Fish can't teach birds to fly

[Rose]

When Semirhage collars Rand and forces him to channel, she says: "Now, if I can remember. . . . The male way of doing this is so odd, sometimes." (TGS, chapter 22). This implies that she knows how to form this weave with saidin. How? Doesn't this contradict the statement that women can't teach men to channel, and vice versa, because channeling saiding is very different from channeling saidar?

 

True, even the way in which the Power is controlled is different. The two halves feel very different. But all it takes to learn that is to link with a channeler of the opposite sex, as we've seen several times since Winter's Heart now. Therefore, it seems that the Aes Sedai got that one wrong.

 

However, even Lanfear thought that only a man could teach Rand to channel.

 

So, what's the deal? Is it or is it not possible? How does it work?

[Roxinos]

Learning to channel is not the same as learning how a given male-only weave works and performing it.

 

Take the difference between female and male traveling, for instance. When Egwene asks Rand how he opens a gateway, he tells her that he punches a hole through the Pattern from the location he is to the location he wants to go. This is not how the female version of traveling works at all. But a woman is still perfectly capable of actually performing that weave with saidar. You know that women can perform the male version of traveling because Moghedien indicated to Egwene that doing so kills the woman (draws her into the space between the weaves of the Pattern).

 

The whole issue with "only a man can teach another man to channel" isn't so much about the weaves as it is about the weaving. That is, only a man understands how saidin feels and works, so only a man can teach another man.

 

It does feel a little bit flimsy when you remember that when a man and a woman are linked, the person guiding the flows can channel both saidin and saidar. So it seems like a woman who has linked with a man often enough would be able to explain how to channel saidin.

[Agitel]

Of course a woman who has spent her days linking with men and learning how to channel saidin can teach a man.

 

But how many women alive in the Third Age have ever actually worked with saidin? They'd be going in as blind as the rookie male channeler would be.

[Terez]

When Semirhage collars Rand and forces him to channel, she says: "Now, if I can remember. . . . The male way of doing this is so odd, sometimes." (TGS, chapter 22). This implies that she knows how to form this weave with saidin. How? Doesn't this contradict the statement that women can't teach men to channel, and vice versa, because channeling saiding is very different from channeling saidar?

This is one of those situations where I'm not sure Brandon's description is consistent with RJ's description of channeling the opposite Power in a circle. Of course, one could say that it's not a circle precisely, that the Domination Band does something different than linking. But then how would Semirhage have any experience with it at all?

 

Rand forms the weaves in the same way as usual with saidar, but the weaves take on a life of their own that he doesn't anticipate. The Aes Sedai who investigate the site remark that they don't recognize the saidar weaves at all, which suggests to them that they were woven by a man. Asmodean tells Rand that he could teach him better if they were linked, and says that if Lanfear had really wanted him to teach much she would have linked them (which is, of course, not true at all - Asmodean could have just demonstrated the weaves), but Asmodean does not suggest that Lanfear could teach Rand if they were linked.

[Lacanos]

1) The Domination Band does not create a circle. The degree of control is much greater - you control their every action and thought.

 

2) I'm sure you could teach weaves using linking and similar methods. However, what you cannot teach is actual control over the Power, and this is arguably the most dangerous part of learning to channel - learning how to embrace the Power consistently, how to maintain the balance, avoiding channeling sickness etc.

[Roxinos]

But how many women alive in the Third Age have ever actually worked with saidin? They'd be going in as blind as the rookie male channeler would be.

 

But we're not just talking about women in the Third Age trying to teach men to work saidin. We're talking about Lanfear forcing Asmodean to teach Rand because she knows she can't. We know for as close to a fact as possible that she has linked with men on many occasions before the drilling of the Bore, and it seems likely that she linked with Beidomon in the drilling of the Bore itself.

 

Rand forms the weaves in the same way as usual with saidar, but the weaves take on a life of their own that he doesn't anticipate. The Aes Sedai who investigate the site remark that they don't recognize the saidar weaves at all, which suggests to them that they were woven by a man.

