What was Aran'gar up to?

[Kahsm]

I'm convinced she (he?) Compelled Egwene. Look at Eg's attitude to the Pattern in ToM14, when in her thoughts she berates Nynaeve for not being 'levelheaded' enough to avoid getting caught up in the Pattern as it bends around Rand's ta'veren nature!

 

Someone please explain this to me. I keep hearing it over and over and do not understand.

 

Are you saying Rand is incapable of being wrong and therefore if Nyn is caught up in his ta'veren pull she should go along with it?

 

Or are you saying Nynaeve is immune to Rand's Ta'veren pull and that should somehow be obvious?

 

Or something else?

 

"I'm happy for you, Elayne," Egwene said. "And for Rand. I'm not certain what I think of the timing. You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releasing him upon the world."

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

Elayne looked troubled.

This was a more lukewarm reception than Egwene had expected. She'd thought that the Wise Ones would resist her, while Nynaeve and Elayne would immediately see the danger.

Nynaeve has been around him too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near

him would begin to see things his way, would work—unconsciously—to

see his will done.

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or . . . well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Here's Loial's description of Ta'veren:

 

"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes

the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to

swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make

the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes.

 

And Moiraine's:

 

Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and

sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and

some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.

[yoniy0]

I think all FSM said was that Egwene appear incapable of staying impartial on this issue and acts illogically. She doesn't allow for the possibility that an unbiased intelligent individual might disagree with her.

[Kahsm]

I think all FSM said was that Egwene appear incapable of staying impartial on this issue and acts illogically. She doesn't allow for the possibility that an unbiased intelligent individual might disagree with her.

 

I see. Though she specifically says, "She thought that the Wise Ones would resist her". Which kinda ruins that idea doesn't it? She expected people she claimed, earlier in the same chapter, she highly respects to disagree with her. And I think that caused the issue with Nynaeve. She had "validation", so to speak, from the Wise Ones already. Thus she was looking for other explanations for Nynaeve's skepticism, and found a possible one in Rand's Ta'veren-ness.

[JeffWeissberg]

I don't think she considers the Wise Ones "unbiased" considering their attitude of AS in general as well as their support of Rand.

 

but are we considering here that perhaps Aran'gar Compelled Egwene to protect the seals? i'd say possible but unlikely. and that quoted exchange seems more to me about Eg's own stubborn expectation that Elayne and Nyn will blindly tow the AS line...

[FarShainMael]

I'm convinced she (he?) Compelled Egwene. Look at Eg's attitude to the Pattern in ToM14, when in her thoughts she berates Nynaeve for not being 'levelheaded' enough to avoid getting caught up in the Pattern as it bends around Rand's ta'veren nature!

 

Someone please explain this to me. I keep hearing it over and over and do not understand.

 

Are you saying Rand is incapable of being wrong and therefore if Nyn is caught up in his ta'veren pull she should go along with it?

 

Or are you saying Nynaeve is immune to Rand's Ta'veren pull and that should somehow be obvious?

 

Or something else?

 

I'm saying that the function of a ta'veren is to correct drift in the Pattern. This simply didn't occur to Egwene; she seems to think that she knows what the Pattern needs to correct itself better than it does..

 

Still looking for that balefire thing, I'm sure there's a quote from RJ somewhere. For the moment, there's this:

 

"When anything is destroyed with balefire, it

ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns

away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the

further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest I can manage will remove

only a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger.. With a sa'angreal

like Callandor, you could annihilate a city with balefire. The Pattern could be

disrupted for years to come. Who can say that the weave would even remain

centered on you, ta'veren as you are, until it settled down?”

 

Get back to you.

[Kahsm]

I'm saying that the function of a ta'veren is to correct drift in the Pattern. This simply didn't occur to Egwene; she seems to think that she knows what the Pattern needs to correct itself better than it does..

 

But that's tantamount to saying that Rand can never be wrong, which is obviously, and demonstrably, untrue. Sometimes the pattern will push a Ta'veren, yes, but sometimes the Ta'veren can walk the pattern off a cliff. I suppose Egwene never considered that it may have been an instance of the former. But why would she when it would obviously be more likely the latter (to her), given what he claimed to do?

 

Edit: this is getting dangerously off-topic, so I make a pledge to drop it if you want the last word here. *hides from Luckers*

[JeffWeissberg]

here is the BS quote regarding balefire.

