seeing how Rand has told Min he doesn't know how to seal the bore and she needs to find a way for him. So it has to be his master plan?

 

I think what Sylvan Fox is saying is that, seeing as Rand is in the end the key to defeating the DO, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suppose that he might know something they don't, or maybe that there is a reason that it must be him. Opposing him outright, because he said he was going to do somehing they disagreed with, something that has quite a bit to do with the DO, which is supposed to be the DR area of expertise, before even hearing his explanation as to why he wants to do this (I know, I know. Rand is the one who didn't want to explain right there, but he said he would at the FoM), seems rather foolish. They should be more cautious before dismissing the Dragon Reborn's ideas, at least when they are so pertinent to his purpose in the Last Battle.

 

No I get that view and I def don't want to get into another "plan" debate, was mainly joking. It's just funny to me that it's on Min to find out this crucial piece. The Baerlon Unified School District must be one of the best in Randland. We will just have to see how it plays out at the FoM.

 

Oh, good I didn't really want to get into another debate about that either. I've been in so many of them that by now I could probably just repost some previous posts on the topic and it would be the same. And yeah, it is rather odd that Min's really the one that everything is depending on now (which also makes me fear she's going die), though I think it's a nice touch. It shows that Rand can't do everything on his own.

 

I like that too, we all saw what happened when Rand tried to take almost everything himself.

 

It's just while on the topic how people gained their skills I think Min reading a few of Herid Fel's books and all of a sudden becoming an expert in "high and natural philosophy" and the nature of the wheel is the most far fetched of all. But hey if she succeeds Baerlon Community College will have it's first Nobel Prize Winner.

[AshaShan]

It's just while on the topic how people gained their skills I think Min reading a few of Herid Fel's books and all of a sudden becoming an expert in "high and natural philosophy" and the nature of the wheel is the most far fetched of all. But hey if she succeeds Baerlon Community College will have it's first Nobel Prize Winner.

 

What Min's doing is not philosophy, she's trying to translate the written prophecies concerning Rand and the Last Battle. Something that a girl who has been able to see the future for most of her life has a notable advantage in doing.

[Suttree]

It's just while on the topic how people gained their skills I think Min reading a few of Herid Fel's books and all of a sudden becoming an expert in "high and natural philosophy" and the nature of the wheel is the most far fetched of all. But hey if she succeeds Baerlon Community College will have it's first Nobel Prize Winner.

 

What Min's doing is not philosophy, she's trying to translate the written prophecies concerning Rand and the Last Battle. Something that a girl who has been able to see the future for most of her life has a notable advantage in doing.

 

As far as I know she is doing both, in terms of sealing the bore Fel gave the hint about "clearing away the rubble". Min has been reading his books and Rand in ToM says.

 

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

[Kaznen]

And Min is focusing on a very narrow field of high and natural philosophy. Sometimes the key is to look at a problem with fresh eyes that don't have the assumptions and prejudices of an experienced scholar.

 

Similar to Nyn's skill in Saidar. She didn't spend years getting indoctrinated with the "do's and don'ts" of channeling the way everyone else at the WT has, she didn't even have the channeling 101 that all novices have.

 

Back of Topic....

I think Egwene gets to have a front row seat to the "White Tower Loses Most of It's Influence" show.

[Kahsm]

Just as it was starting to get dull around here.

 

The problem I have with this scene is that Egwene effortlessly uses the laguage of strategy and geopolitics. She does not consult with anyone on her letters to the world monarchs. Seriously? At least this we have not seen her ever learn, but apparently she has no problem at all with "cushions", armies, strategy and language of diplomacy/geopolitics. And she was surprised that Rand spoke like an educated man! At least he had LTT...

 

Pretty sure she has a map.

 

She is a full fledged Aes Sedai, in ways of thinking, acting and manupulating people to do what she thinks is best. Nothing new here.

 

Yep. Just like she spent 5 minutes with the Aiel and was, like, super uber Aiel-like, now shes spent 5 minutes being Aes Sedai and is more Aes Sedai than any of them.

 

Maybe if she spent 5 minutes with Rand she could teach him a few things about the Age of Legends.

 

Hate on Egwene because she's a quick learner over the course of two years.

 

Love the ta'veren because their plotlines revolves around literal deux ex machina keeping them alive and progressing.

