A Paradigm Shift (for myself at least)

[Jon Paul]

I never said that Min is a source of determination. But if she can see what their choices will be, and her visions are never wrong, then there is no free will. Simple as that.

 

How is there no free will? She sees the future of the Pattern and is never wrong yes.. all she sees though is the choice that has already been made. The free will of the parties involved has not been removed. It has already been exercised and came to Pass.

 

P.S. I quite like you . I swear, I could sit in a pub with you and debate Scotus vs Aquinas for ever.

[Elan Tedronai]

Disagree with the theory.

 

The Great Lord don't need some dragon to help him get free from his prison. Lanfear and beidomon already bore through his prison using the power.

 

Two, one of the risks with LTT plan to seal the bore was if the seals were not precise enough it would rupture the prison and free the DO completely.

 

If ishy had the Choedan kal, would Lews Therin Telamon matter? No he would get vapourised like everyone else along with the rest of existence

[Roxinos]

 

How is there no free will? She sees the future of the Pattern and is never wrong yes.. all she sees though is the choice that has already been made. The free will of the parties involved has not been removed. It has already been exercised and came to Pass.

 

Because she doesn't just see choices which have already been made. She sees choices which are nowhere near being made sometimes. For instance, she saw that Berelain would fall madly in love, and marry, a man in white. We know that to be Galad. Min had this viewing ages before Berelain ever met or saw Galad. That's predestination. No free will.

[Jon Paul]

Because she doesn't just see choices which have already been made. She sees choices which are nowhere near being made sometimes. For instance, she saw that Berelain would fall madly in love, and marry, a man in white. We know that to be Galad. Min had this viewing ages before Berelain ever met or saw Galad. That's predestination. No free will.

 

It means that Min simply knows what Berelain has chosen to do ahead of time. Her freedom is not restricted by Min's foreknowledge; her freedom is simply realized ahead of time by Min. It has nothing to do with predestination you Calvinist !

[Roxinos]

That's the definition of predestination.

 

If your choice is determined before you make it, then there is no choice. It's already made before you are confronted with the choice. (And if we're talking about a future choice, then every choice involved up to that point is, so some extent, limited to options which enable the predetermined choice to occur.)

 

If you could make a choice, then your choice cannot be determined ahead of time (estimated, yes; that's marketing and economics).

 

This is a common failing that I noticed a lot of people have. They don't fully realize the implications of foreknowledge with regards to free will. So many people I've encountered seem to believe that you can have foreknowledge of events, never be wrong, and yet still have free will.

 

The point of free will is that you can choose to do whatever you want. If you could choose to do whatever you wanted, then your choice cannot be foreseen with 100% accuracy. If there is 100% accuracy in foreknowledge, then you cannot make a choice (you may be presented with a myriad of choices, but if the foreknowledge was 100% accurate, then that's just the illusion of choice).

 

Being presented with alternate options is not the definition of free will. Being able to actually pick any of those options presented to you is what defines free will. And if you cannot pick any option, then you do not have free will.

[Jon Paul]

I think there's been a misunderstanding on my part. I've been approaching this from a Catholic understanding of God, His foreknowledge and our free will. I think what you are saying is that if a person, within the constraints of Time, had foreknowledge, they would lose their free will? In which case I will give my shaky and hesitant agreement with it.

[Roxinos]

No. If any entity has foreknowledge of events, and that foreknowledge is irrefutable (that is, 100% accurate), then there is no free will. Whether or not that entity exists within time or if that entity exists without.

 

This is moving dangerously close to an argument over religion, and I don't want to do that. I would be perfectly happy to move this discussion elsewhere, but as it stands, we're treading too far off-topic. Sorry. :)

[Jon Paul]

No. If any entity has foreknowledge of events, and that foreknowledge is irrefutable (that is, 100% accurate), then there is no free will. Whether or not that entity exists within time or if that entity exists without.

 

This is moving dangerously close to an argument over religion, and I don't want to do that. I would be perfectly happy to move this discussion elsewhere, but as it stands, we're treading too far off-topic. Sorry. :)

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/64109-gods-foreknowledge-and-mans-free-will/

[FarShainMael]

Don't forget transcendence, God's perception of all events in spacetime equally. He sees, not foresees. He is not limited by time as we are.

 

Curiously, the Dark One does seem to be constrained by time: the soul-grab time-window, for example.

