Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[MasterAblar]

With Perrin she had no idea on his powers or talents and it was just a case of binding him and trying to keep him safe although it was a misguided way of doing it. Intention was good. Execution was bad.

Given the above Sanderson quote, I'll give that one to you, although I remain convinced that the binding was grossly unnecessary and highly arrogant on her part. A quick explanation or even a simple attempt to shift would have served far better.

 

With nynaeve, well she needed a beatdown. Someone needed to tell her that Egwene is no longer the innkeeper's daughter and even if you grew up together and remain best of friends, when your superior gives you a command you obey it. Nynaeve had to learn it the hard way in tha TAR meeting

 

Oh, I agree entirely that she's in full right to demand proper obeisance from Nynaeve in public. What I can't agree with is how she also demands such cold formality in her personal life. Again, very few (if any) of the other young WoT characters who ascend to such precarious positions of power (Elayne, Perrin, Mat, and Rand, to name a few) demand such coldness and formality even in private. Rand's position is just as precarious, as is Elayne's, yet you don't see them demanding that Min or Birgitte bow and scrape before them. At least, not to my knowledge, anyways.

 

And what she does to Nynaeve, and allows others to do, during the test is cruel torture, plain and simple. She not only permits but encourages and aids in the intense physical and mental torture of Nynaeve far, far above and beyond what the test requires. There's no excuse for what she does there, none whatsoever. She practically sends Nynaeve to her death and then doesn't even truly apologize. It's appalling.

 

Furthermore, her cruelty nearly allows Nynaeve's enemies an excuse to fail her as she is placed in situation after situation which go far beyond what the rules of the test were constructed for. The test was cited as, what, at least dozens of times more difficult than it should've been? It's Egwene's responsibility as Amyrlin to ensure fairness and justice among Aes Sedai, and she fails utterly here.

 

Egwene's so afraid to lose even a shred of her power by appearing biased that she doesn't intervene at all, and that's simply not okay by my standards.

 

Additionally, she fails in her primary goal of retaining power and influence. She does not intervene in order to "avoid bias", correct? Yet by failing to stop a grossly unfair test, she fails on a number of levels. She fails in her duty as Amyrlin, to ensure fairness and justice between all Aes Sedai. She fails in her desire to reign in her enemies, because she gives them the impression that she won't intervene against them when she has just grounds for doing so. She fails in her desire to retain power again, by making it clear to her allies that she'll hang them out to dry if they risk endangering her authority even a little.

 

It's not only a grossly cruel move but also an entirely foolish one from a political perspective as well. She shows an exploitable weakness to her enemies (fear of appearing biased) and a lack of reliability to her allies. Overall, a very bad move no matter what angle you examine it from.

 

 

Egwene trying to bind Perrin was IMHO just a not very well written scene. If the author wanted to show that Egwene underestimated Perrin's abilities, the balefire scene was enough. While I don't particularly like Egwene, she was never portrayed as dumb. Binding Perrin in the middle of the battle to keep him safe? C'mon, Egwene would immediately move him somewhere or entirely out of TR (or she would try and fail, taking into account Perrin's mastery). But doing what she did is so stupid that I can't look at it differently than a bad writing idea (something that should have been deleted in editing) and forget about it when thinking about Egwene. Brandon had to make a statement that Egwene wanted in fact to keep Perrin safe, because the scene was so ridiculous and confusing.

 

I would disagree. Egwene, as demonstrated in ToM, has become rather arrogant to a degree. She's always been so (note in tSR when she thinks she's a match for Rand) but it's especially pronounced in ToM, and logically so; she's just achieved a great triumph as Amyrlin.

 

As such, I have no problem with the idea that she'd run into Perrin and immediately assume that he had no idea what he was doing and restrain him. The exact same thing happens with Gawyn; she assumes she's more knowledgeable when in fact she's not and ends up making a terrible decision as a result.

 

In my eyes, her attempt to tie up Perrin doesn't serve to show how much more skilled he currently is in TAR (balefire demonstrates that well) but rather, how Egwene has become more arrogant; this is corroborated by her actions re: Gawyn earlier in the book. She thinks she knows best and acts on it immediately without including Perrin at all.

 

To me, it's much like Rand when he was slipping into the Dark Side; he assumed he knew what was best to the detriment of others, and things ended badly. Egwene's going through the same phase at the moment; hopefully the events of ToM have snapped her out of it.

 

First, Brandon said she was going to move him, so you don't know how "terrible" the decision was because we never saw the whole plan. The reason you felt bad about the situation is because you are biased. And here's another example:

 

Egwene is not cold and demanding in her private life, she erged Nynaeve call her mother in private because Nynaeve needed to get used to it. And Nynaeve AGREES with that whole situation. Egwene didn't demand anything of Nyn, she talked her into it by relating the situation to one Nyn could understand.

 

And she specifically says the "mother" in private could be temporary once Nynaeve stops slipping up in public.

 

I've quoted all this before, search for it.

 

As for the testing, yes Egwene should have not involved herself at all, but once she did, and found the other Aes Sedai being hard on Nynaeve, she most certainly could do nothing relatively easier. And Nynaeve certainly wouldn't have wanted her too.