 

It's funny, isn't it?

 

A simplification, but still true.

 

The issue is, those deus ex machina are justified in-universe. The whole taveren thing is clearly a litterary device to justify the main characters going very quickly from bumbling morons (more or less) to outright badass leaders, but it's still a justification. One that Egwene does not have.

 

Also Perrin's axe wielding. No reason for a "wolf" to have an affinity to axes. Lan showed him "enough not to kill himself" and yet he can slaughter whitecloaks and Aiel galore with that thing and we've never even seen him train, most of the time he complains about having it. But Egwene, the one who clearly LOVES to learn things, is somehow unreasonable.

 

Also... her fast learning is not a reason to dislike the character. Go start a, "Why I hate Robert Jordan" thread.

 

As for that scene, I guess you must REALLY hate Thom then if politics bothers you. I mean if Egwene is Satan for writing that, I can't imagine how you feel about Thom forging signatures, and getting people assassinated with lies and false rumors. You must just skip his scenes since it would be so vial for you to read.

[MasterAblar]

Just as it was starting to get dull around here.

 

The problem I have with this scene is that Egwene effortlessly uses the laguage of strategy and geopolitics. She does not consult with anyone on her letters to the world monarchs. Seriously? At least this we have not seen her ever learn, but apparently she has no problem at all with "cushions", armies, strategy and language of diplomacy/geopolitics. And she was surprised that Rand spoke like an educated man! At least he had LTT...

 

Pretty sure she has a map.

 

She is a full fledged Aes Sedai, in ways of thinking, acting and manupulating people to do what she thinks is best. Nothing new here.

 

Yep. Just like she spent 5 minutes with the Aiel and was, like, super uber Aiel-like, now shes spent 5 minutes being Aes Sedai and is more Aes Sedai than any of them.

 

Maybe if she spent 5 minutes with Rand she could teach him a few things about the Age of Legends.

 

Hate on Egwene because she's a quick learner over the course of two years.

 

Love the ta'veren because their plotlines revolves around literal deux ex machina keeping them alive and progressing.

 

It's funny, isn't it?

 

A simplification, but still true.

 

The issue is, those deus ex machina are justified in-universe. The whole taveren thing is clearly a litterary device to justify the main characters going very quickly from bumbling morons (more or less) to outright badass leaders, but it's still a justification. One that Egwene does not have.

 

Also Perrin's axe wielding. No reason for a "wolf" to have an affinity to axes. Lan showed him "enough not to kill himself" and yet he can slaughter whitecloaks and Aiel galore with that thing and we've never even seen him train, most of the time he complains about having it. But Egwene, the one who clearly LOVES to learn things, is somehow unreasonable.

 

Also... her fast learning is not a reason to dislike the character. Go start a, "Why I hate Robert Jordan" thread.

 

As for that scene, I guess you must REALLY hate Thom then if politics bothers you. I mean if Egwene is Satan for writing that, I can't imagine how you feel about Thom forging signatures, and getting people assassinated with lies and false rumors. You must just skip his scenes since it would be so vial for you to read.

 

Well, while his wolf senses might not give any advantage with wielding an axe, it probably gives him an advantage in fighting. Hearing better in particular I would guess. As for him being good with an axe, I always figured it was a combination of practice and taveren. His taveren ability made people in his army learn fast, so I suppose it could do the same with him.

 

I never complained about anyone learning fast. I just explained why it's not the same for her as for Rand, Mat or Perrin. I find her ability to learn a wide variety of skills fairly quickly to be rather unrealistic, but I don't particularly care about it. Like The Mistress of Baal said up thread, it might even be justified by her being around taveren so much, and them needing her to learn those skills.

 

I can't say I care much for politics, no, but they are sometimes necessary, and in Egwene's case, like I said she did it because she's trying to fight he Shadow as best she can. Even if the way she's doing it is misguided, her intentions are good. However there a few key differences between Thom and Egwene's actions. Thom was doing it to protect Rand, so he did not have any personal interest in it, and he did it against a High Lord who I believe was plotting against Rand in the first place, so I don't particularly care much for that person in the first place. Egwene on the other hand, is partly doing it to strengthen the WT, which is all fine except she's doing it by lying and being dishonest to Monarchs, which isn't something I particularly care for. These are also Monarchs who are quite clearly on the good side, they're with Rand, so it's not the same as a High Lord who is planning on betraying Rand. It also affects more people than the High Lord that Thom had assasinated, who, quite frankly, is probably no great loss to the people of Tear. In fact it puts at risk two entire nations, Tear and Illian. Maybe what she did was necessary, at least to her, but it's not likable in any way. It doesn't extremely bother but since it was brought up I felt I might as well say what I thought about it.