 

Yes, but that says nothing about how the weaves would work out if Rand had been taught by both a man and a woman. The weaves take on a life of their own because he's using saidin weaves while channeling saidar. If he instead knew the female-equivalent to his own weaves, and used them while channeling saidar, then it follows that there would be no difference. The only significant difficulty is that men find it natural to channel saidin, and the formation of their weaves naturally take on the aspect of saidin whereas female channelers naturally take on the aspect of saidar. No female channeler naturally weaves as if she were channeling saidin.

[LazyMonk]

For 3000~ years no female linked to a man, so the knowledge of weaving saidin is lost to present day Aes Sedai.

Lanfear could have taught Rand but she would have had to link with him and give HIM control of the link. That would give Rand total control over her... There was no way she'd allow THAT!

[Roxinos]

Did Asmodean have to link with Rand in order to teach him? No. Would it have simplified things? Yes.

 

If Lanfear had linked with men in the past, then theoretically, she should know how to weave saidin. She could have taught Rand that.

 

However, what Lacanos said is what was important. That's what people talk about when they say a man cannot teach a woman to channel and vice versa, "However, what you cannot teach is actual control over the Power, and this is arguably the most dangerous part of learning to channel - learning how to embrace the Power consistently, how to maintain the balance, avoiding channeling sickness etc."

[Rose]

I'm sure you could teach weaves using linking and similar methods. However, what you cannot teach is actual control over the Power, and this is arguably the most dangerous part of learning to channel - learning how to embrace the Power consistently, how to maintain the balance, avoiding channeling sickness etc.

 

I would think that it's the opposite. Nynaeve reacts strongly to feeling saidin flooding into her, and how different it it from saidar. And when she passes the control to Rand, he has trouble controlling saidar until she tells him he can't fight it, and has to surrender to be able to guide it. Which he does, and is surprised to see that it works. So it seems that although embracing the Power is the hard part, it can be learned. Although you could argue that even after a lot of practice in a circle, the other half of the source might still feel alien to you, even if you do learn to channel it properly. But it seems possible. The actual weaves are what I don't understand.

 

 

I can't remember where I saw it, I think it was somewhere in TOM, or maybe TGS, but at some point, an Aes Sedai who had bonded an Asha'man commented on channeling saidin through the link with him. She said something to the effect that she was using both saidar and saidin to form the weaves, but they were still "female" weaves, saidin only reinforcing saidar somehow. So, she wasn't actually channeling like a man, she was just using the male half of the source to strengthen whatever she was doing. That's probably similar to what Rand did with Nynaeve: he used saidar, but in male weaves, which fits with what Terez says, and also with Moghedien's comment about Traveling (although we shouldn't take everything she says at face value). So, it seems that linking isn't enough to learn to form weaves in the way that the opposite sex would. But then, how did Semirhage learn?

[Roxinos]

So, it seems that linking isn't enough to learn to form weaves in the way that the opposite sex would.

 

Rand had a specific purpose in mind during the Cleansing. His goal was not to learn how to channel saidar or how to weave female weaves. Hell, aside from channeling and maybe some vague memories from Lews Therin, it's unlikely he would even know that male and female weaves are different. Just because he did not sit down and work through verbally with Nynaeve how each weave works does not indicate that he would be unable to learn how each weave is woven by the opposite sex.

 

But it is unlikely that there is a certain pattern to it that once he has done enough weaving with saidar that he would innately be able to weave saidar in the same way a woman would naturally.

 

But then, how did Semirhage learn?

 

And pulling everything back together, Semirhage was trying to do something specific. She wasn't trying to perform a weave she'd never seen performed before (hence why she indicated that she was trying to remember how to perform a weave). Semirhage was an Aes Sedai, remember? It's likely that she linked with men in the past as well, and it's likely that she learned whatever weave she needed then. Regardless, at some point in the past she learned how to perform a given weave with saidin the way a man would, and she was trying to dredge it from her memory.

[MasterAblar]

So, it seems that linking isn't enough to learn to form weaves in the way that the opposite sex would.

 

Rand had a specific purpose in mind during the Cleansing. His goal was not to learn how to channel saidar or how to weave female weaves. Hell, aside from channeling and maybe some vague memories from Lews Therin, it's unlikely he would even know that male and female weaves are different. Just because he did not sit down and work through verbally with Nynaeve how each weave works does not indicate that he would be unable to learn how each weave is woven by the opposite sex.