 

I don't know if it was a terrible decision but she certainly decided what was best for Perrin without bothering to consider that maybe he knew what he was doing. Now in her defence, she was in the middle of a battle and under considerable pressure, and her ultimate intentions were clearly to protect Perrin. She simply failed to consider that he may be able to defend himself just fine. So I think more than anything, it was just a badly thought out decision. It hardly makes her look like a bad person.

 

Her original error in the testing was getting involved at all like you said. However while I agree that Nyneave would not have wanted her to go easy on her compared to the other testers, as Amyrlin her role was to be fair. She clearly was not since she went harder on Nyneave than she should have. So while as friend she acted correctly (at least for Nyneave), as Amyrlin she did not. And I think she also did not want the other Aes Sedai to think that she might have been going easy on Nyneave, which would have weakened both her as Amyrlin but also perhaps Nyneave's status as Aes Sedai (although at this point I don't think Nyneave cares what other Aes Sedai think, which is why I liked her a lot in ToM).

[damandred]

The Green Ajah

Surely the biggest bunch of losers in the WoT series.

The so called battle Ajah has been a right royal let down. They have been in none of the major battles against shadowspawn except the manner house and maybe with Perrin when saving the WC's can't remember if any of the AS were Green. But even in those battles they did no more than any other AS.

They are meant to be warrior AS so you expect them to know all sorts of killer weaves handed down the Ajah from the Trolloc wars. The world is moving towards the LB which their meant to "stand ready" for, but we've seen no groups of green sisters moving towards the blight to defend the free world. The newly formed Asha'man has done more in this series to fight the shadow and they are controled by a Df/forsaken.

It seems to me they are resting on the laurals of deeds they did 2 tousand years ago in the Trolloc wars and haven't done a tap since. Even their own Captain General had to be saved by a girl who had been channelling less than 2 years.

I see at least one sister in every other Ajah in the books doing her job yet not one green rallying the forces of the light, they are to buzy shagging their warders, maybe we should call them the Whore Ajah?

[Suttree]

The Green Ajah

Surely the biggest bunch of losers in the WoT series.

The so called battle Ajah has been a right royal let down. They have been in none of the major battles against shadowspawn except the manner house and maybe with Perrin when saving the WC's can't remember if any of the AS were Green. But even in those battles they did no more than any other AS.

They are meant to be warrior AS so you expect them to know all sorts of killer weaves handed down the Ajah from the Trolloc wars. The world is moving towards the LB which their meant to "stand ready" for, but we've seen no groups of green sisters moving towards the blight to defend the free world. The newly formed Asha'man has done more in this series to fight the shadow and they are controled by a Df/forsaken.

It seems to me they are resting on the laurals of deeds they did 2 tousand years ago in the Trolloc wars and haven't done a tap since. Even their own Captain General had to be saved by a girl who had been channelling less than 2 years.

I see at least one sister in every other Ajah in the books doing her job yet not one green rallying the forces of the light, they are to buzy shagging their warders, maybe we should call them the Whore Ajah?

 

The Greens most certainly have not worked up to their potential but one thing people need to keep in mind is although the BWB calls them "fierce fighters of shadowspawn" the Green Ajah aren't rank and file soldiers. We have seen their knowledge of tactics to be exemplary such as when Joline stunned Mat and when Cadsuane planned a defense that spanked the forsaken. They are more like high ranking planners & officers than some grunt in the trenches. Egwene is currently gathering intel on the situation in the blight, a move which Ituralde calls the most important part of any war. We know Greens have serve in the Borderlands with the countries having multiple advisors(tPoD prologue) and we also know sisters such as Kiruna are known for their exploits in the blight. To say they have done nothing since the Trolloc Wars is plainly false. Even though on screen they have been a disappointment at times they have also had their successes such as Dumais Wells. Think we will see some serious redemption(if we don't I will come down on them as hard as anyone) for them come TG.

[randsc]

"Stunned"? As I recall, he thought something like, "Joline at least knew something of tactics." Where do you get "stunned?"

 

Seriously, there's giving the AS the benefit of the doubt, and then there is outright apologia. You're over the line.

[Suttree]

"Stunned"? As I recall, he thought something like, "Joline at least knew something of tactics." Where do you get "stunned?"

 

Seriously, there's giving the AS the benefit of the doubt, and then there is outright apologia. You're over the line.

 

Really Randsc... you accuse me of overstating Mat's reaction and then in the same breath act like he was all "meh...at least she's knows something of tactics" Pot meet kettle.

 

Mat was very impressed at her knowledge, given that he knows more than any General in history, it is safe to say she is quite skilled. As for me being over the line I said they have been disappointing and I will be as critical as anyone if they don't step it up. I stand by my post in it's entirety.

[randsc]

Not at all. You're throwing in adjectives not justified by the text, in order to make the AS look more admirable and competent than they are portrayed in the actual work.

 

Mat acknowledges she knows something of tactics. He is not "stunned." Nor is he "very impressed." She knows something of tactics.

 

If anything, the subtext was something like, "surprisingly, she's not completely worthless."