[Suttree]

I never complained about anyone learning fast. I just explained why it's not the same for her as for Rand, Mat or Perrin. I find her ability to learn a wide variety of skills fairly quickly to be rather unrealistic, but I don't particularly care about it. Like The Mistress of Baal said up thread, it might even be justified by her being around taveren so much, and them needing her to learn those skills.

 

Think there might be something to this actually...

 

ToM

"Egwene," Rand said, voice echoing in the chamber. He nodded to her, as if in respect. "You have done your part, I see. The Amyrlin's stole fits you well."

[Kahsm]

I never complained about anyone learning fast. I just explained why it's not the same for her as for Rand, Mat or Perrin. I find her ability to learn a wide variety of skills fairly quickly to be rather unrealistic, but I don't particularly care about it. Like The Mistress of Baal said up thread, it might even be justified by her being around taveren so much, and them needing her to learn those skills.

 

Think there might be something to this actually...

 

ToM

"Egwene," Rand said, voice echoing in the chamber. He nodded to her, as if in respect. "You have done your part, I see. The Amyrlin's stole fits you well."

 

ahem

[MasterAblar]

I never complained about anyone learning fast. I just explained why it's not the same for her as for Rand, Mat or Perrin. I find her ability to learn a wide variety of skills fairly quickly to be rather unrealistic, but I don't particularly care about it. Like The Mistress of Baal said up thread, it might even be justified by her being around taveren so much, and them needing her to learn those skills.

 

Think there might be something to this actually...

 

ToM

"Egwene," Rand said, voice echoing in the chamber. He nodded to her, as if in respect. "You have done your part, I see. The Amyrlin's stole fits you well."

 

ahem

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get cocky now.

[Haggis]

I don't really see any real lies.

 

Andor is considered a cushion nation now? If anything, Andor is the most cushioned nation as Illian, Ghealdan, and Murandy hold the Seanchan at bay, Carhienen the Aiel at bay, and the Borderlands the Shadow at bay. Furthermore, how is this logical? The shadow is a greater threat to Tear when it is seperated by thousands of miles, wheareas the Seanchan are considered a lessar threat when they are only hundreds of miles away?

 

Andor is a cushion nation. As long as a threat comes from the north then Andor stands between Tear and it.

 

And were talking about an end of the World army of shadowspawn. I deal with the seanchan any day.

 

Essentially, she wants Tear left defenceless, and an attempt to persuade Rand not to break the seals. This is the same fallacy the borderlanders engage in when they meet with Rand. How does bringing thousands of troops help your cause? When the Borderlanders did it, they basically opened up their nations to invasion. Moreover, she knows that she is putting Tear at risk by asking Darlin to bring all his men. Not only that, but she chooses not to inform him that the Seanchan have learnt travelling. The worst part is the claim that Illian is there as a buffer state for Tear, this may be true, but all legitimacy of that claim goes out the window when she later asks Illian to bring all their troops as well.

 

 

She trying to pressure him into NOT HANDING OVER THE WORLD ON A SILVER PLATTER! And Rand wants her to do this. He pretty much manipulated her into doing this.

 

The seanchan are pretty fast, but not that fast. How are they going decide to move out, take over Illian, test for channelers, and move in on tear before they move before their forces return.

 

Perhaps because she doesn’t know. As far as she knows they were able to shoot down the kidnappers, what was the chances of one of three people who knows how to travel in the tower being caught.

 

Because not agreeing with Egwene means that you are intimidated or Ta'varened by Rand? Furthermore, Illian is the nation most at risk by the Seanchan, they are still fighting a war down there, yet Egwene wants Gregorin to send all his troops to the FoM as well? She is essentially submitting two nations to the Seanchan to achieve what she wants. AND she does not provide an entirety of details that would allow these two leaders to make an informed decision. She misleads Darlin on the strenght of the Illian buffer knowing that she would ask Illian to do the same, and she does not inform them of the Seanchan knowing travelling.

