Female Dominance

[FiachraÓRaghallaigh]

A completely academic discussion...

 

Something that I found rather interesting about the WoT is that it is set in a rather matriarchal society. Of course this varies from country to country, within the novel, but by and large it's clear that women are more powerful. For example male channellers are hounded, the Aes Sedai are a very powerful political force (and the Children of Light - while feared - are considered over-zealous troublemakers), Andor is run exclusively by queens and one only has to look to Emmond's Field to see how women can boss men around.

 

However with the cleansing of the [is]saidin[/i], do you think that we'll see "masculinism" in a similar fashion to "feminism" in Europe and America during the 20th century (after the defeat of the Dark One of course)? Also could we see a complete 180 degree shift, given that men have greater strength in the one power than women have?

[AshaShan]

A completely academic discussion...

 

Something that I found rather interesting about the WoT is that it is set in a rather matriarchal society. Of course this varies from country to country, within the novel, but by and large it's clear that women are more powerful. For example male channellers are hounded, the Aes Sedai are a very powerful political force (and the Children of Light - while feared - are considered over-zealous troublemakers), Andor is run exclusively by queens and one only has to look to Emmond's Field to see how women can boss men around.

 

However with the cleansing of the [is]saidin[/i], do you think that we'll see "masculinism" in a similar fashion to "feminism" in Europe and America during the 20th century (after the defeat of the Dark One of course)? Also could we see a complete 180 degree shift, given that men have greater strength in the one power than women have?

 

I could wish so. I think it will depend on how the Asha'man establish themselves vis a vis the Aes Sedai. If they allow themselves to habitually and traditionally be bonded as Warders then the process will be set back many generations. Similarly if they continue bonding the Aes Sedai as they have then the unpleasant 180 you describe might occur. Hopefully a third option will present itself before the end of AMOL.

[Naked~Frog]

I think the different countries run differently though. The ones with kings for instance, I seem to recall somewhere that women were not dominant... can't recall which at the moment though.

[Himiko]

I think the different countries run differently though. The ones with kings for instance, I seem to recall somewhere that women were not dominant... can't recall which at the moment though.

 

Amadicia, perhaps? I'm pretty sure this is the case there. On the other hand, you have places like Far Madding, which are extremely matriarchal.

 

I don't think its quite as simple as "Women are dominant, men are not", at least not to the extent that the reverse has been true in the real world. It varies from place to place, and the attitudes DO seem very closely linked to the One Power. Men who can channel are feared because they will eventually go mad- something that has only changed recently. Women who can channel are feared, but also respected, because of their power, both in the OP and political. Men broke the world, and women tried to repair it, in its simplest terms. Unsurprising, then, that the attitude that has sprung up in most countries is that women are to be respected by men, and men should listen to women. In Amadicia, where all channeling is seen as evil, being the stronghold of Children of the Light, whilst they share the fear of male channelers, their particular wrath is reserved for AS- a group of women channelers with immense world-wide political power- it is less surprising, therefore, that their attitude should be more tilted in the opposite direction- men who can channel might be a danger, but an organised and powerful group of channelers with influence in most countries shows a greater ideological threat.

 

These attitudes aside, however, we still see men as rulers, and the armies of Randland are almost exclusively male. Men can be merchants, etc. Aside from Far Madding (and Amadicia, I don't remember much about their political situation, so can't really comment), and some monarchies which are traditionally male or female (Andor, for example), there don't seem to be many legal restrictions on genders. I mean, in many cases, male and female roles are obviously separate- Mayor and Village Council are always male, Wisdom and Women's Circle are female- and women joining the army seems to be largely frowned upon, but I'd say, if we left out the channelling groups, and our two extremes (FM and Amadicia), the sexism is mostly in attitude rather than practice, and it does go both ways- women think men are idiots who can't think by themselves, men think women constantly need help and protection (NB: obviously not representative of all attitudes, merely a vague generalistion). Not to say that sexist attitudes are not bad in themselves, I believe they are. But I think that, once it becomes more widely known that the taint on Saidin is cleansed, and that the Asha'man have been cured of their existing madness, especially once both male and female channelers fight for the light in TG, we will slowly start to see a change in attitude of the populace, whereby either all channelers are considered as only AS once were, or all channelers will be treated with less awe, as they will be more common than before. I don't see anything wrong with AS and Asha'man bonding each other if its a consensual arrangement on both their parts (not a big fan of the Warder bond in general, TBH, but setting that aside for the moment), but I do think that Egwene and the other AS need to stop being horrified by the idea of AS being bonded- either both groups can bond each other, or neither. Don't know what would happen to Amadicia, though. Perhaps, having a mixed gender political group to hate, they would start to be more equal as a society, too :P