 

Seriously, in this thread you're approaching Kael/Elan territory.

[Suttree]

Not at all. You're throwing in adjectives not justified by the text, in order to make the AS look more admirable and competent than they are portrayed in the actual work.

 

Mat acknowledges she knows something of tactics. He is not "stunned." Nor is he "very impressed." She knows something of tactics.

 

If anything, the subtext was something like, "surprisingly, she's not completely worthless."

 

Seriously, in this thread you're approaching Kael/Elan territory.

 

A come now Randsc, don't be grouchy just because you were dead wrong about the "extra bit" in our last discussion. (joke)

 

Found the quote btw...

KoD

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

So no, the subtext is not as you suggest in your second to last sentence.

 

The world's greatest general admits that she knows what she is talking about when it comes to war. Coming from the worlds best that means something. While Mat wasn't "stunned"(it had been some time since I read KoD) the original point clearly stands in that they have a strong knowledge of military strategy and tactics.

[damandred]

Okay Joline knew something of war or maybe a lot (who cares) isn't that the least you expect of a green.

[SuperFade]

One Green Aes Sedai 'knows something of war', a statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. You can't use that one nebulous example as evidence that all Greens have a working knowledge of warfare, particularly considering the pathetic showing they put up against the Seanchan.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I like to think that Joline had very good knowledge of tactics and warfare because I don't like caricaturish characters and the way she was depicted is pretty terrible. Pretty, dumb and possesive woman - not a very nice stereotype. So I'm glad there was something positive about her intellectual capacities thrown in to balance out the spanking she got from Mat.

 

Defending Aes Sedai involvment in the war with the Shadow is a hard cause because, as in every other matter, the organization of most powerful and influential people in the world was somewhere along the flow of the story reduced to the band of childish idiots. I think that if we were to look at the consistency of storytelling, then the Aes Sedai would have to be much better than what we see in later books.

[Suttree]

One Green Aes Sedai 'knows something of war', a statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. You can't use that one nebulous example as evidence that all Greens have a working knowledge of warfare, particularly considering the pathetic showing they put up against the Seanchan.

 

Well like I said we also have Cads defense against the Forsaken, AS doing very well against many times there number at Dumais Wells, we know Kiruna is very talented as well, and Alanna led forces quite admirably in the 2Rs battle. Also the Green Ajah were Generals during the Trolloc Wars of which it is said the military arts had reached it's pinnacle. You know that has been studied and strategies have been passed down. Against that we have a poor showing during a sneak attack in a BA riddled, Fain influenced, split WT(although you could argue Egwene who identifies as Green did quite well). You tell me not to use that one example(which I didn't I gave others) and then you turn around and give one example trying to imply all Greens don't have that knowledge? By your own logic that doesn't follow, especially given the circumstances surrounding the Seanchan attack.

 

Mat, a man who knows far more than anyone in history about warfare was giving her a compliment and that in turn, is a statement on what she knows.

[XXX]

Not at all. You're throwing in adjectives not justified by the text, in order to make the AS look more admirable and competent than they are portrayed in the actual work.

 

Mat acknowledges she knows something of tactics. He is not "stunned." Nor is he "very impressed." She knows something of tactics.

 

If anything, the subtext was something like, "surprisingly, she's not completely worthless."

 

Seriously, in this thread you're approaching Kael/Elan territory.

 

A come now Randsc, don't be grouchy just because you were dead wrong about the "extra bit" in our last discussion. (joke)

 

Found the quote btw...

KoD

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

So no, the subtext is not as you suggest in your second to last sentence.

 

The world's greatest general admits that she knows what she is talking about when it comes to war. Coming from the worlds best that means something. While Mat wasn't "stunned"(it had been some time since I read KoD) the original point clearly stands in that they have a strong knowledge of military strategy and tactics.

 

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

[Suttree]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

[David Selig]

I am of two minds about this, on one hand, I see Suttree's point, on the other, after Joline was behaving like an 8 year old lacking basic common sense pretty much the whole time Mat knew her until this point, it wouldn't take much military knowledge by her to impress Mat since he wouldn't expect anything useful from her.

 

But hey, there's at least one Green who we know for sure has been taught a lo about tactics and strategy - Elayne.

 

She had not trained with weapons, but she had received all of the other lessons Gawyn had gotten from Gareth Bryne. A queen had to understand the battle plans her generals gave her rather than simply accept them blindly.

She won the only battle she commanded pretty convincingly too.

[Guest PiotrekS]

One Green Aes Sedai 'knows something of war', a statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. You can't use that one nebulous example as evidence that all Greens have a working knowledge of warfare, particularly considering the pathetic showing they put up against the Seanchan.

 

Well like I said we also have Cads defense against the Forsaken, AS doing very well against many times there number at Dumais Wells, we know Kiruna is very talented as well, and Alanna led forces quite admirably in the 2Rs battle. Also the Green Ajah were Generals during the Trolloc Wars of which it is said the military arts had reached it's pinnacle. You know that has been studied and strategies have been passed down. Against that we have a poor showing during a sneak attack in a BA riddled, Fain influenced, split WT(although you could argue Egwene who identifies as Green did quite well). You tell me not to use that one example(which I didn't I gave others) and then you turn around and give one example trying to imply all Greens don't have that knowledge? By your own logic that doesn't follow, especially given the circumstances surrounding the Seanchan attack.

