Rand at Maradon

[OptimusPrime]

I have begun toying with the thought that pre-VoG Rand may have had a block. We now that most wilders have blocks (Nynaeve, Theodrin, Tarna, Fedwin Morr). We are given the impression that Taim is a wilder but we really do not know one way or the other so I'll leave the arguments for that in their own threads. Rand considers himself to be a normal person. Since the beginning Rand has been in denial and actually fulfills prophecy in an attempt to prove that he is not the Dragon. But in reality he is not just the Dragon Reborn he is also the CoL. He does not want to be the Dragon Reborn so he limits his strength to the top of the normal range. It is quit possible that LTT had the same block as he did not know that he was the CoL.

 

3. He is The strongest Ta'veren, The CoL and The Dragon Soul - If he needs it the pattern just turns up the dial on his access to the one power.

 

Rand always seems to be able to channel what he needs to accomplish his task - when he can channel. Yes sometimes he has an angreal or sa'angreal to give him a boost. Not once that I can recall did he start channeling and after a few moments stop and look at everybody and say "Sorry can't do it, I just don't have enough juice to get it done."

 

Thats because he is as strong as a man can get. If it can be done unaided, he can do it, and he is strong enough to use any angreal or sa'angreal ever made. I dont think the Creator or the Wheel can increase someones channeling strength beyond the normal rules. If anything Id say the difference between Rand pre- and post VoG is that one was a 23 year old with as much potential as is possible, and the other is a 400+ year old version of the same man at the peak of thatpotential. Which means the peak of all potential.

[Suttree]

Thats because he is as strong as a man can get. If it can be done unaided, he can do it, and he is strong enough to use any angreal or sa'angreal ever made.

 

Not sure I follow, some channelers can't use certain items of the power because they aren't strong enough?

[WhiskyJack]

Thats because he is as strong as a man can get. If it can be done unaided, he can do it, and he is strong enough to use any angreal or sa'angreal ever made.

 

Not sure I follow, some channelers can't use certain items of the power because they aren't strong enough?

 

 

Angreal or Sa'angreal only boost your raw power. So yes, every angreal or Sa'angreal has lower limit. Same thing applies to many ter'angreal. CK for example cannot be used by everyone. And even amongst those who can, some can use it for longer period than others. What Nynaeve did in tWH probably would have killed lesser Aes Sedai (in strength).

[Kahsm]

Yes, BUT, remember 100 Asha-man couldn't hold back the trollics before rand showed up. Maybe it was an AoL thing naef had never saw so many flows woven together. But I don't think the average AoL channeler could of done the same even then LTT was unique. That said Lanfear didn't seem too concerned that she was surrounded by an army of aiel when she attacked avi and Egwene in FoH. She wasn't average too though.

 

It is all theoretical but comparing modern channelers who have less than 1.5 years (in many case far less) of training with those who lived during of AoL (many for centuries) would be disingenuous. In AoL, knowledge in one power was at its peak and here, without Rand, they wouldn't even know how to travel. But as I said in the beginning, it is all theoretical. If LTT was that remarkable then Light would have had won. Instead they were on the brink of annihilation.

 

Yeah, in my original post I try to make the case for how TERRIBLE current-age channelers are compared to the forsaken. TO the point where I almost understand why the forsaken look so bad. It's because we underestimate how superior they see themselves. How much do you consider insects as you go through your daily lives? You just don't. And it kind of comes through when Nynaeve meets Mohg in the Panarch's palace and she's complaining about how much work it will be to set the things Nynaeve has messed up back into motion. It's like if you're sitting on the john and you see a spider crawl across the floor. Well now you need to do something.

 

And that is a weakness for the forsaken, because they never see the simple things coming to bite them, and they never perceive the danger as bad as it is for them, and it makes them look really, really dumb sometimes.

 

I was shocked on my my reread when I got to the point in TDR when Elayne says most women didn't know how to tie a weave. I mean by book 13 tying weaves seems elementary. And while Ashaman are written cool, there's no reason to think they're any better off than the Aes Sedai. Likely worse, since the most senior Ashaman have been at it less than two years...