 

Note the Seanchan, for example. Those who can channel are "removed" from society- in the case of women, to become damane (and sul'dam, though the wider empire isn't aware of this). A high level of distrust for ALL channelers exists, no power is knowingly granted any of them. And we see no notable gender issues that I can think of- women and men both serve in the military, both serve as assassins and bodyguards, both can rule, or claim high titles. Tuon is surprised when Mat shows reluctance to kill a woman.

 

So yes, on balance, I think that the OP, and channelers, hold the key to changing attitudes about men/ women, which is hopefully something we'll see after TG. I think if there's any "masculism" to be seen in the world, it will be seen in places like Far Madding.

[Mr Ares]

I doubt a full 180 shift will occur, at least not any time soon. The greater strength in the Power enjoyed by men is balanced out by a few factors - the greater dexterity of women (thus making men and women equal in capability) and women being needed for linking (but men being needed to take circles beyond thirteen). The stigma against male channelers will likely take some time to fade. As for male/female power in society as a whole, women have an edge due, in part, to fear of male channelers and that it is women (AS) who have kept people safe from them. Also, the degree to which women are the ones in charge varies significantly from country to country. Thus "masculinism" would not fill the same role as feminism did in our own history - Andor's all queens policy is balanced out by, for example, Arad Doman's all kings, and Tanchico's male king/female panarch division balanced itself out. Taking the world as a whole, women can be seen to not have a huge edge on men in the power stakes. At the start of the series, roughly the same number of countries were ruled by men as women - Illian, Arad Doman, two of the Borderlands, Murandy, Cairhien, Amadicia and Ghealdan all had male rulers. Also, most of the Tairen High Lords were men. Compare that to Altara, the other two Borderlands, Andor, Far Madding, Tar Valon, Mayene in the Westlands, plus Shara and Seanchan. Tarabon has a division of power, as do the Aiel (although if you wanted to count the Wise Ones as the true power in the Waste, go ahead).

[Agitel]

Also, gender roles still exist to a large degree. I'm not saying that they need to be completely abolished, but especially in the early books the men would be the workers and the women the home managers, with the men controlling the sale of their goods. While it seems, in practice, that things work out equally between the two as presented to us, I'm not sure if it's entirely realistic. The men control the economic power in the agricultural world, and the women largely seem to only have economic influence because the men let them.

 

This could be fleshed out more, but I'm in a rush. I think Jordan did a better job of balancing later in the series.

[Durinax]

Also, gender roles still exist to a large degree. I'm not saying that they need to be completely abolished, but especially in the early books the men would be the workers and the women the home managers, with the men controlling the sale of their goods. While it seems, in practice, that things work out equally between the two as presented to us, I'm not sure if it's entirely realistic. The men control the economic power in the agricultural world, and the women largely seem to only have economic influence because the men let them.

 

This could be fleshed out more, but I'm in a rush. I think Jordan did a better job of balancing later in the series.

actually this is not that far off, even in moder ntimes.

 

my family has a large farm, and my dad makes all economic decisions in respects to the farm (what,when,how,where to plant, etc). whereas my mother does the housework, and balances the books, and runs meals out to him and me and my brother. It works very well actually.