 

As for the quote there is no other way to interpret it. Mat, a man who knows far more than anyone in history about warfare was giving her a compliment.

 

Suttree, you're doing a lot to show AS in the best possible light, but I can't help but notice the examples you provide shine much brighter in your post than in the books.

 

I remember Alanna (and Verin) throwing some fireballs and placing some fire weaves on catapults in the 2Rs battle, but not really "leading forces". Perrin led them, not to mention that Alanna is a possible suspect for opening the Waygate.

 

If by saying that Kiruna is very talented you meant her part in Dumai's Wells, then all we have is her striding through the battlefield "like a quenn of battles" and throwing fireballs, which could be read in different ways - e.g. that she behaved as arrogantly on the battlefield as in any other place and was simply lucky not to be killed when strolling through the battlefield as through the main street in Tar Valon Fireballs are not really cutting edge channeling battle skill, when you look at e.g. Rand at Maradon.

 

We can't say much based on Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai performance against the Shaido because we don't know the exact numbers of AS and WOs, the battle skills of the WOs, the time the battle lasted before Rand freed himself etc. Sevanna felt the Shaido were gaining the upper hand, which, considering that WOs were not really trained in battle weaves and had no occasion to use them before with any regularity, is not very impressive.

 

Cads did great indeed, but you know how unique she is. I see her not only as an exceptional person in her own right, but also as a representative of "old school" Aes Sedai, which were greater than the present ones (as Moiraine mused to herself once, the Aes Sedai were slowly weakening, talents were getting rarer etc. I think the quality of people were also diminishing). The way Aes Sedai themselves view Cadsuanane - as somebody so much above them to be called a legend - shows that her skills are not really so common among the Aes Sedai.

 

The same applies to Trolloc Wars Greens - if they were so wonderful, the bigger is the shame of contemporary sisters of the Green who are so sadly lacking in skills their predecessors probably had in abundance.

 

We know Elaida was Fain influenced, but I don't think Adelorna was. Fain wasn't as infectious as that, he still required some personal contact. I still think the Aes Sedai were treated too harshly in Seanchan attack scene just to let Egwene shine brighter. I wish RJ/BS could write it like they did in Maradon - Rand's awesomness did not make Ituralde look any less fantastic. In WT, Aes Sedai had to behave as they did to allow Egwene to save the day.

[Suttree]

I remember Alanna (and Verin) throwing some fireballs and placing some fire weaves on catapults in the 2Rs battle, but not really "leading forces". Perrin led them, not to mention that Alanna is a possible suspect for opening the Waygate.

 

After the initial battle with the catapults and weaves it is said...

 

Encylopedia WoT

Tam al'Thor, Alanna and Ihvon lead the forces at the south perimeter at the defense of Emond's Field. (TSR,Ch56)

 

If by saying that Kiruna is very talented you meant her part in Dumai's Wells, then all we have is her striding through the battlefield "like a quenn of battles" and throwing fireballs, which could be read in different ways - e.g. that she behaved as arrogantly on the battlefield as in any other place and was simply lucky not to be killed when strolling through the battlefield as through the main street in Tar Valon Fireballs are not really cutting edge channeling battle skill, when you look at e.g. Rand at Maradon.

 

On top of Dumais Wells, in which she had a very strong showing. Kiruna was raised in the borderlands, and is the sister to King Paitar of Arafel. It is said she has spent a solid amount of time in the blight fighting shadowspawn.

 

We can't say much based on Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai performance against the Shaido because we don't know the exact numbers of AS and WOs, the battle skills of the WOs, the time the battle lasted before Rand freed himself etc. Sevanna felt the Shaido were gaining the upper hand, which, considering that WOs were not really trained in battle weaves and had no occasion to use them before with any regularity, is not very impressive.

 

Both Salidar and Tower AS did very well in this battle. Their were 39 AS holding off 40,000 Shaido and and 300 WOs. Not impressive? and you accuse me of making it shine brighter, jeez what more do you want out of them.

 

Cads did great indeed, but you know how unique she is. I see her not only as an exceptional person in her own right, but also as a representative of "old school" Aes Sedai, which were greater than the present ones (as Moiraine mused to herself once, the Aes Sedai were slowly weakening, talents were getting rarer etc. I think the quality of people were also diminishing). The way Aes Sedai themselves view Cadsuanane - as somebody so much above them to be called a legend - shows that her skills are not really so common among the Aes Sedai.

 

Yes the AS have fallen far and Cads is exceptional. The fact remains she is identifies as AS down to her toe nails and is of the Green Ajah. Not saying all are like her, but she certainly counts in the plus column when showing what they are capable of.

 

 

The same applies to Trolloc Wars Greens - if they were so wonderful, the bigger is the shame of contemporary sisters of the Green who are so sadly lacking in skills their predecessors probably had in abundance.