 

As for the Pattern, Min has already Viewed an uncertainty:

 

From TSR,Ch47:

 

"Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities. "

 

Now back to topic..

 

It's inherent in the nature of infinity that it does include everything that is possible.

 

The Pattern may not be random, but at each decision-point (such as Rand deciding to marry/not marry Egwene) it branches. All possible branches and consequent branches are explored, in one Turning or another. That's how infinity works.

 

Is there a mathematician out there..

 

Yes, that is how I viewed it but remember Loial's words. A man could move from one farm to another, but he couldn't move to a throne (unless the Wheel wills it of course). What if there are possibilities that simply cannot happen in the Pattern? What if it is simply an infinite loop and not an infinite of possibilities?

 

I said 'everything that is possible'. Perhaps I should have clarified that I meant 'everything that is possible for the Wheel'. That's equivalent to what you've just said.

[Mr Ares]

It is possible for there to be free will in some matters but not others - that is, X must come to pass, but Y doesn't have to. If Z happening would prevent X, then obviously Z cannot happen, but if, like Y, it doesn't impact on X then it may or may not. If Min sees something and knows what it means then it always comes to pass, but she doesn't see everything that will come to pass. Min sees only the things which are set in stone, the times when there is only one possible choice even if there is the illusion of more, except for rare occasions of seeing more than one outcome - in which case, limited choice may exist, and perhaps the illusion of greater choice. While Min only sees the certainties, not the probabilities, that doesn't mean the probabilities do not exist.

[damandred]

It is hinted by moiraine that those chosen by the wheel have next to no choice if they rally against there fate. But for those who except their fate and don't try to fight it there is a limited amount of choice. Which isn't really much of a choice.

Once Min understands a viewing there is nothing she or anyone else can do to stop it.(Though I wonder what the pattern would do if a person who got told such a fate was determind to kil themselves before it came to pass)

[Dream]

Is there any difference between what will happen and what must happen when it always does happen?

I did not say "this must happen, always." I said, "In order for the Dragon to win, the Prophecies must come true; if they do not come true, the Dragon fails."

I understood what you meant. I was just pointing out that it always does happen. None of the Prophecies ever fail unless the Pattern is sufficiently unravelled.

 

 

Min's viewings only apply to certain things, and not all of her viewings are certain. In the relatively few cases where she sees something that will happen, yes, there is no free will in those cases.

Min's viewings always come true, regardless of whether or not she understands them. Even the flip-flopping Viewing about Egwene (perhaps a sign of the Pattern weakening?). The only question is whether Min understands them enough to say something meaningful about them. And if she understands them, she is never wrong about it.

 

 

But the majority of her viewings are not of the definitive, prophetic nature. Rather, they're things like the falcon and hawk perched on Perrin's shoulder (which only really says that Perrin will meet Faile and Berelain, not that he will be with either one specifically).

What do you mean? The Viewing basically states that the falcon and hawk will fight for possession over him. That's exactly what happens. Even if it just meant that Perrin will meet Faile and Berelain, that's also exactly what happens. They always come true. How is that not prophetic?

 

 

Also, the Wheel is most active on the three Ta'veren. And we see that our three Ta'veren have the least amount of free will.

That's not how ta'veren works, though. It doesn't bend their lives to match its will. Rather, it bends the lives of those around them to aid them in the purpose they were designed for.

That's exactly how Ta'veren works. It bends the threads of those around them, but the Ta'veren themselves have the least amount of freedom. Look at Rand; his entire life including birth and death has already been mapped out. Perrin just wants to be simple blacksmith, but the Pattern pushes him into the Hammer wielding Lord of the Light side armies. Mat wants to avoid danger but the Pattern throws him into battle after battle. They each try to avoid their destiny and the Wheel knocks them about until they accept their duty.

 

You inadvertently say it yourself. The Wheel bends other lives to aid Rand, Mat and Perrin. But the Wheel designed Rand, Mat and Perrin for a specific purpose.

[Roxinos]

I understood what you meant. I was just pointing out that it always does happen. None of the Prophecies ever fail unless the Pattern is sufficiently unravelled.

 

None of the prophecies have ever failed. That doesn't mean they can't. They can, but it wouldn't be much of a story if the good guys didn't win. And considering the Prophecies are just an instruction set for the good guys to win? Yeah, they're going to get accomplished. That doesn't mean that in-universe, it isn't possible for them to fail. It is. If it wasn't, then there'd be absolutely no suspense.