 

He pretty much is intimidated though. In case you haven’t noticed Rand terrifies 90% of the world.

 

Other then that silver platter, etc etc.

 

Is this what this is really about? Tying more nations to the White Tower? To support the White Tower is to serve humankind? Egwene shows that she is willing to sacrifice individual nations to the Seanchan if it helps her achieve her goals. By telling these leaders to do something, but without providing full disclosure of details. She takes away the free will of these nations to effectively decide what is best for them.

 

When it’s the world or a single nation some sacrifice needs to be made. Rand has announced that he doing the one thing team evil has wanted since book 1. She would be a idiot not to pull out all the stops.

[MasterAblar]

When it’s the world or a single nation some sacrifice needs to be made. Rand has announced that he doing the one thing team evil has wanted since book 1. She would be a idiot not to pull out all the stops.

 

I wouldn't say she's an idiot, but it doesn't seem very smart to me to assume that Rand doesn't have any idea what he's doing, just because you don't like what he's proposing. And when you're closest friend and former mentor says it's no big deal, you should at least consider that he might know something she doesn't.

 

She lied when she told Darlin that his nation was safe from the Seanchan for the time being. Which it isn't since the Seanchan have traveling.

 

Also Darlin can't be that intimidated since he sent a written message to Egwene, which Egwene herself says is far riskier than sending a messenger.

[Ala Rubra]

Actually, from what I understand, an Aes Sedai cannot write a lie any more than she can speak one.

 

So Egwene must be doing some spectacular mental gymnastics to justify her letters.

[Haggis]

I wouldn't say she's an idiot, but it doesn't seem very smart to me to assume that Rand doesn't have any idea what he's doing, just because you don't like what he's proposing. And when you're closest friend and former mentor says it's no big deal, you should at least consider that he might know something she doesn't.

 

As far as she knows he's going INSANE! She believes in him enough that she feels he was asking for help. And once again RAND WANTS HER TO DO THIS! She's making her job easier.

 

She lied when she told Darlin that his nation was safe from the Seanchan for the time being. Which it isn't since the Seanchan have traveling.

 

Thank you for reading my full post, but can I point out

 

Perhaps because she doesn’t know. As far as she knows they were able to shoot down the kidnappers, what was the chances of one of three people who knows how to travel in the tower being caught.

 

How can she lie about what she doesn't know?

 

Also Darlin can't be that intimidated since he sent a written message to Egwene, which Egwene herself says is far riskier than sending a messenger.

 

I was talking about the guy from Illian.

[TamTam Rapley]

Actually, from what I understand, an Aes Sedai cannot write a lie any more than she can speak one.

 

So Egwene must be doing some spectacular mental gymnastics to justify her letters.

They amount to lies when you compare them together, however, she wrote them one at a time. This allows her to write whatever she wants to Darlin, only her letter to Gregorin would prohibit her from lying. The letter to Darlin is the variable that affects the Gregorin letter, not the other way around. What she wrote to Darlin about Illian being a buffer state is completely true, and withholding the information on travelling is deciet, not a lie. BUT since she asks Gregorin to send all his troops as well, Illian no longer becomes the powerful buffer state that she implicitly implies to Darlin that it is. This makes her previous words false, but they're are already on paper so she is able to get away with it.

 

To all those people who find this appropriate behaviour as Egwene is a "politician." You're okay with politicians misleading and lying to you? To accept this as a fallacy with the political system is one thing but to not care about corruption and to agree with it another. Moreover, her intentions should not matter, not matter what the circumstances are. Yes, she rightfully agrees the Last Battle must be fought, but to use it justify her actions is unacceptable, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Following your personal beliefs does not make your actions proper conduct. For example, look at the Crusades. Does saying "God wills it!" everytime a Saracen was butchered at Acre make the conduct okay? Sure, they believed it was fine, that it would lead them to the kingdom of heaven, and that it was indeed God's will. This does not make their actions right, I don't claim to know God or even if God exists I doubt he/she would find this to be appropriate conduct in his/her name. The same applies to Egwene, every lies she makes may help her cause which she considers to be just. But how just is her cause and how many people is she willing to sacrifice to achieve it. The phrophecies name the Dragon the commander of the light, not the Amrylin Seat. The difference between Rand and Egwene is that when Rand does commit a wrong action, he knows that it is wrong. He accepts that he is indeed a monster but his actions are necessary. Egwene just considers her actions necessary without also accepting the fact that what she is doing is also wrong.