 

Yes they were that exceptional. The BWB chronicles what they did during the Trolloc War and read up on Rashima Kerenmosa if you want to learn more. It is a shame they have fallen, but it is a fallen world in decline. That is what RJ is trying to depict. Nevertheless it's safe to say strategies of the time have been passed down and studied. We will see in TG if they will get redemption. If they don't, I will be the first to call them out.

 

We know Elaida was Fain influenced, but I don't think Adelorna was. Fain wasn't as infectious as that, he still required some personal contact. I still think the Aes Sedai were treated too harshly in Seanchan attack scene just to let Egwene shine brighter. I wish RJ/BS could write it like they did in Maradon - Rand's awesomness did not make Ituralde look any less fantastic. In WT, Aes Sedai had to behave as they did to allow Egwene to save the day.

 

Come now man, the entire Tower was Fain influenced. All of the Ajahs at the time of the attack had made armed encampments of their living areas. Sisters were being assaulted for walking in the wrong area. With Elaida at the head, the WT split and every Ajah distrusting/up in arms against the others it is no wonder the outcome when the Seanchan launched their sneak attack. On top of that the WT was split, the AS had all their attention on the army camped outside their walls, and it was an aerial attack...something that had never happened in that part of the world. When you take all those factors into account, it shows how unique the circumstances were leading a Seanchan victory, I do agree though that the authors often dumb down way too much to make Egwene look good.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I remember Alanna (and Verin) throwing some fireballs and placing some fire weaves on catapults in the 2Rs battle, but not really "leading forces". Perrin led them, not to mention that Alanna is a possible suspect for opening the Waygate.

 

After the initial battle with the catapults and weaves it is said...

 

Encylopedia WoT

Tam al'Thor, Alanna and Ihvon lead the forces at the south perimeter at the defense of Emond's Field. (TSR,Ch56)

 

I've forgotten about that, point to you.

 

If by saying that Kiruna is very talented you meant her part in Dumai's Wells, then all we have is her striding through the battlefield "like a quenn of battles" and throwing fireballs, which could be read in different ways - e.g. that she behaved as arrogantly on the battlefield as in any other place and was simply lucky not to be killed when strolling through the battlefield as through the main street in Tar Valon Fireballs are not really cutting edge channeling battle skill, when you look at e.g. Rand at Maradon.

 

On top of Dumais Wells, in which she had a very strong showing. Kiruna was raised in the borderlands, and is the sister to King Paitar of Arafel. It is said she has spent a solid amount of time in the blight fighting shadowspawn.

You don't provide the source for the last sentence, but I believe you're not making that up The experience comes from her Borderland origin and has little to do with her being Aes Sedai (it is not as though she fought in the Blight because she was AS, but rather because she was from the Borderlands). Still, she is one of the few AS with actual battle experience acquired before the events in the books, I concede that.

 

We can't say much based on Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai performance against the Shaido because we don't know the exact numbers of AS and WOs, the battle skills of the WOs, the time the battle lasted before Rand freed himself etc. Sevanna felt the Shaido were gaining the upper hand, which, considering that WOs were not really trained in battle weaves and had no occasion to use them before with any regularity, is not very impressive.

 

Both Salidar and Tower AS did very well in this battle. Their were 39 AS holding off 40,000 Shaido and and 300 WOs. Not impressive? and you accuse me of making it shine brighter, jeez what more do you want out of them.

 

WOs were not skilled in battle weaves and I'm not sure if all 300 coould channel (and if so, with what strength). There were no OP tests for the WOs, so it might be some of those WOs could barely channel at all. The numbers are pretty impressive though.

 

Cads did great indeed, but you know how unique she is. I see her not only as an exceptional person in her own right, but also as a representative of "old school" Aes Sedai, which were greater than the present ones (as Moiraine mused to herself once, the Aes Sedai were slowly weakening, talents were getting rarer etc. I think the quality of people were also diminishing). The way Aes Sedai themselves view Cadsuanane - as somebody so much above them to be called a legend - shows that her skills are not really so common among the Aes Sedai.

 

Yes the AS have fallen far and Cads is exceptional. The fact remains she is identifies as AS down to her toe nails and is of the Green Ajah. Not saying all are like her, but she certainly counts in the plus column when showing what they are capable of.

 

 

The same applies to Trolloc Wars Greens - if they were so wonderful, the bigger is the shame of contemporary sisters of the Green who are so sadly lacking in skills their predecessors probably had in abundance.

 

Yes they were that exceptional. The BWB chronicles what they did during the Trolloc War and read up on Rashima Kerenmosa if you want to learn more. It is a shame they have fallen, but it is a fallen world in decline. That is what RJ is trying to depict. Nevertheless it's safe to say strategies of the time have been passed down and studied. We will see in TG if they will get redemption. If they don't, I will be the first to call them out.

 

I agree. Of course they'll gain redemption, c'mon, they're under Egwene's leadership now.

We know Elaida was Fain influenced, but I don't think Adelorna was. Fain wasn't as infectious as that, he still required some personal contact. I still think the Aes Sedai were treated too harshly in Seanchan attack scene just to let Egwene shine brighter. I wish RJ/BS could write it like they did in Maradon - Rand's awesomness did not make Ituralde look any less fantastic. In WT, Aes Sedai had to behave as they did to allow Egwene to save the day.