 

Min's viewings always come true, regardless of whether or not she understands them.

 

No, you don't get it. Not all of her viewings are concerning something definitely happening. Some most certainly do. For example, the Tinker's death in the beginning of The Dragon Reborn was a vision of something definitely happening. That's one of her visions which is always true no matter what.

 

However, what about her vision of Rand surrounded by darkness with millions of flecks of light appearing and being sucked into the darkness? Whether she understands it is irrelevant, it describes the current state of affairs rather than predicting anything. When Perrin or Mat stands next to Rand, the flecks of light begin to overpower the darkness. Again, the only indicator that vision has is that without Perrin and Mat, Rand stands little chance of overcoming the Shadow. With them, however, his chances are much improved.

 

That's far from a certain vision.

 

How about Min's viewing of Perrin with a falcon and a hawk perched on each shoulder in The Dragon Reborn? Does it have predictive power? Yes! Most definitely! It predicts that Perrin will meet Faile and he will meet Berelain.

 

But does it predict anything beyond that? No. Min's viewing does not decide how things are going to be in all cases. She has two classes of visions, some that are certain and some that are contingent on choice. She has even said that some visions of hers seem uncertain (not that she's uncertain of them, but rather that the vision itself is uncertain).

 

The Viewing basically states that the falcon and hawk will fight for possession over him.

 

No! The viewing as it is first presented in The Dragon Reborn makes no comment as to who Perrin will choose or what the interactions between Faile and Berelain will be. It merely states that Perrin will encounter them. It isn't until later that she sees them fighting.

 

How is that not prophetic?

 

I never said it wasn't prophetic. Please, be assured that I am not saying that Min's visions are not prophecies. I am merely saying that the world of the Wheel of Time allows for free will by having uncertain prophecies. Some of Min's visions are certain, and some are not (they leave room for choice).

 

You inadvertently say it yourself.

 

No, I said it that way quite intentionally. Because I'm trying to make clear that regardless of the purpose that Rand, Mat, and Perrin's lives were designed for, they are all subject to free will. And while the Wheel is quite powerful in its ability to manipulate events, it does not affect free will. At the end of The Gathering Storm, in the chapter "Veins of Gold," Rand could very easily have gone over to the Shadow. That is in contrast to every Prophecy. The fact that he didn't is irrelevant, the ultimate choice is irrelevant to the fact that there was a choice and he was free to make that choice.

 

Regardless of the Wheel's machinations. Regardless of any prophecies concerning Rand. The reason "Veins of Gold" was so terrifying and the reason it was the climax of Rand's character was that it was the ultimate resolution of a conflict. If Rand had no choice in the matter, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the lives of those in the Pattern are utterly subject to the will of the Wheel, then there would have been no conflict. There would be no way that Rand could ever go to the Shadow. But that's clearly not the case.

 

Why would you want to read a story where you know there is no way in hell the good guys could ever lose? I'm not talking in literary terms, 'cause it's quite obvious from a literary standpoint that Rand is not going to die until the end. I'm talking in-universe. If the universe as designed by Robert Jordan simply does not allow the good guys to lose, then where is the conflict? Oh, there's good writing and all that, but that can't be all you attribute to the conflict, is it? Simply good writing? Do you just wave away all possibility that Rand can die, 'cause the Wheel won't let him until his time as come? Do you simply wave away all possibility that Rand can turn to the Shadow, 'cause the Wheel wills him be a champion of the Light?

 

Hey, to each their own. I'm just saying that I think your perspective on prophecy within the Wheel of Time is skewed in a way that only harms the series.

[Dream]

None of the prophecies have ever failed. That doesn't mean they can't. They can, but it wouldn't be much of a story if the good guys didn't win. And considering the Prophecies are just an instruction set for the good guys to win? Yeah, they're going to get accomplished. That doesn't mean that in-universe, it isn't possible for them to fail. It is. If it wasn't, then there'd be absolutely no suspense.

In-universe, the Prophecies have never failed. Nor will they ever, as long as the Pattern holds. This may be unrealistic, and it may create many logical problems, but this is the cosmology of the universe.

 

 

Min's viewings always come true, regardless of whether or not she understands them.

No, you don't get it. Not all of her viewings are concerning something definitely happening. Some most certainly do. For example, the Tinker's death in the beginning of The Dragon Reborn was a vision of something definitely happening. That's one of her visions which is always true no matter what.