[Kahsm]

To all those people who find this appropriate behaviour as Egwene is a "politician." You're okay with politicians misleading and lying to you?

 

Fairly certain that Elayne is the only nation leader who is also an Aes Sedai, so this is ridiculous. You don't think other leaders would ever try to play fast and loose with the white tower? Give me a break. Interaction between independent leaders is not the same as screwing with the people you're responsible for, and have authority over.

 

I love how you guys love Egwene SOOO much that it upsets you when she doesn't adhere to the paragon persona you have bestowed her. But lets try to bring it back to earth.

[Suttree]

Following your personal beliefs does not make your actions proper conduct. For example, look at the Crusades. Does saying "God wills it!" everytime a Saracen was butchered at Acre make the conduct okay? Sure, they believed it was fine, that it would lead them to the kingdom of heaven, and that it was indeed God's will. This does not make their actions right, I don't claim to know God or even if God exists I doubt he/she would find this to be appropriate conduct in his/her name.

 

In a world where there is a black/white line between good and evil with proof of The DO and TG approaching this analogy doesn't fit in relation to Egwene's beliefs.

[Kahsm]

Following your personal beliefs does not make your actions proper conduct. For example, look at the Crusades. Does saying "God wills it!" everytime a Saracen was butchered at Acre make the conduct okay? Sure, they believed it was fine, that it would lead them to the kingdom of heaven, and that it was indeed God's will. This does not make their actions right, I don't claim to know God or even if God exists I doubt he/she would find this to be appropriate conduct in his/her name.

 

In a world where there is a black/white line between good and evil with proof of The DO and TG approaching this analogy doesn't fit in relation to Egwene's beliefs.

 

Just to add to what Suttree rightly pointed out. There is no religion in WOT. And that's an RJ statement, not mine. The Good/Evil struggle is very apparent to everyone so there's no need for "faith" as we know it. So again, your analogy is wrong. The evidence as she sees it dictates that this move is "right". And while I disagree, and you disagree, we have more information than she does.

 

And that's mainly because Rand withheld it from her.

[David Selig]

I think it's quite possible that both Darlin and Gregorin are actually acting on orders from Rand ( he mentioned in the Epilogue he had counted on Egwene doing summoning the armies of the world) and whatever army they sent to Merrilor would be according to his wishes. I really don't see them openly defying him and bringing ther full armies without Rand's consent no matter how much the Amyrlin presses them.

[AquilaInfernus]

Just to comment on the rate of learning...

 

If a 13 week uni subject is enough for me to understand the geopolitics of Egwene's letter, why wouldn't a fictional character with more experience not be able to write it? Same goes for Min's philosophy ability. Egwene is even touted as an Amyrlin by Moiraine way back in tDR. Perrin's axe skill is a better target for debate, and then he has Ta'veren and blacksmith muscles to counter that...

 

Also, the letters contain no lies - discounting travelling, which I do believe Egwene does not know the Seanchan have (I could be wrong, can someone find a quote?). Gregorin and Darlin both know of the 1 month deadline for Merrilor, since it is apparent that we read the correspondence halfway through. Therefore her arguments are entirely accurate.

 

Why do so many people completely ignore the internal justification of characters thoughts? Moiraine and Cadsaune get praise and yet we see barely any of their thoughts.

[MasterAblar]

As far as she knows he's going INSANE! She believes in him enough that she feels he was asking for help. And once again RAND WANTS HER TO DO THIS! She's making her job easier.

 

It's what he's saying that she finds insane, he on the other hand sounds perfectly sane as he says them. And her talk with Nyneave and with the Wise Ones, should have made it clear that he's not insane. Whether Rand wants her to be doing this or not, doesn't make it the right thing to do. It just means Egwene is predictable, and that Rand knew how she would react.

 

Thank you for reading my full post, but can I point out

 

Perhaps because she doesn’t know. As far as she knows they were able to shoot down the kidnappers, what was the chances of one of three people who knows how to travel in the tower being caught.