 

Come now man, the entire Tower was Fain influenced. All of the Ajahs at the time of the attack had made armed encampments of their living areas. Sisters were being assaulted for walking in the wrong area. With Elaida at the head, the WT split and every Ajah distrusting/up in arms against the others it is no wonder the outcome when the Seanchan launched their sneak attack. On top of that the WT was split, the AS had all their attention on the army camped outside their walls, and it was an aerial attack...something that had never happened in that part of the world. When you take all those factors into account, it shows how unique the circumstances were leading a Seanchan victory, I do agree though that the authors often dumb down way too much to make Egwene look good.

 

The whole atmosphere was not only due to Fain's influence. Alviarin was actively working to create this mistrust. We have not seen Fain influence people by just being in proximity, so I would say his direct influene was only Elaida. The effecs of her actions spread out to the others.

 

I agree about the exceptional circumstances, but still would have liked to see at least some sisters offering meaningful resistance on their own.

[Lisa Campbell]

One Green Aes Sedai 'knows something of war', a statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. You can't use that one nebulous example as evidence that all Greens have a working knowledge of warfare, particularly considering the pathetic showing they put up against the Seanchan.

 

Well like I said we also have Cads defense against the Forsaken, AS doing very well against many times there number at Dumais Wells, we know Kiruna is very talented as well, and Alanna led forces quite admirably in the 2Rs battle. Also the Green Ajah were Generals during the Trolloc Wars of which it is said the military arts had reached it's pinnacle. You know that has been studied and strategies have been passed down. Against that we have a poor showing during a sneak attack in a BA riddled, Fain influenced, split WT(although you could argue Egwene who identifies as Green did quite well). You tell me not to use that one example(which I didn't I gave others) and then you turn around and give one example trying to imply all Greens don't have that knowledge? By your own logic that doesn't follow, especially given the circumstances surrounding the Seanchan attack.

 

As for the quote there is no other way to interpret it. Mat, a man who knows far more than anyone in history about warfare was giving her a compliment.

 

Suttree, you're doing a lot to show AS in the best possible light, but I can't help but notice the examples you provide shine much brighter in your post than in the books.

 

I remember Alanna (and Verin) throwing some fireballs and placing some fire weaves on catapults in the 2Rs battle, but not really "leading forces". Perrin led them, not to mention that Alanna is a possible suspect for opening the Waygate.

 

If by saying that Kiruna is very talented you meant her part in Dumai's Wells, then all we have is her striding through the battlefield "like a quenn of battles" and throwing fireballs, which could be read in different ways - e.g. that she behaved as arrogantly on the battlefield as in any other place and was simply lucky not to be killed when strolling through the battlefield as through the main street in Tar Valon Fireballs are not really cutting edge channeling battle skill, when you look at e.g. Rand at Maradon.

 

We can't say much based on Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai performance against the Shaido because we don't know the exact numbers of AS and WOs, the battle skills of the WOs, the time the battle lasted before Rand freed himself etc. Sevanna felt the Shaido were gaining the upper hand, which, considering that WOs were not really trained in battle weaves and had no occasion to use them before with any regularity, is not very impressive.

 

Cads did great indeed, but you know how unique she is. I see her not only as an exceptional person in her own right, but also as a representative of "old school" Aes Sedai, which were greater than the present ones (as Moiraine mused to herself once, the Aes Sedai were slowly weakening, talents were getting rarer etc. I think the quality of people were also diminishing). The way Aes Sedai themselves view Cadsuanane - as somebody so much above them to be called a legend - shows that her skills are not really so common among the Aes Sedai.

 

The same applies to Trolloc Wars Greens - if they were so wonderful, the bigger is the shame of contemporary sisters of the Green who are so sadly lacking in skills their predecessors probably had in abundance.

 

We know Elaida was Fain influenced, but I don't think Adelorna was. Fain wasn't as infectious as that, he still required some personal contact. I still think the Aes Sedai were treated too harshly in Seanchan attack scene just to let Egwene shine brighter. I wish RJ/BS could write it like they did in Maradon - Rand's awesomness did not make Ituralde look any less fantastic. In WT, Aes Sedai had to behave as they did to allow Egwene to save the day.

 

Pirotek I think that some of your arguments are unfairly disparaging but I know I'm joining late today so I will try not to reiterate on points you have conceded further on in the thread (since the post I am replying to).

 

1) By calling Kiruna arrogant because she strode through the battlefield like a queen of battles you are ignoring completely that she must feel in danger to be useful at all. I would instead call this brave because she knows that at any time she could take a spear or arrow in the back. You also forget that all Aes Sedai (except for Nynaeve who is just too stubborn, may as well try to teach a mule) are required to be completely serene even in the thick of battle, and that most of them are described as queenly anyway, especially the ones who are nobles or royals. Sister to King, hello? And trying to compare any Aes Sedai who is not at top power level to Rand's feat at Maradon is just ridiculous, he has LTT's weaves from the AOL!