 

However, what about her vision of Rand surrounded by darkness with millions of flecks of light appearing and being sucked into the darkness? Whether she understands it is irrelevant, it describes the current state of affairs rather than predicting anything. When Perrin or Mat stands next to Rand, the flecks of light begin to overpower the darkness. Again, the only indicator that vision has is that without Perrin and Mat, Rand stands little chance of overcoming the Shadow. With them, however, his chances are much improved.

 

That's far from a certain vision.

First, Min's Viewings are always about the future.

 

Second, that definitely is a certain vision. Rand can't win without Mat and Perrin. Rand can't win with only one either. Rand needs both of them to stand a chance. This is absolutely true.

 

 

How about Min's viewing of Perrin with a falcon and a hawk perched on each shoulder in The Dragon Reborn? Does it have predictive power? Yes! Most definitely! It predicts that Perrin will meet Faile and he will meet Berelain.

 

But does it predict anything beyond that? No. Min's viewing does not decide how things are going to be in all cases. She has two classes of visions, some that are certain and some that are contingent on choice. She has even said that some visions of hers seem uncertain (not that she's uncertain of them, but rather that the vision itself is uncertain).

Why does it have to predict anything else?

 

You are distinguishing between the two types of Min's Viewings. Those with only one outcome and those with perhaps more than one outcome. If X then Y. If not X then Z. But this doesn't change the fact Min's Viewing will come to pass. If X happens, then Y will happen, whether you want it to or not. And if X doesn't happen, then Z will happen.

 

I presented Min as an example of how the Wheel imposes itself on the free will of the characters in the book. If the Wheel decides that you will marry a person, then you will marry the person. If the Wheel decides that you will stay close to a person or die, then you will stay close to that person or die.

 

 

The Viewing basically states that the falcon and hawk will fight for possession over him.

No! The viewing as it is first presented in The Dragon Reborn makes no comment as to who Perrin will choose or what the interactions between Faile and Berelain will be. It merely states that Perrin will encounter them. It isn't until later that she sees them fighting.

You have your intepretation and I have mine.

 

I never said it wasn't prophetic. Please, be assured that I am not saying that Min's visions are not prophecies. I am merely saying that the world of the Wheel of Time allows for free will by having uncertain prophecies. Some of Min's visions are certain, and some are not (they leave room for choice).

Okay, I do agree that sometimes the Pattern leaves room for choice. I'm not saying the Pattern dictates everyones actions (that's for another topic that I'm not interested in getting into). What I am saying is that when the Wheel wants you to do something, you do it or suffer the consequences. And it will happen exactly as stated. And that sounds alot like a divine intervention.

 

 

No, I said it that way quite intentionally. Because I'm trying to make clear that regardless of the purpose that Rand, Mat, and Perrin's lives were designed for, they are all subject to free will. And while the Wheel is quite powerful in its ability to manipulate events, it does not affect free will. At the end of The Gathering Storm, in the chapter "Veins of Gold," Rand could very easily have gone over to the Shadow. That is in contrast to every Prophecy. The fact that he didn't is irrelevant, the ultimate choice is irrelevant to the fact that there was a choice and he was free to make that choice.

 

Regardless of the Wheel's machinations. Regardless of any prophecies concerning Rand. The reason "Veins of Gold" was so terrifying and the reason it was the climax of Rand's character was that it was the ultimate resolution of a conflict. If Rand had no choice in the matter, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the lives of those in the Pattern are utterly subject to the will of the Wheel, then there would have been no conflict. There would be no way that Rand could ever go to the Shadow. But that's clearly not the case.

We each of us take what we want from the books. For me, VoG was not about the exercise of free will on Rand's part. It was the culmination of the battle for possession of the Fisher King between the Light and the Dark. Rand's only options were to serve the Light or to serve the Dark. Rand is a piece, not a player.

 

 

Why would you want to read a story where you know there is no way in hell the good guys could ever lose? I'm not talking in literary terms, 'cause it's quite obvious from a literary standpoint that Rand is not going to die until the end. I'm talking in-universe. If the universe as designed by Robert Jordan simply does not allow the good guys to lose, then where is the conflict? Oh, there's good writing and all that, but that can't be all you attribute to the conflict, is it? Simply good writing? Do you just wave away all possibility that Rand can die, 'cause the Wheel won't let him until his time as come? Do you simply wave away all possibility that Rand can turn to the Shadow, 'cause the Wheel wills him be a champion of the Light?