 

But it is unlikely that there is a certain pattern to it that once he has done enough weaving with saidar that he would innately be able to weave saidar in the same way a woman would naturally.

 

But then, how did Semirhage learn?

 

And pulling everything back together, Semirhage was trying to do something specific. She wasn't trying to perform a weave she'd never seen performed before (hence why she indicated that she was trying to remember how to perform a weave). Semirhage was an Aes Sedai, remember? It's likely that she linked with men in the past as well, and it's likely that she learned whatever weave she needed then. Regardless, at some point in the past she learned how to perform a given weave with saidin the way a man would, and she was trying to dredge it from her memory.

 

Well, I don't think it was during her time as Aes Sedai that Semirhage learned that particular weave.

[Roxinos]

Heh. You never know. She did turn to the Shadow because she had a choice between being bound on the Oath Rod or stilled, either way giving up her sadistic pleasures. So who knows what crazy weaves she learned while still an Aes Sedai. Haha.

[MasterAblar]

Heh. You never know. She did turn to the Shadow because she had a choice between being bound on the Oath Rod or stilled, either way giving up her sadistic pleasures. So who knows what crazy weaves she learned while still an Aes Sedai. Haha.

 

Quite true, on her own she no doubt learned torture weaves long before she officialy turned to the Shadow, but would she have been able to find a male Aes Sedai just as saddistic as her at the time?

[Roxinos]

What makes you think she couldn't force a male Aes Sedai to do her bidding? She was the most talented Healer the world had ever seen. She was intimately familiar with the body's neurological processes. She enjoyed finding out how people ticked by poking and prodding. She enjoyed manipulating people through pleasure and pain. She liked seeing how far she could push someone through pleasure or pain until their mind broke. What makes you think she wouldn't be able to torture a male Aes Sedai into serving her? Why would he have to be complicit?

[Rose]

Okay, now you got me imagining the Forsaken in a blend of a Tupperware party and a Desperate Houswives scene, where they trade wicked weaves while playing poker and gossiping about the latest Dark Plans for World Domination.

[MasterAblar]

What makes you think she couldn't force a male Aes Sedai to do her bidding? She was the most talented Healer the world had ever seen. She was intimately familiar with the body's neurological processes. She enjoyed finding out how people ticked by poking and prodding. She enjoyed manipulating people through pleasure and pain. She liked seeing how far she could push someone through pleasure or pain until their mind broke. What makes you think she wouldn't be able to torture a male Aes Sedai into serving her? Why would he have to be complicit?

 

True, she may have been able to force a male Aes Sedai to do it, but it isn't a simple weave. As much as that Aes Sedai would want to figure out how to do the weave, in order to escape Semirhage's wrath, it would take a certain amount of imagination and creativity and talent to figure out how to invent a complex torture weave. And Semirhage, as a woman, wouldn't be able to help him with this.

She could torture someone all she wants to make them run the 100m as fast Usain Bolt, if that person doesn't have the talent to do so, they won't be able to do it.

[Kaznen]

Keep in mind whoever is controlling the circle the men are the ones seizing saidin and the women are the ones embracing sadar.

 

Also keep in mind when the forsaken, LTT, or Rand(with LTT's influence) talk or think about the OP they talk about it as a science. They think what they need to accomplish and because they have half a clue of how the OP effects the world they come up with the required weave.

(example: when Rand asked Asmodean how he made Avi's gateway invisible he said it was "simply a matter of bending light" not "take a weave of air like so, earth here, spirit there...")

 

While modern Aes Sedai (except Nyn in the later books) look at the OP as ingredients to a recipe. They only seem to care about what the weave is not how or why it works.

(example: When that one SAS [a gray] jumps ships and reveals she was working for Eliada the whole time and shows her skimming and traveling. She doesn't tell Eliada "you make to places similar in the pattern...." the way Egwene figured it out she said do this, this, and this and Elaida thought she couldn't wait to try the weave herself.)

 

And another way to look at the men/women way of doing things...It's hard while keeping things PG...think of male/female anatomy boys have body parts, hormone cocktails, and muscle/bone structure that are only male. Girls have there own body parts, hormone cocktails, and muscle/bone structures that are only female. The OP is like that also. So a woman trying use saidin is as odd as trying to handle a boys unique body part. For a boy, it's always a part of him, for a girl no matter how well practiced it will still be different. And the opposite for a man trying to handle a unique woman's body part.