 

As far as the meeting with Tuon I think that was his will losing out to the pattern because Egwene was not the Amyrlin Seat yet. Had the Tower Aes Sedai done something about Elaida then the pattern would have forced Tuon to accept him. But Elaida needed to be removed. We have been told time and again that being ta'veren does not mean things happen the way you want. It means the pattern is shaped around you for what is needed. The pattern absolutely bent around him in that encounter, just not the way he wanted.

 

I found this last paragraph to be interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't know that I agree yet, haven't fully thought it over, but it's definitely worth considering.

 

Well Brandon said that it was Tuon's willpower, so I think that debunks that:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: After Rand has channeled the True Power, he has a dark cloud around him. When he meets with Tuon after this, she manages to resist his ta’veren pull. Is this because the True Power has reduced his ta’veren mojo?

A: The reason she manages to resist is that she has a lot of willpower. Rand is just as ta’veren as ever.

And here's another similar one, no idea if it's an exact quote, the database doesn't say. But I like "sense of self" better than "willpower". Willpower sounds too much like a classic RPG computer game.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

Rand did not use Compulsion, or any other weaves, on Tuon at their meeting. Tuon's refusal was mainly due to her innate sense of self. At this point, she firmly believes that she is the most important person in the world.

 

Thats because he is as strong as a man can get. If it can be done unaided, he can do it, and he is strong enough to use any angreal or sa'angreal ever made.

 

Not sure I follow, some channelers can't use certain items of the power because they aren't strong enough?

 

Angreal or Sa'angreal only boost your raw power. So yes, every angreal or Sa'angreal has lower limit. Same thing applies to many ter'angreal. CK for example cannot be used by everyone. And even amongst those who can, some can use it for longer period than others. What Nynaeve did in tWH probably would have killed lesser Aes Sedai (in strength).

 

Verin states straight out in tGH that if she tried to use a portal stone it would kill her. So there's a ter'angreal example. Obviously she could lie, but I see no reason why she would have, she wanted to get to Falme too.

[OptimusPrime]

Thats because he is as strong as a man can get. If it can be done unaided, he can do it, and he is strong enough to use any angreal or sa'angreal ever made.

 

Not sure I follow, some channelers can't use certain items of the power because they aren't strong enough?

 

 

Angreal or Sa'angreal only boost your raw power. So yes, every angreal or Sa'angreal has lower limit. Same thing applies to many ter'angreal. CK for example cannot be used by everyone. And even amongst those who can, some can use it for longer period than others. What Nynaeve did in tWH probably would have killed lesser Aes Sedai (in strength).

 

Exactly. I cant remember who, but someone in their PoV referenced that Rand had found someone strong enough to use the female CK, thats what I was basing it on. I think it was one of the Forsaken.

 

So in terms of natural strength, Rand meets any requirement that can be met. Thats why we dont see him holding his hands up and saying he cant, its only when hes tired himself out that he might say that.

[Entreri]

ACoS prophecy clearly states the DR is one with land. I see we have confirmation from Brandon that it applies to Dragon as well.

 

The point is that Rand is definitely more than what he was in AoL, a far superior product to LTT and not your average mortal.

 

 

 

"Number 2 is a correlation relationship, not a causal one. There's no proof that the channeling causes the Light. Was Rand embraced when he weeded the dark friends out in Tear, or does he have some other method of control over the "Light"? It's not known. They could be two separate things."

 

You are misunderstanding.

[Elan Tedronai]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

[WhiskyJack]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

 

 

He may, he may not. We don't have any definitive answers. Of all things we know about LTT, proof positively, Rand has not exceeded even one, yet. So I don't think we will ever know unless Rand actually breaks a shield of 13!

[Entreri]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

 

Removing the taint from saidin.

 

This would be one of those impossible things. Even Aginor must have thought it impossible, because he put no time into considering this.

 

Rand has killed off many Forsaken, even Ishamael. These are the elite 13. While not impossible, more than what LTT has accomplished in AoL.

 

Rand has wielded enough saidin to destroy the WORLD IN ONE BLOW >>>>>>>>>> LTT or anyone else ever did.

 

Rand will likely have to face off directly against at least 2 super beings (Fain and Shadar Haran), which LTT never did.

 

Rand will seal away Shai'tan for good, something LTT could not accomplish.