You're jumping in and out of "in-universe" here. It makes it hard to understand your point. So I'll just say this: It's a work of fantasy fiction. Not everything can be internally consistent.

 

 

Hey, to each their own. I'm just saying that I think your perspective on prophecy within the Wheel of Time is skewed in a way that only harms the series.

Now this is just over-the-top. I am hesitant to continue any further since you find my perspective harmful to the series?

[Roxinos]

In-universe, the Prophecies have never failed. Nor will they ever, as long as the Pattern holds. This may be unrealistic, and it may create many logical problems, but this is the cosmology of the universe.

 

I agree! However, that doesn't mean that they can't ever fail. Which is the whole point. I would never question whether or not the Prophecies of the Dragon or any of the other prophecies we see come true. They obviously do, and obviously must. But they can fail, and therein lies the heart of everything!

 

Rand can't win without Mat and Perrin. Rand can't win with only one either. Rand needs both of them to stand a chance. This is absolutely true.

 

I didn't say that her viewings weren't always true statements. I said they weren't always certainties about the future. That is, the viewing I specified concerning Rand, Mat, and Perrin does not say whether or not they will win. Merely that they must all be together to win. Do you understand?

 

One statement is "Rand, Mat, and Perrin will win." The other is, "Rand, Mat, and Perrin must be together to win."

 

One is instructions, one is prophecy.

 

But this doesn't change the fact Min's Viewing will come to pass.

 

I never said they wouldn't. Not once have I ever said that Min's viewings are ever wrong. I have always held that they are always right. However! They do not always concern single-option scenarios. That is, they are not always of the formula "X will happen." They are oftentimes of the formula "if X then Y," and more often as you said, "X then Y or Z."

 

So that's three types of viewings:

 

1. X

2. X > Y

3. X therefore Y V Z

 

It's not about predictive quality beyond the initial viewing. What I'm been talking about has purely been about the level of choice involved in prophecies because the fundamental tenet of my argument is that if all prophecies are of the format "X will happen," then there is no free will. I hold that there is free will, so not all prophecies are of the format "X will happen." And that's evidently true: not all prophecies in the Wheel of Time are of the format "X will happen." In fact, even the Prophecies of the Dragon are largely of the format "if X then Y," even though they are written poetically as "X will happen."

 

Taking one specific prophecy in the Prophecies of the Dragon which we already know came to pass. Rand's birth on Dragonmount.

 

Despite the fact that the Prophecies of the Dragon literally say, "On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man," which leaves no room for choice (it's written in the format "X will happen"), it is understood that the phrasing is merely poetry (the standard poetry of prophecy, actually). It's actually Moiraine's entire impetus for following Rand: she believes he must be guided if he is to make the Prophecies come true.

 

I know this is a bit odd to understand, but let me put it in simple proposition-conclusion format:

 

1. If all prophecies are 100% accurate, there is no free will.

2. There is free will.

Therefore

Not all prophecies are 100% accurate.

 

I just take it a step further and say that very few are 100% accurate, and those are mostly limited to relatively inconsequential things like an unimportant person dying or someone breaking an arm or someone having children.

 

If the Wheel decides that you will marry a person, then you will marry the person. If the Wheel decides that you will stay close to a person or die, then you will stay close to that person or die.

 

I also have never denied that the Wheel does have an unconscious will. In fact, I said that it does, so I agree. However, I'm saying that most of the decisions the Wheel makes can be counteracted with a strong enough will. But most of the weaves the Wheel makes are inconsequential enough, that the individual is bent to the Wheel's will. The more centered the Wheel is on a given individual, the more that person's free will can affect things. Which is why the Wheel doesn't just force a given person to do whatever it needs to be done, and instead bends the lives of those around them. The strength of many wills is much more difficult to push against.

 

But not impossible! Which is why if the Wheel wills that you stay close to a person or die, you can choose to leave that person's side and die. It is a limited choice, yes. But so long as you have more than one option to choose from, and you can freely decide (regardless of stress factors like a conscience and survival instincts), then you have free will.

 

You have your intepretation and I have mine.

 

This isn't subject to interpretation. Min's viewing is as follows: "An Aielman in a cage. A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think."

 

That is her viewing concerning Perrin, Faile, and Berelain when she first has it. There is absolutely no mention of them fighting. They are simply perched on his shoulders.