 

I infact think that this works because the men tend to do more of the agricultural work (and in the time frame of the books it makes sense since things like cooking and cleaning would take a rediculous amount of time compared to todays standards) so the men need to have more control over the agricultual economy in order for it to work. just imagine where ever you work if a person with absolutely no idea what was happening was put in the top management position, the business would go bankrupt/start losing a lot of money really fast.

[Agitel]

Also, gender roles still exist to a large degree. I'm not saying that they need to be completely abolished, but especially in the early books the men would be the workers and the women the home managers, with the men controlling the sale of their goods. While it seems, in practice, that things work out equally between the two as presented to us, I'm not sure if it's entirely realistic. The men control the economic power in the agricultural world, and the women largely seem to only have economic influence because the men let them.

 

This could be fleshed out more, but I'm in a rush. I think Jordan did a better job of balancing later in the series.

actually this is not that far off, even in moder ntimes.

 

my family has a large farm, and my dad makes all economic decisions in respects to the farm (what,when,how,where to plant, etc). whereas my mother does the housework, and balances the books, and runs meals out to him and me and my brother. It works very well actually.

 

I infact think that this works because the men tend to do more of the agricultural work (and in the time frame of the books it makes sense since things like cooking and cleaning would take a rediculous amount of time compared to todays standards) so the men need to have more control over the agricultual economy in order for it to work. just imagine where ever you work if a person with absolutely no idea what was happening was put in the top management position, the business would go bankrupt/start losing a lot of money really fast.

 

My point was that in settings like the Two Rivers and much of agrarian Andor (at least), men are still the dominant sex. Actually, I don't know if you really disagreed with that. However, the last statement seemed a little silly. Why couldn't a woman control the economic means and the man do the housework? There's no reason she can't have the knowledge or perseverance to do it. Ultimately, in a society where it's 99% men doing this type of thing, it's a society where men are the more dominant sex in these circumstances, even if there are some exceptions in some parts of society.

[Dewairah]

[My point was that in settings like the Two Rivers and much of agrarian Andor (at least), men are still the dominant sex. Actually, I don't know if you really disagreed with that. However, the last statement seemed a little silly. Why couldn't a woman control the economic means and the man do the housework? There's no reason she can't have the knowledge or perseverance to do it. Ultimately, in a society where it's 99% men doing this type of thing, it's a society where men are the more dominant sex in these circumstances, even if there are some exceptions in some parts of society.

 

Given the fact that the women's circle seemed to make their own decisions for Emond's Field, because they percieved the men themselves could not (e.g sending nynaeve to find the boys and egwene) and regularly shamed their husbands and men in the village council into acting how they wanted ..... were the men really the "dominant sex" in the Two Rivers?

[Agitel]

[My point was that in settings like the Two Rivers and much of agrarian Andor (at least), men are still the dominant sex. Actually, I don't know if you really disagreed with that. However, the last statement seemed a little silly. Why couldn't a woman control the economic means and the man do the housework? There's no reason she can't have the knowledge or perseverance to do it. Ultimately, in a society where it's 99% men doing this type of thing, it's a society where men are the more dominant sex in these circumstances, even if there are some exceptions in some parts of society.

 

Given the fact that the women's circle seemed to make their own decisions for Emond's Field, because they percieved the men themselves could not (e.g sending nynaeve to find the boys and egwene) and regularly shamed their husbands and men in the village council into acting how they wanted ..... were the men really the "dominant sex" in the Two Rivers?

 

I'm arguing it's not entirely a believable scenario. Men control the economic means and have plenty of social power. They also control trade. Men are consistently shown to be thought to be independently capable on many levels (despite what some like Nynaeve might think) while women are required to band into groups to enforce their rights. Women are equals because the men pretty much let them be and lack any spine. I'm more criticizing the structure of parts of Jordan's world. If I have time tomorrow I'll search for more examples.