 

2) Even if Wise Ones at Dumai's Wells are not formally "battle trained" they are taught everything the Aiel know and many are quite strong. They are also not hindered by the Oaths which is an added advantage over the Aes Sedai besides their superior numbers there. Some weaves such as fireballs, they are actually more efficient at than Aes Sedai because they do not use hand gestures. They also come from a 'nation' that are continually raiding and feuding between themselves so I am sure that battle would tend to come natuarally to them. Some would have been Maidens before becoming Wise Ones. Given the general sentiments about the Shaido, they probably battle more than any other clan.

 

3) Yes Cadsuane is a legend, but she also has all those Ter'angreal which over the years would have attributed to raising her status above other AS. She does have a lot of knowledge and experience so cudos to that but she also has an unfair advantage.

 

4) The thing about the Trolloc Wars Greens is that when the dust settled, they joined in the power struggles and politicking that is the main characteristic of the Tower today. Aes Sedai became secretive, were thinly spread and had lost many of the main players so some weaves were lost, and others were hoarded personally as well as by the Ajahs.

 

5) Adelorna is not among the strongest of Aes Sedai, though hardly weak either but, many Seanchan are stronger even to a par with Nynaeve and the Forsaken (female). Do you really think that Tuon would have sent just average Damane to strike at the Tower and cart off as many Aes Sedai as possible? Just to be able to shield someone holding the power you need to be stronger or have a Talent such as Berowin does. Given that the Seanchan are aware of the strength of Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve and some Seafolk (who have strong channelers of their own), Tuon would have sent her finest.

 

And Adelorna had been fighting to an extent. We can assume that the Seanchan chasing her was stronger because Adelorna was eventually shielded and collared. Again there is the restriction of the oaths to consider, if the Damane was only attempting to distract or shield her, how could Adelorna fight back when it was not life threatening? She would not have been able to shield the Damane who was most likely stronger.

 

That is one of the reasons that Egwene did shine. She had a circle and a powerful Sa'angreal and no limitation of destructive and/or killing weaves. If the Aes Sedai had listened to her they would have been prepared, albeit in an arrogant and probably inadequate fashion, and could possibly have believed that they were in danger, not phyically perhaps but definately in a 'way of life' threatening perpective.

 

 

OK so that went on a bit (sorry ) but mostly because vital facts have been glossed over in your arguments.

[Kahsm]

Egwene trying to bind Perrin was IMHO just a not very well written scene. If the author wanted to show that Egwene underestimated Perrin's abilities, the balefire scene was enough. While I don't particularly like Egwene, she was never portrayed as dumb. Binding Perrin in the middle of the battle to keep him safe? C'mon, Egwene would immediately move him somewhere or entirely out of TR (or she would try and fail, taking into account Perrin's mastery). But doing what she did is so stupid that I can't look at it differently than a bad writing idea (something that should have been deleted in editing) and forget about it when thinking about Egwene. Brandon had to make a statement that Egwene wanted in fact to keep Perrin safe, because the scene was so ridiculous and confusing.

 

Interestingly, if you listen to some of the audio books there's a clip from Jordan where he says that he doesn't read his own books, but he does listen to the audio books because he can get a different sense of what he wrote from how the books are read by someone else. And he would actually use that to help correct perceptions he never intended in future books. His specific example is foreshadowings that didn't come across obvious enough. So it's possible this is like that from Brandon...

 

OR...

 

You could be so blinded by your bias that it makes you incapable of reading her scenes properly given your erroneous, preconceived notions of her? As you note, clearly Brandon nor the editors had an issue with it. And can the WRITER be biased? I mean I suppose he could, but that's going to dictate how the whole story is written, which makes it truth.

 

I wonder which one you'll latch onto? ;)

 

Jesus Christ, Kael accusing someone of bias. Kettle, meet pot. Pot, kettle.

[...]

Seriously, in this thread you're approaching Kael/Elan territory.

 

I think Aes Sedai got lazy and shitty, not quite as shitty as you seem to suggest (without evidence), but still not great. I think Cads is an example of the way things used to be, and will hopefully be again once Egwene straightens them out. So I take Suttree's examples of things that remain from a "better time".

 

So you can keep trying to pigeon hole me, and to use my name to slander other evidence-based posts that just happen to disagree with you, but I think most people can see how hollow that is. Both Suttree and I tend to use plenty of examples and text from the books to support our ground. If you want to argue something, argue it.

 

I am of two minds about this, on one hand, I see Suttree's point, on the other, after Joline was behaving like an 8 year old lacking basic common sense pretty much the whole time Mat knew her until this point, it wouldn't take much military knowledge by her to impress Mat since he wouldn't expect anything useful from her.

 

But hey, there's at least one Green who we know for sure has been taught a lo about tactics and strategy - Elayne.

 

She had not trained with weapons, but she had received all of the other lessons Gawyn had gotten from Gareth Bryne. A queen had to understand the battle plans her generals gave her rather than simply accept them blindly.

She won the only battle she commanded pretty convincingly too.

