Logain and Sadin

[Ciete]

Why does Logain refuse to believe that Rand has cleansed Sadin? He must have spoken w/Cadsuane, the other Aes Sedai (who cannot lie), and the Asha'man present when the cleansing took place.

 

A few times in KoD (Once speaking to Rand, once w/the Mistress of the Ships)he refers to the "Creator showed us mercy" in regards to Sadin.

 

Is he being stubborn or does he not care to know the real reason (Ignornace is bliss??) Any thoughts?

[chuckievi]

my take on this is that Rand is destined to go insane due to the taint. So here you have this guy (who you think is going nuts) telling you something that you think is impossible, you're not going to believe him either.

[Ciete]

I can see that chuckievi, however don't you think w/all of those resources at his disposal, he would have asked?

 

It almost seems to me that RJ is showing us the natural animosity between two "alpha males". I dont have my books right now (@ work, dont tell the boss LOL), but didnt Min have a viewing of a laughing Logain standing over Rand's body? I wonder if she shared that w/Rand?

[chuckievi]

Good question, but the general consensus on that is its not really Rand's body hes standing over. Lots of conjecture, but the general running theory is its another male channeler using the mask of mirrors to appear to be Rand. I guess we'll find out!

[RobertAlexWillis]

People are not always rational. I just think Logain doesn't like Rand very much and so he doesn't want to admit that he owes him.

 

A cynic could say he's preparing a deniability position for a post Tarmon Gai'don power grab. Spreading the seeds of doubt that the Dragon Reborn is really the hero of the story, so to speak.

[Bob T Dwarf]

One of the biggest recurring themes in these books is that nobody asks questions. Everybody just assumes things. So, it's no surprise that Logain doesn't ask for independent confirmation. He's convinced he already knows what's possible and what isn't, so obviously Rand must be delusional...or lying.

[algspkr]

I can see that chuckievi, however don't you think w/all of those resources at his disposal, he would have asked?

 

It almost seems to me that RJ is showing us the natural animosity between two "alpha males". I dont have my books right now (@ work, dont tell the boss LOL), but didnt Min have a viewing of a laughing Logain standing over Rand's body? I wonder if she shared that w/Rand?

It was an Egywene dream. She saw Logain kill Rand and step over his body onto a black stone, but when she touched Rand's face it turned to dust, which suggests he will kill Taim when he is posing as Rand.

[Guest Fire Lord]

I agree, Logain doesn't seem to like Rand very much, he accepts him because he has too, and I don't think it feels good to his male ego that Rand is stronger than him (that comment he made in KoD when Lewis Therin was holding the Power, there could have been other reasons as to why other than wanting to show superior strength in the Power).

Still, even if Logain would not ask Rand or the Aes Sedai, you would think he would have a talk with those other Asha'man, and I think that the cleansing is a subject that would come up easily. But then again, maybe he would not believe them? I guess, as someone said before me, everyone female or male just assumes that they know it all. This could be the downfall to many.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Never mind the fact that he aught to be able to feel the difference in saidin himself. I mean, at the Cleansing, Narishma and Flinn's first reactions were "It's Clean!" How can Logain fail to notice the difference....

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, he notices the difference.

 

He just doesn't seem to believe that Rand is the agent of the change.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, Logain definitely knows its clean. He's just telling everyone that it must have been the Creator, deciding for some reason to help out.

 

 

"I am Asha'man, but there is no taint any longer. Saidin is clean. The Cretor decided to show us mercy, it seems."

 

-Logain to Amylia Sedai, Knife of Dreams, chapter 22 To Make and Anchor Weep, p. 472-473

[Lews Therin Telamon]

what i want to know is why logain has never shown any signs of the taint affecting him. he aint no darkfriend (that would make him and taim too much alike) and hes been channelling longer than rand has

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, he hadn't been channeling for a very long period before he was captured and stilled, and then, after he was Healed, he was kept shielded until close to the time that the taint was cleansed.

 

So, in total, he probably hadn't channeled longer than Rand, while the taint was still there.

[Duncun42]

Besides which the madness comes at different times for all men. Taim had to put a few to "sleep" at the farm when they had only been channeling a little while.

 

Another possibility to consider is that men may be able to hold off the madness by strength of will. Logain is obviously strong willed, ergo can hold off the madness longer. Rand has too many pressures and so his will is sapped.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "Actually, he hadn't been channeling for a very long period before he was captured and stilled, and then, after he was Healed, he was kept shielded until close to the time that the taint was cleansed.

 

So, in total, he probably hadn't channeled longer than Rand, while the taint was still there."

 

How do you work out that he was shielded until the cleansing? Nynaeve healed him from being stilled and then he escaped (or Siuan let him go, or whatever)

but he wasnt shielded for that long at all. he escaped and went to the black tower.

[RobertAlexWillis]

How do you work out that he was shielded until the cleansing?

 

He was kept shielded until CLOSE to the cleansing. Keep in mind, the actual amount of time that passes in the last six books is less than a year combined. He was kept shielded between the time that he was Healed and the time he escaped. That is a relatively short period. Most of his protection came from being stilled for a considerable period. But there is only a short period (about 3-4 months) between the time that Logain escapes and the time saidin is cleansed.

[mightisright]

I believe that Logain gave the creator credit for Rand's deed for two reasons. He sees the cleansing as mostly divine will/miracle and by giving the creator credit he can avoid giving Rand his due.

 

Hypothetical thought process of Logain- After all, the pattern is ultimately the creators design and he mercifully decided to end the taint through Rand at that point in time. Rand was merely his instrument and can be conviently overlooked when credit is given.

[Luckers]

Mmm, it sort of makes sense for Logain to not want to attribute it to Rand... it would mean owing him, and Logains pride wouldn't like that very much.

[Narg]

he was genteled too (u guyes were say stilled you sould be ashamed of yourselves with such a noob mistake) so mabe that canceled out the madness from the tain. you now if it took away the power it may have taken away the taint that came with the power.

[TurboZ]

i thought that taint stayed with you regardless of being gentled?

[Iceman]

i thought that taint stayed with you regardless of being gentled?

 

The taint is only felt when a male takes hold of Saidin. The he feels the power and the taint coursing through him.

Being Shielded or Gentled would keep him from embracing Saidin (and the taint) completely.

[Narg]

genteled equals taint gone. but the EFFECTS iof the taint remain

[Luckers]

Yeah, Narg is right. The Taint is not a state, it simply destabalizes people. Once you stop exposing yourself to it, it stops destabalizing you, but the effect its already had remains.

[demeroe]

I'm not so sure that Logain doesn't believe Rand cleansed the taint.

As far as I recall the quote about the creator having mercy was spoken just the once and to the Ath'an Miere, while he was there as Rand's Ambassador.

It was quite a tense situation and I think he just didn't want to go in to too much detail.

He could also be of the view that everything good that happens, whether through Rand or otherwise, is part of the creator's will.

Do we have any other quotes or POVs from Logain on this?

[RobertAlexWillis]

As far as I'm aware, we don't have any POV's from Logain at all.

 

It seems pretty obvious that Logain and Rand have 8th grade recess syndrome, by which I mean that they just plain don't like each other, but they can't fight because of others around them. (I don't mean fight with the Power, I actually think their relations would benefit greatly from a shouting match followed by some wrestling in the mud.) That said, Logain probably does realize intellectually that Rand cleansed the taint, but just doesn't WANT to give him credit. Immature? Sure. But it's not like all of Jordan's characters behave rationally. In that sense, its very true to life.

 

By the way, that's all just my opinion.