 

And it will happen exactly as stated. And that sounds alot like a divine intervention.

 

Then we are in agreement, and this whole discussion was pointless. The existence of consequences to a choice does not negate the choice's existence or the individual's freedom to choose.

 

It was the culmination of the battle for possession of the Fisher King between the Light and the Dark. Rand's only options were to serve the Light or to serve the Dark. Rand is a piece, not a player.

 

That's just putting what I said in a different form. Rand had to choose between the Light or the Shadow. He chose the Light. The fact that the choice existed, that he was capable of choosing one or the other, lies at the heart of why I say that there is free will in the Wheel of Time, and thus why the prophecies are not all 100% accurate.

 

Not everything can be internally consistent.

 

That opinion is so repugnant to me that I have no response. It's not even that I think you're wrong, I think that the opinion is utterly and disgustingly reprehensible.

 

Now this is just over-the-top. I am hesitant to continue any further since you find my perspective harmful to the series?

 

You're being rather melodramatic. And yes, I say this on the tail of calling your opinion reprehensible. It is not harmful to the series in that the quality of the work objectively is diminished by the existence of your perspective. Rather, your perspective hinders your own ability to appreciate the work. (Regardless of how much you appreciate it.)

 

Anyway! It's been fun discussing this with you. :)

[Nae'blis]

Why are the concepts of predestination and free will in conflict with one another?

 

I think there are two rules which guide the future (in the Wheel of Time):

 

Rule 1, the future is sometimes rational. If you know the future you may still pursue it or not do the things necessary to avoid it because they are illogical.

 

Rule 2, attempts to change the future only bring about the future.

 

I think these rules generally work in conjunction with each other, but in the case of negative futures, rule 2 takes over because any negative destiny must be undesirable.

 

I don't think this means the entire future is set in stone, though. When people see the 'future' or hear of 'prophecies,' it is a foretelling of what the Wheel has deemed necessary to happen for it to survive. If Min didn't have viewings that were highly symbolic and was able to understand the entire causal chain that led to a certain future, she would be able to prevent it. The Wheel knows this. She is actually a mechanism of bringing about that future (rule 2), and she is not given the knowledge which would enable her to change it.

 

This is where my theory gets a little weak. I believe there was a moment when Rand hears LTT speak in his said about the Creator making worlds and then leaving them to either whither and die or bloom, by their own choice. How is this reconcilable with the idea of predestination? The only way that I can see this is if Min's viewings have the ability to not come true, even if they always have come true. Perhaps the impetus is so strong and logical (rule 1) that people have always done it, or almost always (I would guess Rand going to the shadow was probably not part of the Wheel's plan whenever he did it). This also hints that it is possible for the Dark One to win.

 

Additionally, I always though Portal Stone worlds were different from Parallel Worlds. Portal stone worlds always seemed to be described as having less substance than the 'real world,' based on how close they were to reality. However, I thought Tel'Aran'Rhiod was an example of a 'parallel' world because it closely follows the real world, the unique feature being that it has no (or very few) natural inhabitants.

 

When Verin said that to win in one world was to win in them all, I assumed that meant to win in Rand's world is to win in the Portal Stone worlds too. And then when she said 'to lose in one is to lose in all,' I also filtered that through the idea that Rand's world is special. I took it to mean that if Rand loses, the Light loses in all the other worlds too.

 

But if the PSW are, as I believe, just an illusion, then that makes perfect sense. It would also require that Rand's world either be special amongst the Parallel Worlds (the only one to fight the Dark One), or that the Parallel worlds are actually separate Patterns and as such possibly do not consist of part of the Dark One's prison.

[Dream]

...

 

Not everything can be internally consistent.

 

That opinion is so repugnant to me that I have no response. It's not even that I think you're wrong, I think that the opinion is utterly and disgustingly reprehensible.

 

Now this is just over-the-top. I am hesitant to continue any further since you find my perspective harmful to the series?

 

You're being rather melodramatic. And yes, I say this on the tail of calling your opinion reprehensible. It is not harmful to the series in that the quality of the work objectively is diminished by the existence of your perspective. Rather, your perspective hinders your own ability to appreciate the work. (Regardless of how much you appreciate it.)

 

Anyway! It's been fun discussing this with you. :)

 

Oookay.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

And thank you for letting me know I've been enjoying the books the wrong way.