 

Egwene thinks he could have broken the shield held by 13. We may find out in book 14 if that is possible (Rand's PoV). Breaking through a shield held by 13 is very minor compared to what he has accomplished so far and has yet to do in AMoL.

 

etc.

 

 

Rand is LTT 2.0, certainly far superior. Being merely LTT should be woefully inadequate to what he faces in this Age.

[Kahsm]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

 

Removing the taint from saidin.

 

This would be one of those impossible things. Even Aginor must have thought it impossible, because he put no time into considering this.

 

Rand has killed off many Forsaken, even Ishamael. These are the elite 13. While not impossible, more than what LTT has accomplished in AoL.

 

Rand has wielded enough saidin to destroy the WORLD IN ONE BLOW >>>>>>>>>> LTT or anyone else ever did.

 

Rand will likely have to face off directly against at least 2 super beings (Fain and Shadar Haran), which LTT never did.

 

Rand will seal away Shai'tan for good, something LTT could not accomplish.

 

Egwene thinks he could have broken the shield held by 13. We may find out in book 14 if that is possible (Rand's PoV). Breaking through a shield held by 13 is very minor compared to what he has accomplished so far and has yet to do in AMoL.

 

etc.

 

 

Rand is LTT 2.0, certainly far superior. Being merely LTT should be woefully inadequate to what he faces in this Age.

 

Rand used the CK to remove the taint, how do you know LTT couldn't have? The snake people told him how when he went into the twisted doorway in tear. So it's not like you can say Rand has some "taint removing" talent or something. And why would Aginor want the taint cleared? I think he quite likes not having other men rival him. He only wanted the tEotW so he, alone, could have saidin the DO did not wire-tap.

 

The forsaken had armies and cronies that were nearly the same caliber as themselves in the AoL. So LTT couldn't just stride up to them and balefire them. And is your argument that LTT was weaker than the forsaken but rand is better so he must be better than LTT? That's ridiculous. WHy would Sammael be jealous of LTT so much if LTT was such a loser?

 

Really? The world in one blow? Which world did he test that out on so that we knew it was true? How many worlds has he killed so he knew what it would take to blow up a world? And was this with the CK again? Really, ANYTHING Rand does with the CK is inadmissible, LTT never used it.

 

And now you're proving LTT is better than Rand because Rand will IN THE FUTURE _likely_ defeat two entities that DID NOT EXIST in LTT's time. Awesome.

 

And another future prediction. I've stated in other threads, that it's likely LTT succeed because of his social situation. Rand's got support, and friends, and Tam as a father. All that stuff counts. Either way, LTT and Rand both agree channeling power isn't going to defeat the DO, so this has nothing to do with channeling anyway.

 

The circumstances of this age are different from the previous age. And while Rand may be "better" in some areas, like his moral and social upbringing and support systems, that doesn't mean his channeling power/skill is any better than his previous incarnation.

[Elan Tedronai]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

 

Removing the taint from saidin.

 

This would be one of those impossible things. Even Aginor must have thought it impossible, because he put no time into considering this.

 

Rand has killed off many Forsaken, even Ishamael. These are the elite 13. While not impossible, more than what LTT has accomplished in AoL.

 

Rand has wielded enough saidin to destroy the WORLD IN ONE BLOW >>>>>>>>>> LTT or anyone else ever did.

 

Rand will likely have to face off directly against at least 2 super beings (Fain and Shadar Haran), which LTT never did.

 

Rand will seal away Shai'tan for good, something LTT could not accomplish.

 

Egwene thinks he could have broken the shield held by 13. We may find out in book 14 if that is possible (Rand's PoV). Breaking through a shield held by 13 is very minor compared to what he has accomplished so far and has yet to do in AMoL.

 

etc.

 

 

Rand is LTT 2.0, certainly far superior. Being merely LTT should be woefully inadequate to what he faces in this Age.

 

aah where do i start?

 

1)removing the taint is not a supernatural act. 2 powerful channellers linked to each other weilding the most power sangreal ever created with a bit of advice from herid fel is not an impossible act. You think LTT couldnt do what rand did if the roles were switched?

 

 

2)as for the forsaken, well in the first three books the forsaken were killed by plot armoury. Nothing more. A sherpherder with no knowledge of the power or channeling would be unable to stand toe to toe with the chosen.