 

How can she lie about what she doesn't know?

 

Also, the letters contain no lies - discounting travelling, which I do believe Egwene does not know the Seanchan have (I could be wrong, can someone find a quote?). Gregorin and Darlin both know of the 1 month deadline for Merrilor, since it is apparent that we read the correspondence halfway through. Therefore her arguments are entirely accurate.

 

In the very scene where she writes the letter she thinks that "Chances were good that the Seanchan had traveling now. Nobody was safe from them, no matter how far or close they might be". So she's perfectly aware that it's quite likely that the Seanchan have traveling. She wants him to take his entire army to the FoM, and says that she can offer gateways back should Tear come under attack. Doesn't change the fact that she's putting Darlin's nation at risk, and decieving him into thinking that there is no risk.

 

To all those people who find this appropriate behaviour as Egwene is a "politician." You're okay with politicians misleading and lying to you?

 

Fairly certain that Elayne is the only nation leader who is also an Aes Sedai, so this is ridiculous. You don't think other leaders would ever try to play fast and loose with the white tower? Give me a break. Interaction between independent leaders is not the same as screwing with the people you're responsible for, and have authority over.

 

I love how you guys love Egwene SOOO much that it upsets you when she doesn't adhere to the paragon persona you have bestowed her. But lets try to bring it back to earth.

 

If the other leaders put the WT at risk and lied to it about the risk, then their actions are just as bad. They're independent leaders, but she decieving Darlin and putting his nation at risk. And she's lying to him because he is essential to her plans.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Just as it was starting to get dull around here.

 

The problem I have with this scene is that Egwene effortlessly uses the laguage of strategy and geopolitics. She does not consult with anyone on her letters to the world monarchs. Seriously? At least this we have not seen her ever learn, but apparently she has no problem at all with "cushions", armies, strategy and language of diplomacy/geopolitics. And she was surprised that Rand spoke like an educated man! At least he had LTT...

 

Pretty sure she has a map.

 

Hehe, is it not written: "I'm so sharp, one of those days I'll cut myself?"

 

I was refering to the language, not to the geography.

She is a full fledged Aes Sedai, in ways of thinking, acting and manupulating people to do what she thinks is best. Nothing new here.

 

Yep. Just like she spent 5 minutes with the Aiel and was, like, super uber Aiel-like, now shes spent 5 minutes being Aes Sedai and is more Aes Sedai than any of them.

 

Maybe if she spent 5 minutes with Rand she could teach him a few things about the Age of Legends.

 

Hate on Egwene because she's a quick learner over the course of two years.

 

Love the ta'veren because their plotlines revolves around literal deux ex machina keeping them alive and progressing.

 

It's funny, isn't it?

 

A simplification, but still true.

 

The issue is, those deus ex machina are justified in-universe. The whole taveren thing is clearly a litterary device to justify the main characters going very quickly from bumbling morons (more or less) to outright badass leaders, but it's still a justification. One that Egwene does not have.

 

Exactly.

 

Also... her fast learning is not a reason to dislike the character. Go start a, "Why I hate Robert Jordan" thread.

 

It is a reason to criticize the writing if the arc forces you to abandon your suspension of disbelief because it is too heavy-handed. I agree that all characters learn too fast and it is a convention we have to accept, but Egwene's arc has something more. She learn very fast, a huge amount of things. The people around her are getting dumped down, most illustious examples being Elaida (obvious), Lelaine and Romanda (the same) and Siuan (compare with Siuan from early books, who I love btw). In Rand's, Mat's and Perrin's cases, they all have competent and important friends and allies who somehow counter their awesomness and make it easier to accept (e.g. Perrin in 2Rs had Tam's and Faile's help, without which he would definitely not suceed. Mat- Talmanes, Vanin, Tuon, Alludra, Thom, Noal. Rand- Cadsuane, Min, the list is just to long. None of the characters dominate over everybody all the time. Egwene had one moment like this in ToM (last scene with Gawyn).

 

 

Back on topic - I agree with Master Ablar. Egwene had acted in a way that was too manipulative and influenced by the need to increase WT influence, but she had TG in mind in first place and her actions were justifiable from her point of view.