One fan asked him...if the balefiring of Graendal could bring back Asmodean, if in fact Graendal was the person who killed him. Brandon essentially said no, because it happened much too long ago. At best balefire burns someone out of the Pattern 3 days to a week at the absolute most. But usually more like 5 minutes.

 

I guess it's safe to say than any Compulsion on Eg by Aran'gar could still be active, but if there was any, i still doubt it's relevant at this point.

[Sharaman]

We've had lots of Egwene PoVs. Her thoughts aren't disorganised, as you'd expect if she was acting under Compulsion. She's changed her mind about things several times, sure. But she's done so rationally and with full apparent awareness. It would take very subtle Compulsion to induce her to do that and to rationalise it as comfortably as she has done.

We don't have reason to believe that Halima was superb at the art of Compulsion.

Nor do we have any hint in Hailma's PoVs to assume she was Compelling Egwene.

[FarShainMael]

here is the BS quote regarding balefire.

One fan asked him...if the balefiring of Graendal could bring back Asmodean, if in fact Graendal was the person who killed him. Brandon essentially said no, because it happened much too long ago. At best balefire burns someone out of the Pattern 3 days to a week at the absolute most. But usually more like 5 minutes.

 

I guess it's safe to say than any Compulsion on Eg by Aran'gar could still be active, but if there was any, i still doubt it's relevant at this point.

 

You got there first.. it's from

 

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_59g3crchdk&revision=_latest

[LazyMonk]

There's really no indication of Compulsion in Egwene's behavior. mostly because her actions are to protect the seals - hardly something Aran'gar wishes.

 

What Aran'gar seems to do sums up to:

1. Trying to weaken her position by making her unwell -- That's would would've returned power to the hall and sitters.

2. Disrupt her True-Dreams -- which succeeded for the time.

3. Getting close enough to influence her directly -- IMO that wouldn't have worked. Egwene wouldn't have a none AS confidant/adviser, no matter how she likes her.

[FarShainMael]

I'm saying that the function of a ta'veren is to correct drift in the Pattern. This simply didn't occur to Egwene; she seems to think that she knows what the Pattern needs to correct itself better than it does..

 

But that's tantamount to saying that Rand can never be wrong, which is obviously, and demonstrably, untrue. Sometimes the pattern will push a Ta'veren, yes, but sometimes the Ta'veren can walk the pattern off a cliff. I suppose Egwene never considered that it may have been an instance of the former. But why would she when it would obviously be more likely the latter (to her), given what he claimed to do?

 

Edit: this is getting dangerously off-topic, so I make a pledge to drop it if you want the last word here. *hides from Luckers*

 

It's complicated enough to be worth a question to BS from someone with Twitter access!

 

For the moment, I'll settle for it being a strong indication of Compulsion, but not a guarantee.

[FarShainMael]

There's really no indication of Compulsion in Egwene's behavior.

 

What Aran'gar seems to do sums up to:

1. Trying to weaken her position by making her unwell -- That's would would've returned power to the hall and sitters.

2. Disrupt her True-Dreams -- which succeeded for the time.

3. Getting close enough to influence her directly -- IMO that wouldn't have worked. Egwene wouldn't have a none AS confidant/adviser, no matter how she likes her.

 

So why not add Compulsion to all that, and be sure of controlling Egwene? I can't help but feel it is a very strange omission; always assuming, of course, that she knows how to do it.

 

As Sharaman says, we don't have much to work on:

 

We've had lots of Egwene PoVs. Her thoughts aren't disorganised, as you'd expect if she was acting under Compulsion. She's changed her mind about things several times, sure. But she's done so rationally and with full apparent awareness. It would take very subtle Compulsion to induce her to do that and to rationalise it as comfortably as she has done.

We don't have reason to believe that Halima was superb at the art of Compulsion.

Nor do we have any hint in Hailma's PoVs to assume she was Compelling Egwene.

 

Yes it would have to be subtle, yes she'd have to be very good at it. We don't know whether she is - or whether she is not. We can suppose, though, that Shaidar Haran, who then commanded Aran'gar, would want as much control as possible over Egwene, and would choose for that errand someone who had the necessary skills. Yes the argument is a bit back-to-front.. but I keep coming up against this opportunity question.