 

The only time the fights became realistic was during the rahvin and sammael fights and even then rand got assistance from third parties. Oh by the way, LTT defeated ishy at paran disen. without callandor :)

 

 

3) Give LTT the kal and he would have weilded enough power to destroy the world too. When he overdosed on the power he created dragonmount.

 

4) Irrelevant to the discussion. fain and moridin are not the key to sealing the dark one's prison

 

 

5) LTT didnt seal the bore the right way last time because he made a wrong assumption. That's why in his current reincarnation as rand he specifcally said i cannot seal the bore the way i did the last time. LTT is rand and rand is LTT. They are the same souls with the same abilities albeit different personalities.

 

 

6) Egwene's assumption is not the issue here. LTT considered breaking through a shield as impossible. When rand or LTT 2.0 as you like to call him does this then yeah.....

 

 

Until then rand=LTT=rand in strength and ability as far as i am concerned

[Entreri]

far superior to LTT?

 

Far better than the greatest man of his age. Well colour me skeptical. He has shown me nothing that would surpass what LTT would consider impossible. Perhaps when rand breaks through a circle of 13, channels enough of the power to rival callandor or fights all of the forsaken at once then may be

 

Removing the taint from saidin.

 

This would be one of those impossible things. Even Aginor must have thought it impossible, because he put no time into considering this.

 

Rand has killed off many Forsaken, even Ishamael. These are the elite 13. While not impossible, more than what LTT has accomplished in AoL.

 

Rand has wielded enough saidin to destroy the WORLD IN ONE BLOW >>>>>>>>>> LTT or anyone else ever did.

 

Rand will likely have to face off directly against at least 2 super beings (Fain and Shadar Haran), which LTT never did.

 

Rand will seal away Shai'tan for good, something LTT could not accomplish.

 

Egwene thinks he could have broken the shield held by 13. We may find out in book 14 if that is possible (Rand's PoV). Breaking through a shield held by 13 is very minor compared to what he has accomplished so far and has yet to do in AMoL.

 

etc.

 

 

Rand is LTT 2.0, certainly far superior. Being merely LTT should be woefully inadequate to what he faces in this Age.

 

aah where do i start?

 

1)removing the taint is not a supernatural act. 2 powerful channellers linked to each other weilding the most power sangreal ever created with a bit of advice from herid fel is not an impossible act. You think LTT couldnt do what rand did if the roles were switched?

 

 

2)as for the forsaken, well in the first three books the forsaken were killed by plot armoury. Nothing more. A sherpherder with no knowledge of the power or channeling would be unable to stand toe to toe with the chosen.

 

The only time the fights became realistic was during the rahvin and sammael fights and even then rand got assistance from third parties. Oh by the way, LTT defeated ishy at paran disen. without callandor :)

 

 

3) Give LTT the kal and he would have weilded enough power to destroy the world too. When he overdosed on the power he created dragonmount.

 

4) Irrelevant to the discussion. fain and moridin are not the key to sealing the dark one's prison

 

 

5) LTT didnt seal the bore the right way last time because he made a wrong assumption. That's why in his current reincarnation as rand he specifcally said i cannot seal the bore the way i did the last time. LTT is rand and rand is LTT. They are the same souls with the same abilities albeit different personalities.

 

 

6) Egwene's assumption is not the issue here. LTT considered breaking through a shield as impossible. When rand or LTT 2.0 as you like to call him does this then yeah.....

 

 

Until then rand=LTT=rand in strength and ability as far as i am concerned

 

1/ Think on what Grandael said about LTT and how differently Rand acted and nearly killed her. They are very different personalities and you can't presume that LTT would ever think of it, when even Aginor was clueless.

 

It is not impossible until somebody does it.

 

2/ Excuses. See the results. And Ishy now wields the greater TP.

 

3/ This was misinterpretation on my part of what you said.

 

4/ Fain and SH (I suppose even Moridin with the TP) are beings very likely Rand will eventually have to overcome. Beings greater than what LTT has faced in AoL (Ishy TP coming at the end, but there was no battle against Ishy TP in AoL). Fain may be unique being, first time seen in the Wheel. The Wheel has thus upgraded the Dragon Reborn to being greater than he was in AoL.