[MasterAblar]

[My point was that in settings like the Two Rivers and much of agrarian Andor (at least), men are still the dominant sex. Actually, I don't know if you really disagreed with that. However, the last statement seemed a little silly. Why couldn't a woman control the economic means and the man do the housework? There's no reason she can't have the knowledge or perseverance to do it. Ultimately, in a society where it's 99% men doing this type of thing, it's a society where men are the more dominant sex in these circumstances, even if there are some exceptions in some parts of society.

 

Given the fact that the women's circle seemed to make their own decisions for Emond's Field, because they percieved the men themselves could not (e.g sending nynaeve to find the boys and egwene) and regularly shamed their husbands and men in the village council into acting how they wanted ..... were the men really the "dominant sex" in the Two Rivers?

 

I'm arguing it's not entirely a believable scenario. Men control the economic means and have plenty of social power. They also control trade. Men are consistently shown to be thought to be independently capable on many levels (despite what some like Nynaeve might think) while women are required to band into groups to enforce their rights. Women are equals because the men pretty much let them be and lack any spine. I'm more criticizing the structure of parts of Jordan's world. If I have time tomorrow I'll search for more examples.

 

I'd say it's the result of the breaking.

[Durinax]

My point was that in settings like the Two Rivers and much of agrarian Andor (at least), men are still the dominant sex. Actually, I don't know if you really disagreed with that. However, the last statement seemed a little silly. Why couldn't a woman control the economic means and the man do the housework? There's no reason she can't have the knowledge or perseverance to do it. Ultimately, in a society where it's 99% men doing this type of thing, it's a society where men are the more dominant sex in these circumstances, even if there are some exceptions in some parts of society.

I was pointing out that this kind of arrangment is realistic.

 

in reference to the books, it is clear that women do hold more power than the men in a cultural setting. In a family setting it may be less so (due to economic decisions), but in a culture as a whole they hold the majority of the power, due to them being able to influence their husbands into deciding the 'right' (womans) way. for example look at the highest positions of power in the TR's Wisdom and Mayor, Wisdom heals and acts as a power balance to the mayor and has a support system underneath them, are able to hide what business their about (due to it being 'womens business') even when it could bring down the wrath of an enemy who would kill them for harbouring fugitives (WC in TR's episode). The mayor has a small council which advises him on what is happening in local areas, and makes fiscal decisions on where to spend town capitol based on that. The mayor fundamentally has less political power than the wisdom, most blatent is that the wisdom heals people and is known to be a healer, which will encourage others to listen to her since she does advise people on their healths.

 

as for the economic part, we have places this is obviously reversed (far madding, somewhat in ebou dar), but it depends on the economic engine, if it is trade women can easily do as well as men. If it is a physical endeavour (farming, blacksmithing, etc) women tend to have a tougher go at it because their not as physically robust (generally). That is why you end up with men being in control in economic senses in areas based on these types of economic situations, although I have to point out it would be stupid if a person didnt recognize that in the series both man and wife would have (somewhat) equal say in where the money goes (with investment into some kind of production being paramount)

[FarShainMael]

I would agree that blacksmithing is an endeavour physical enough to require strong male muscle, and so might other things be, carpentry for instance; but I'm less convinced about agriculture. Planting and digging potatoes, for example, would not overtax the strength of a moderately healthy woman. Activities such as ploughing are done by horses anyway, so all they need is someone to control them, after the blacksmith has made the ploughshares of course. My own feeling is that it would be a case of all able-bodied men, women, and children to the fields to keep everyone fed - but I'm no historian; is there someone on the forums who has info on the division of farm labour in the real world, pre-industrial revolution?

 

'Scuse me, I've got to go pick some carrots..

[randsc]

There was a pretty interesting BBC Wales series a few years ago called Tales from the Green Valley, where actual historians and archeologists tried to recreate life on a Jacobean-period hill farm. Did women work, very hard, at very physically demanding tasks? Absolutely. Did men and women labor at the SAME tasks? Not often. Men did most of the (literally) heavy lifting.