 

There are so things only guys can explain to guys, and women explain to women.

[mb]

So, what's the deal?

When a channeler links with the opposite half of the Source, that channeler can do weaves of that half while linked. Both types of adams are similar to linking; though at least 1 differance: the bracelet wearer controlling the weaves.

 

 

The comments about birds & fish I interprete as these::

-Saidar channelers cannot teach saidin.

-Saidin channelers cannot teach saidar.

Both are true.

[Roxinos]

True, she may have been able to force a male Aes Sedai to do it, but it isn't a simple weave. As much as that Aes Sedai would want to figure out how to do the weave, in order to escape Semirhage's wrath, it would take a certain amount of imagination and creativity and talent to figure out how to invent a complex torture weave. And Semirhage, as a woman, wouldn't be able to help him with this.

She could torture someone all she wants to make them run the 100m as fast Usain Bolt, if that person doesn't have the talent to do so, they won't be able to do it.

 

I think something like that is more a matter of knowing how to weave saidin enough to formulate a weave to perform an action to affect reality in a way that she already understands a priori. That is, she has worked with the human body enough to understand its pain and pleasure centers independent of any knowledge she has of weaving the One Power. Granted, it's speculation, but it doesn't seem unlikely that simply having an understanding of male Healing combined with her understanding of human physiology would lead to an understanding of torture weaves. (As Healing and torture are very much tied together.)

[Terez]

So, what's the deal?

When a channeler links with the opposite half of the Source, that channeler can do weaves of that half while linked. Both types of adams are similar to linking; though at least 1 differance: the bracelet wearer controlling the weaves.

Tuon can do that too. Nynaeve also did so with Moghedien.

[Roxinos]

It's hard while keeping things PG

 

The limit is PG-13. And talking frankly of physical sexuality is perfectly within the realm of PG.

 

There are so things only guys can explain to guys, and women explain to women.

 

This directly contradicts your previous statement that the One Power is scientific in nature. That is, it works in specific ways and is not something which is subject to individual subjectivity. That is how Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends studied the One Power and its effects on reality (as you yourself stated). If it is scientific, it is objective. If it is objective, it is not subject to personal comfort. Thus, your analogy doesn't really stand if it is assumed to be inherently scientific in nature.

 

The comments about birds & fish I interprete as these::

-Saidar channelers cannot teach saidin.

-Saidin channelers cannot teach saidar.

Both are true.

 

Congratulations on utterly ignoring the entire thread and responding in an utterly useless manner.

[Kahsm]

When Semirhage collars Rand and forces him to channel, she says: "Now, if I can remember. . . . The male way of doing this is so odd, sometimes." (TGS, chapter 22). This implies that she knows how to form this weave with saidin. How? Doesn't this contradict the statement that women can't teach men to channel, and vice versa, because channeling saiding is very different from channeling saidar?

This is one of those situations where I'm not sure Brandon's description is consistent with RJ's description of channeling the opposite Power in a circle. Of course, one could say that it's not a circle precisely, that the Domination Band does something different than linking. But then how would Semirhage have any experience with it at all?

 

Rand forms the weaves in the same way as usual with saidar, but the weaves take on a life of their own that he doesn't anticipate. The Aes Sedai who investigate the site remark that they don't recognize the saidar weaves at all, which suggests to them that they were woven by a man. Asmodean tells Rand that he could teach him better if they were linked, and says that if Lanfear had really wanted him to teach much she would have linked them (which is, of course, not true at all - Asmodean could have just demonstrated the weaves), but Asmodean does not suggest that Lanfear could teach Rand if they were linked.

 

 

Wasn't the point that he didn't have the strength to? He couldn't show how to make a gateway, for example. If he was linked to Rand he could use his strength, but still allow Rand enough control to break it off if he felt threatened.

[Terez]

If it was just gateways, then maybe, but he was full of excuses.

[Rose]

You don't need to be strong to show someone how to make a gateway. Sorilea could show Cadsuane even though she's very weak and couldn't make one herself.

[Luckers]

It may well be different between men and women on this regard.