 

5/ They don't have the same exact abilities as pointed out (e.g. LTT lacked the protection of the "Light", thus went mad).

 

6/ Maybe we will see this in book 14 or flash back to his PoV when confronting Egwene, or Brandon could answer.

[MasterAblar]

 

5) LTT didnt seal the bore the right way last time because he made a wrong assumption. That's why in his current reincarnation as rand he specifcally said i cannot seal the bore the way i did the last time. LTT is rand and rand is LTT. They are the same souls with the same abilities albeit different personalities.

 

What do you by "he made the wrong assumption"?

 

 

2/ Excuses. See the results. And Ishy now wields the greater TP.

 

Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue.

 

You say they are excuses, but, while one should not forget the end results (Rand did defeat a number of Forsaken whether he had assistance or not), you can't just ignore the details or you could get the wrong idea. If Rand was not taveren (which has nothing to do with his ability to channel), and didn't have LTT's memories, abilities, and talents slipping through there's no way he would have gotten as far as he has.

[WhiskyJack]

Things I know:

1) Rand got lucky with taint thing. Aginor was sealed in prison when Mashadar came to be. He has no experience with Mashadar and LTT predated Mashadar. Rand got the idea by personal experience and not by critical application of his mind. It would be ridiculous to ask why LTT didn't clean the taint when he was basically went mad or that he died very soon after that. Mashadar was the key, an evil strong enough to destroy taint. Did Rand invent Mashadar? Hmm...

 

2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff.

 

3)Yes, yes, only if LTT could time travel and weild a Sa'angreal he had no access to. All he did was to attack the very heart of DO's earthly power and somehow push it away! By the way, CK CANNOT destroy the world in one blow, not even if both CK are being used through link. I am sure Rand could have managed to damage the skin of the world and destroyed life (probably not even that) but if that's what end of "world" means, sure.

 

4) LTT faced DO itself. Oh wait. May be it was sleeping during the attack on SG;)

 

5) It is always fascinated to learn from others mistakes but real question is this, if roles were reversed, who thinks Rand would have not done exact same thing LTT did? Life is about daring and doing things no one has done before! LTT did that, albeit with failure of different kind.

 

6) I think, in 14(15?) th book, we will find out that Rand will command DO to just die and he will! Yes, ladies and gents, AMoL contains only one page. Chaper is called "trip to SG". The end.

 

In reality, the idea of super duper LTT or Superman is irrelevant to the story. Even if Rand could wield CK times 1000, it still won't mean anything. DO will crush him like a bug if they ever came face to face. This is not a war of power. No wonder Rand said we are not a weapon. Order and strength of character. That's the key. Impose order on chaos that is DO. Show strength of..something. So what would be the point of giving Rand twice the power of LTT or even 10 times if it is totally illogical? LTT's failure wasn't predicated on his strength in OP but his methodology or simply lack of knowledge.

 

 

This was fun.

[WhiskyJack]

 

5) LTT didnt seal the bore the right way last time because he made a wrong assumption. That's why in his current reincarnation as rand he specifcally said i cannot seal the bore the way i did the last time. LTT is rand and rand is LTT. They are the same souls with the same abilities albeit different personalities.

 

What do you by "he made the wrong assumption"?

 

 

 

I think he is implying that LTT either ignored the possibility of counterstrike or he didn't even conceive the idea. I will go with the later. No one before LTT (in living memory) had actually challenged the might of DO itself. That was an uncharted territory. I think success was impossible in first attempt. Any Dragon would have failed there. And wheel counted on that. Moiraine says that it was better that LTT sealed the bore and gave the "remnant" of the world second chance than to let Shadow win the war. Now world has better grasp of what DO can or cannot do. A better chance of success even if the cost was too high.

[Entreri]

"2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff."

 

Nobody is denying that LTT was #1 in AoL. But since Rand has achieved his englightenment (+ all of LTT's knowledge) and other abilities LTT did not have (we know at least the "Light" protection of his mind), that he has become greater. We will have to see AMOL to get more specifics.

 

 

 

"Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue." In this Age yes, but not in AoL until likely the very end.

[MasterAblar]

"2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff."