 

In my own profession, women have a very high washout rate in spite of receiving supports and preferment beyond that ever dreamed of by males. Because some things simply require a degree of physical strength, especially upper-body strength, that is far more common among men.

 

What I think is interesting about tWoT, and what I don't think Jordan gets enough credit for, is the degree to which this sort of divide simply doesn't matter in-world. These are fantasy novels; just because there is a connection between profession and economic/political power and social status in our world does not mean that such a connection need exist in a fantasy.

[FarShainMael]

Programmes like that are interesting, but they miss one very fundamental point. They are trying to get modern-day types to live medieval lifestyles - but we are all, men and women alike, soft by comparison with our forebears!

 

A woman who spends a normal working day pushing a mouse around, or even a vacuum cleaner, and takes a couple of weeks off to play at farm life, is no sort of match in strength or general toughness for a woman who's been using a spade or a scythe from sunrise to sunset day after day, year after year.

 

Another programme tried to get people living on a stone age diet to see if it was healthier.. they had to cut the study short before the subkects got severely malnourished; their modern digestions just couldn't cope!

 

But I do agree with your last paragraph.

[randsc]

But the tasks are taken directly from primary source material of the period, which is extensively cited.

 

Women really did do "women's work" and men, mens'.

[dwn]

As Durinax pointed out above, a lot comes down to a division of labour, and in a pre-industrial society maintaining a household alone is a full-time job. And while it's a snide cliche/stereotype now, "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen" does contain a bit of truth: women tend to look after the household and myriad yard work (small livestock, gardens, etc.) because it puts them where they can look after the younger children.

 

Edit:

 

Those programmes randsc mentioned are excellent and really do illustrate the points perfectly.

 

-- dwn

[FarShainMael]

I don't disagree, but I'd like to add another element: I used to live in East Africa, and the women were commonly out in the fields with the men, tending the crops. (And these were BIG fields.) Those children who could walk were either running around nearby or being looked after by the elders in the village. Babies too young to walk were carried in a cloth sling on the mother's back. But that's a different culture, and quite likely different physiologies.

[dwn]

I don't disagree, but I'd like to add another element: I used to live in East Africa, and the women were commonly out in the fields with the men, tending the crops. (And these were BIG fields.) Those children who could walk were either running around nearby or being looked after by the elders in the village. Babies too young to walk were carried in a cloth sling on the mother's back. But that's a different culture, and quite likely different physiologies.

 

That's an interesting counterpoint. I wonder what the cultural/societal differences are that lead to the different norms.

 

One thought that occurs to me--and keep in mind I claim no expertise to back this up--is the differences caused by climate. In one of those historical programmes I saw, one of the key household tasks was preserving foodstuffs (pickling, etc.) for the winter. The shorter length of the growing season would make that sort of thing far more crucial to survival in northern latitudes. Also, harsh winters pretty much mandate a more substantial sort of shelter (and thus more maintenance), more clothing to manufacture, etc.

 

-- dwn

[FarShainMael]

Re climatic differences: East Africa straddles the Equator, so is generally quite hot - but it's also quite high up, rising from the coast to around 5,500 feet at Nairobi, for example. This both moderates the climate (to around the nid-twenties C average) and reduces the atmospheric pressure. The barometer in our school physics lab registered around 630 mm Hg, as against 760 mm Hg at sea level. (You just could not make a decent cup of tea.. ) As a consequence, there was less oxygen available. The effect on physiology of the native people you can see at any sports meeting, with the notable exception of motor racing (so far)!

 

Apart from that, though, it never got cold enough for frost even at night, so there wasn't so much need for clothing; and the dark skins protected them from UV. Housing was another matter, it was useful to be able to keep out stray hyenas (they used to come and root around our dustbins at night!) and defend yourself against enemy tribes. The place was reasonably fertile all the year round, apart from the northern areas bordering Somaliland, and has plenty of wildlife, but often you have to eat it before it eats you They farm cattle and sheep, and crops such as millet and maize; but they never had a need for the preservation methods you mention.