[yoniy0]

Well, Sharaman, what you say isn't completely accurate in my view. First, let me acknowledge that we have no direct information as to Aran'gar's abilities or her using Compulstion on Egwene. Having said that, we do have Egwene's headaches, as (certainly not irrefutable) evidence. We do know that Aran'gar believes some charge well under her thumb (again, this could be taken as a hint, if Egwene is indeed that charge). Finally, Aran'gar is the type of person to use Compulsion. Someone who lived by manipulating gambles and was a known womanizer could definitely make good use of it. Other womanizer FS we've seen include Rahvin, who certainly did have that weapon in his arsenal.

 

Again, I don't claim that the evidence is conclusive, or even convincing, really. I just don't think we can say it's not there and keep a straight face.

[Sharaman]

Another way of looking at it, if Egwene was under Compulsion, halima could have easily made sure that she had as much access as she wanted, rather than being irritated that Egwene didn;t always ask her to get close.

 

She could be very good at Compulsion but we've never heard it being mentioned as a special gift.

We know she has some basic ability. In Graendal's PoV when she asks Halima to KO Ramshalam, there's no particular "respect" for Halima's Compulsion ability. The headaches could mean anything - I always assumed it was a deliberate pain weave she threw, to get Egwene to accept her massages. or a side-effect from having Dreams disrupted.

[yoniy0]

Again, there's a big difference between disagreeing or preferring the opposite argument and claiming that an argument has no merit, which was my point above.

 

For the record, I agree regarding the headaches. But no, being willing to use Compulsion isn't the same as using it mindlessly. Egwene could still oppose the sort of Compulsion Halima had to use to avoid being obvious.

[Sharaman]

I'm open to the idea that Halima may have used Compulsion. But there's no direct evidence for it and some against - another data point: Egwene also never considers gentling Logain again and we know Halima was determined to eliminate Logain or any other saidin channeler in Salidar for good reasons.

[FarShainMael]

She's too busy thinking about Mesaana.

[yoniy0]

another data point: Egwene also never considers gentling Logain again and we know Halima was determined to eliminate Logain or any other saidin channeler in Salidar for good reasons.

That's actually a very good point. It would certainly have been a priority for her. Why would she mind Egwene's own plan for him, though? Gone is gone.

[JeffWeissberg]

wouldn't the Compulsion have to be pretty heavy to convince Egwene to kill/allow Logain to be killed? Much easier to "encourage" her to do what she already maybe, kind of wanted.

 

But was Halima even in a position to Compel Eg that early on in the Salidar game? I wouldn't think that opportunity would arise until Halima was entrenched as one of Eg's "Maids"...

[Kahsm]

What do you think this compulsion would be set up to do?

 

Is it like inception? Where some seed is planted so deep that her decision still look like her own, but based on planted base instincts? Cause that would be pretty hardcore.

[JeffWeissberg]

Well the way I understood it was that heavier Compulsion was required to really steer someone away from what they would normally consider. a quick search found three references to "level of Compulsion"

 

but the level of compulsion Graendal employed surely left them good for little more than decoration

but the level of Compulsion used on those who served her personally left little room for anything beyond adoration

Once a man had known that level of Compulsion

 

On the other side, I see what Verin did to Beldeine:

 

Beldeine would have to find reasons within herself to obey...

 

I'm open to the possibility that Aran'gar gave Egwene "suggestions", but would never have used the mind-breaking weaves the way Graendal does...

 

i guess the real issue is that we'll probably never know...

[Kahsm]

Listening to tSR today, and I got to the part with Elayne and Nynaeve in Tanchico. Mogh visits them and says:

 

"I would put you off this hunt of yours, if I could. A pitty compulsion is so limited."

 

This gives me more doubts about compulsion on Eggs. It seems far too complex to make it look like there is no compulsion and keep it going so long through events that Aran'gar couldn't have anticipated. Mogh apparently felt she couldn't even do what I would think is a simple, "Stop looking for the Black Ajah."

[randsc]

Don't forget, one purpose of laying Compulsion on someone is to make it easier to do so again in the future. One someone has been subjected to Compulsion, they remain suggestible.

[Suttree]

On the other side, I see what Verin did to Beldeine:

 

Beldeine would have to find reasons within herself to obey...

 

What Verin does isn't actually compulsion. She cobbled together a similar(much more limited) weave from bits and pieces she could glean from novices and accepted.

[yoniy0]

What Verin does isn't actually compulsion. She cobbled together a similar(much more limited) weave from bits and pieces she could glean from novices and accepted.

True, but what Moghedien told Liandrin suggests a similar mechanism. Only while a part of Liandrin wished to remain alive would Moghedien's order keep her from taking her own life.

Perhaps, Moghedien's just not so skilled with Compulsion.