 

Nobody is denying that LTT was #1 in AoL. But since Rand has achieved his englightenment (+ all of LTT's knowledge) and other abilities LTT did not have (we know at least the "Light" protection of his mind), that he has become greater. We will have to see AMOL to get more specifics.

 

 

 

"Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue." In this Age yes, but not in AoL until likely the very end.

 

Why would he not use the TP, which he favors, in his fight against the best and most powerfull channeller in the world?

[Entreri]

"2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff."

 

Nobody is denying that LTT was #1 in AoL. But since Rand has achieved his englightenment (+ all of LTT's knowledge) and other abilities LTT did not have (we know at least the "Light" protection of his mind), that he has become greater. We will have to see AMOL to get more specifics.

 

 

 

"Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue." In this Age yes, but not in AoL until likely the very end.

 

Why would he not use the TP, which he favors, in his fight against the best and most powerfull channeller in the world?

 

One needs the DO's permission to the TP. He was never the Nae'blis in AoL.

 

To LTT in EoTW: "I was never skilled at Healing, and I follow a DIFFERENT POWER NOW".

"You humbled me in the Hall of the Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I AM THE GREATER, NOW".

 

This strongly indicates that when Ishamael faced LTT in prior occassions he was wielding the OP and not the TP.

 

With the TP for instance, Ishamael could sneak attack without LTT ever finding out. With the TP one can do things which are impossible with the OP (see Grandael).

 

TP > OP.

[Kahsm]

"2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff."

 

Nobody is denying that LTT was #1 in AoL. But since Rand has achieved his englightenment (+ all of LTT's knowledge) and other abilities LTT did not have (we know at least the "Light" protection of his mind), that he indeed greater than he was as LTT.

 

 

 

"Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue." In this Age yes, but not in AoL until likely the very end.

 

This thread isn't about Rand being greater than LTT in a general sense, it's about channeling capabilities.

 

If they Chosen couldn't use the TP, why are there scenes where they talk about how Ishy is the only one crazy enough to use it?

 

It had to be saidin—among the living, only the Chosen knew how to tap the True Power—the Power that came from the Dark One—and few were fool enough to except in direst need

 

She knew that some men who

could channel survived in this time aside from al'Thor—this fellow was much of a size with al'Thor.—but she

had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen

knew- In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold

down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to

resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.

 

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black

speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the

True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched

the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his ...

anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly

than poison.

[Elan Tedronai]

@master ablar,

 

LTT's fatal mistake was to assume that humans could do a similar job as the creator of imprisoning the DO using the power. That's the crux of the issue.

 

When the creator imprisoned the DO behind the pattern, it was for a reason. The pattern itself is thing that is only strong and stable enough to hold shaitan. When lanfear drilled through the bore and allowed shaitan to extend his pinky figure though it, he inadvertently stopped the pattern from healing itself and closing the hole naturally. That's why the bore was open for a 100 years. LTT thought by puting a patch on the hole it would solve the issue. However we all know now that the patch is crumbling under the force of the DO. Not to mention that laying saidin on bore resulted in contact with DO and subsequent taint backlash.

 

That's why rand said he cannot seal the bore like last time. Meaning he cannot simply put a patch on the bore and call it a day. He needs to get the prison to be fixed before lanfear drilled a bore through. And for that to happen, the DO needs to be pushed back through the bore long enough for the patten to self heal and close the bore lanfear created.

 

 

@enteri

 

you are making a lot presumptions. what graendal thinks of LTT or what LTT would have done is not the issue. The issue is ability. Your argument is that rand is way more powerful that his previous incarnation. Your saying rand weilding the kal is proof. i say it is not. The kal is a sangreal. An object that amplies someone's power. It does not prove one person is stronger than the other.

 

And also why do make LTT sound as if some bum on the street. The man wore the ring of tamyrlin. Was number one in an age where Powerful male and female aes sedai were dime a dozen. The forsaken were jealous and hated him. In battle he was feared and respected. He thrashed every single one of the chosen who stood face to face with him. He didnt need callandor or nynaeve or moridin to bail him out.

