why hasn't the dark burnt the dragon out of the pattern forever

[damandred]

If balefire kills a soul forever why was the shadow trying to court rand instead of just blasting him with balefire Ishy/Moridin had plenty of chances plus darshiva (a forsaken) accuily saves rand in CoS.My point is is that moridin admits in TGS that there will be nothing left if the dark one wins no eternitys just nothingness so if the dragon is the dark ones foe through all the ages why not just do away with him once and for all and be certain of victory. What does he need rand for if everythings going to end anyway? Thoughts please...........

[Suttree]

Balefire doesn't kill a soul forever. They will still be reborn, it just makes it impossible for the DO to resurrect them.

[WhiskyJack]

Wheel will simply build a new one.

[John E. Kelley]

And both Rahvin and Ishamael did try to balefire Rand, as did Aginar.

[Jaquenetta]

On top of which, balefire might be as badass as it gets but I'm pretty sure being ta'veren still basically makes it just as hard to kill him as with anything else.

[Puny]

Balefire doesn´t kill a soul forever???

But in tGS when Rand was at Natrim´s Burrow Min was so horrified because all of the souls burned out of the Pattern... foreva.... poor them! Have I missed something?

[Sid]

She thinks 'Dead forever.' to herself. But...

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

It was also mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone can’t be reborn into the Pattern. I was very surprised by this and hadn’t heard it before, but apparently Brandon has said it in previous Q&A sessions. Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this – so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.

 

and from RJ himself

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting

 

 

Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

So Min doesn't really know. She might think she knows, but it's likely that nobody knows how balefire affects soul rebirth for sure except Rand and the Forsaken. Or possibly Moiraine from her answers in Finnland... it's been theorized that Rand will be balefired so the DO cannot have his soul, but the Dragon soul will still be around for rebirth in some fashion.

[damandred]

Okay maybe you can be reborn after being balefired but that still doesn't explain why the DO wanted rand if he wins and everything ends why does he want the dragon??????????

[Leyrann]

Well, there are theories that the war between Light and Shadow (or Creator and Dark One) can only end if the Dragon destroys the world, or something like that.

[Mr Ares]

Okay maybe you can be reborn after being balefired but that still doesn't explain why the DO wanted rand if he wins and everything ends why does he want the dragon??????????

So He can win. It's not as simple as kill Dragon=instant win. You can kill the Dragon and still lose. You can subvert the Dragon and still lose. You can leave the Dragon alive, not turn him to your side, and win. The Sha'rah game from PoD is a metaphor - Rand is the Fisher. It's possible to win by killing everything, by controlling the Fisher, or by letting your opponent control the Fisher but forcing them to make moves that benefit you. Rand going crazy and baelfiring everything? A path to victory. Rand becomes a Darkfriend? A path to victory. Rand dead? A path to victory. But none of them is a guarantee, and killing him isn't necessarily the best way. Plus, of course, if he's alive you get to gloat more.

[coolpool]

If balefire kills a soul forever why was the shadow trying to court rand instead of just blasting him with balefire Ishy/Moridin had plenty of chances plus darshiva (a forsaken) accuily saves rand in CoS.My point is is that moridin admits in TGS that there will be nothing left if the dark one wins no eternitys just nothingness so if the dragon is the dark ones foe through all the ages why not just do away with him once and for all and be certain of victory. What does he need rand for if everythings going to end anyway? Thoughts please...........

 

well as people said a balefired soul can be reborn

 

My theory is that the world will only end (the wheel will only be broken) if and when the dragon reborn is turned to the shadow (cos i don't think he has ever been turned to the shadow see).. otherwise... it will never happen and the wheel will always survive.. and thats why i think they wanted to keep rand alive.. to turn him.. like when he almost turned accidently at VoG.. he nearly destroyed the pattern, the very goal that the dark one has been attempting... do u get what i mean like..?

[OptimusPrime]

Because the Dark One wants him as Nae'blis. Dragon=unstoppable, but convertable high performance with a cool paintjob. If the Dark One can get the Dragon on side (not like a regular Chosen, but REALLY loyal like Moridin) then theres only one thing left that could stop him.

[damandred]

I think the prophecies are clear if the dragon is not at shayul gul for the last battle the shadow wins that has been clear from the start. Rand even tells the borderland kings and queens in the ToM that if they killed him all was lost all this nonsense about even him dying and the shadow still losing is just that nonsense if the dragon doesn't face the Dark one in the last battle the shadow wins I mean come on WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE SERIES HAS BEEN ABOUT????

[Suttree]

I think the prophecies are clear if the dragon is not at shayul gul for the last battle the shadow wins that has been clear from the start. Rand even tells the borderland kings and queens in the ToM that if they killed him all was lost all this nonsense about even him dying and the shadow still losing is just that nonsense if the dragon doesn't face the Dark one in the last battle the shadow wins I mean come on WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE SERIES HAS BEEN ABOUT????

 

Of course our characters think that, but you are falling prey to their limited perspective. Don't forget that time is a wheel and this battle has been fought countless times. There have been numerous "last battles" and their is nothing unique about this age.

 

Scifi.com Chat 1 November 1998

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off—kick over the table and run for the window.

 

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Unless the DO achieves the ultimate victory of breaking free the light continues on to the next turning of the wheel.

[damandred]

The first "I win again lews therin" is only possabilties relavent to rands incarnation as the dragon and is not anything to do with past lives. I know your quotes are from RJ himself and far be for me to Question the great man but in ToM moridin. seems to think that this age will be the one the DO will break free and ending everything. killing rand would make that easier going back to my first point.

[Mr Ares]

Of course Moridin thinks that he can win this time. Why bother fighting if he had no chance? Killing Rand would not make breaking Shai'tan free any easier - going back to my first point.

[damandred]

Well if rand can die and the light still win the whole series would seem alittle pointless. Going back to my second point.

[rand4747]

If he dies, I think it will be more a tie. The dark one cant truly win without the dragon to free him.

 

I think neither side could win without the Dragon.

[damandred]

The dragon or CoTL?

[Suttree]

The dragon or CoTL?

 

The Dragon is LTT(the name was made up in the AoL), that is why Rand is the Dragon Reborn. The "Dragon Soul" is the CoL.

[Thor]

The dark needs the dragon alive to win permanently, balefiring the dragon doesn't help.

[damandred]

I agree but some seem to think they can be two differant beings.

[Suttree]

Luckers summed it up quite well in a diff post...

 

Indeed, the Dragon was a political title granted Lews Therin by the people of the Age of Legends for his role as leader in the War of the Shadow. The people of the Age of Legends did not know that Lews Therin's soul in particular was spun out when the need to fight the Shadow existed--Graendal proves this, both in her consideration of the singular importance of Rand's life, a rebirth predicted for a specific reason, and her thoughts about how Demandred may well have been hailed as the Dragon himself, had things gone differently.

 

This too is why Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and not simply the Dragon, and why Lews Therin was the Dragon, and not the Dragon Reborn--the title is not the title given the Champion of the Light, but the title given Lews Therin, and then as a result, Rand.

 

This is why the fandom coined the phrase Champion of the Light to begin with, and likely why RJ picked it up.

 

Two people, same soul. The "CoL' is another phrase for the "Dragon Soul" which is pun out as the creators champion to fight the DO at need.

[Mr Ares]

Well if rand can die and the light still win the whole series would seem alittle pointless. Going back to my second point.

I don't what about that makes the series pointless. There is far more to this series than just Rand.

[damandred]

Like what? I know other people play a part but the last battle rand v the DO is what everything is leading up to is not?