 

 

fain and moridin are not keys to sealing the DO prison. I find the subject of the 'light' interesting. But what triggered the light? His ephiphany at dragonmount. That he finally knew who he was and what he was supposed to do. That he was LTT all along. If that's the case then LTT did not need any light because he wasn't going through schizo behaviour like rand due to the taint. The light does not prove anything. It doesn't prove that rand is stronger than his alter ego from the last age. Like i sad from the beginning, if rand can do things LTT considered impossible then i would have no problems accepting your assertion

[MasterAblar]

"2)I don't know what LTT had achieved in War of power but I do know for certain that all forsaken held him in awe. He whipped Ishmael twice, gave Sammael a scar and rest just stayed away from him. And yes, he led a 10 year global war against shadow. To top this, he attacked SG, a place where you actually can "touch" DO in a sense. That place is awash with DO's essence. I guess it takes lot more power and courage to put a seal there than to just defeat a mere forsaken. But hey, I am just saying stuff."

 

Nobody is denying that LTT was #1 in AoL. But since Rand has achieved his englightenment (+ all of LTT's knowledge) and other abilities LTT did not have (we know at least the "Light" protection of his mind), that he has become greater. We will have to see AMOL to get more specifics.

 

 

 

"Ishamael has always wielded the TP. It's why he was pretty much insane. He used the TP in tEoTW's prologue." In this Age yes, but not in AoL until likely the very end.

 

Why would he not use the TP, which he favors, in his fight against the best and most powerfull channeller in the world?

 

One needs the DO's permission to the TP. He was never the Nae'blis in AoL.

 

To LTT in EoTW: "I was never skilled at Healing, and I follow a DIFFERENT POWER NOW".

"You humbled me in the Hall of the Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I AM THE GREATER, NOW".

 

This strongly indicates that when Ishamael faced LTT in prior occassions he was wielding the OP and not the TP.

 

With the TP for instance, Ishamael could sneak attack without LTT ever finding out. With the TP one can do things which are impossible with the OP (see Grandael).

 

TP > OP.

 

No less than 29 Forsaken/Chosen were given permission to wield the TP by the DO. There's no way Ishamael was not amongst those, because while he was not Nae'blis then, he was already the DO's favorite.

 

As for him believing himself the greater, well perhaps LTT's condition has something to do with that. Besides, being LTT's greatest rival amongst the Shadow, of course he would like to believe himself the greater.

[Entreri]

"No less than 29 Forsaken/Chosen were given permission to wield the TP by the DO. There's no way Ishamael was not amongst those, because while Nae'blis then, he was already the DO's favorite."

 

If they wielded, they must have done for very short duration, given that quote by Demandred above.

 

TP Ishamael nearly took out Rand+Callandor in TAR, unlikely even LTT could survive against Ishamael using the TP.

 

Given the quotes from EoTW, Ishamael said he is the greater NOW.

[Kahsm]

"No less than 29 Forsaken/Chosen were given permission to wield the TP by the DO. There's no way Ishamael was not amongst those, because while Nae'blis then, he was already the DO's favorite."

 

If they wielded, they must have done for very short duration, given that quote by Demandred above.

 

TP Ishamael nearly took out Rand+Callandor in TAR, unlikely even LTT could survive against Ishamael using the TP.

 

Given the quotes from EoTW, Ishamael said he is the greater NOW.

 

They CHOSE not to use it, is very different than couldn't. If LTT came after them with his OP and they felt they were losing, I've no doubt they would have broke out the TP. As Dem explains, they would and did use it when need was dire.

[Suttree]

Given the quotes from EoTW, Ishamael said he is the greater NOW.

 

and he is given the circumstances.. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the TP. That is a pretty huge assumption you are using in order to make another guess.

 

1/ Think on what Grandael said about LTT and how differently Rand acted and nearly killed her. They are very different personalities and you can't presume that LTT would ever think of it, when even Aginor was clueless.

 

It's pretty safe to say if he had the items of power at Rand's disposal and advice from the finns that he then was able to bounce of Herid Fel, he could have come up with it. Without the finns Rand would have had no idea where to start. One of the chosen at the cleansing even comments how it was a brilliant plan but then LTT had always been a brilliant planer.

[damandred]

Does Rand get more than LTT s memories in VoG? I seem to remember reading that he could remember all his past lives