 

Remember, most people think of Mat in a similar way. That he's a child, trouble maker, yadda yadda. So it wouldn't take much for them to be impressed by him either, that doesn't mean he's not really, really good. And that could (I'm not saying it does, but could) apply to Joline as well. So I take your point, but don't think it means anything one way or the other.

[SuperFade]

Kael, you've already proved in the prior argument about Egwene torturing Nynaeve that you will defend Aes Sedai and Egwene to the death, even if it means ignoring what is explicitly mentioned in the text in favour of your own ideas. I'd say its perfectly reasonable to use your name as an example of bling Egwene love.

[Guest PiotrekS]

One Green Aes Sedai 'knows something of war', a statement that can be interpreted any number of ways. You can't use that one nebulous example as evidence that all Greens have a working knowledge of warfare, particularly considering the pathetic showing they put up against the Seanchan.

 

Well like I said we also have Cads defense against the Forsaken, AS doing very well against many times there number at Dumais Wells, we know Kiruna is very talented as well, and Alanna led forces quite admirably in the 2Rs battle. Also the Green Ajah were Generals during the Trolloc Wars of which it is said the military arts had reached it's pinnacle. You know that has been studied and strategies have been passed down. Against that we have a poor showing during a sneak attack in a BA riddled, Fain influenced, split WT(although you could argue Egwene who identifies as Green did quite well). You tell me not to use that one example(which I didn't I gave others) and then you turn around and give one example trying to imply all Greens don't have that knowledge? By your own logic that doesn't follow, especially given the circumstances surrounding the Seanchan attack.

 

As for the quote there is no other way to interpret it. Mat, a man who knows far more than anyone in history about warfare was giving her a compliment.

 

Suttree, you're doing a lot to show AS in the best possible light, but I can't help but notice the examples you provide shine much brighter in your post than in the books.

 

I remember Alanna (and Verin) throwing some fireballs and placing some fire weaves on catapults in the 2Rs battle, but not really "leading forces". Perrin led them, not to mention that Alanna is a possible suspect for opening the Waygate.

 

If by saying that Kiruna is very talented you meant her part in Dumai's Wells, then all we have is her striding through the battlefield "like a quenn of battles" and throwing fireballs, which could be read in different ways - e.g. that she behaved as arrogantly on the battlefield as in any other place and was simply lucky not to be killed when strolling through the battlefield as through the main street in Tar Valon Fireballs are not really cutting edge channeling battle skill, when you look at e.g. Rand at Maradon.

 

We can't say much based on Dumai's Wells Aes Sedai performance against the Shaido because we don't know the exact numbers of AS and WOs, the battle skills of the WOs, the time the battle lasted before Rand freed himself etc. Sevanna felt the Shaido were gaining the upper hand, which, considering that WOs were not really trained in battle weaves and had no occasion to use them before with any regularity, is not very impressive.

 

Cads did great indeed, but you know how unique she is. I see her not only as an exceptional person in her own right, but also as a representative of "old school" Aes Sedai, which were greater than the present ones (as Moiraine mused to herself once, the Aes Sedai were slowly weakening, talents were getting rarer etc. I think the quality of people were also diminishing). The way Aes Sedai themselves view Cadsuanane - as somebody so much above them to be called a legend - shows that her skills are not really so common among the Aes Sedai.

 

The same applies to Trolloc Wars Greens - if they were so wonderful, the bigger is the shame of contemporary sisters of the Green who are so sadly lacking in skills their predecessors probably had in abundance.

 

We know Elaida was Fain influenced, but I don't think Adelorna was. Fain wasn't as infectious as that, he still required some personal contact. I still think the Aes Sedai were treated too harshly in Seanchan attack scene just to let Egwene shine brighter. I wish RJ/BS could write it like they did in Maradon - Rand's awesomness did not make Ituralde look any less fantastic. In WT, Aes Sedai had to behave as they did to allow Egwene to save the day.

 

Pirotek I think that some of your arguments are unfairly disparaging but I know I'm joining late today so I will try not to reiterate on points you have conceded further on in the thread (since the post I am replying to).

 

Since some of my arguments were imprecise, I officially apologise to every Green Aes Sedai present for being too harsh and a little unfair in my criticism I stand by the main idea though - Green Aes Sedai as a whole are not the battle-hardened soldiers they should and need to be when TG comes.

1) By calling Kiruna arrogant because she strode through the battlefield like a queen of battles you are ignoring completely that she must feel in danger to be useful at all. I would instead call this brave because she knows that at any time she could take a spear or arrow in the back. You also forget that all Aes Sedai (except for Nynaeve who is just too stubborn, may as well try to teach a mule) are required to be completely serene even in the thick of battle, and that most of them are described as queenly anyway, especially the ones who are nobles or royals. Sister to King, hello? And trying to compare any Aes Sedai who is not at top power level to Rand's feat at Maradon is just ridiculous, he has LTT's weaves from the AOL!

Ok, don't you think that the oaths which require a fighter to put herself in obvious danger in order to be able to fight at all severly damage her battle utility? Good warrior is not the one who paints a target on herself to show how brave she is, but who kills the enemy with as little risk to herself as possible. I retract my comment about arrogance, but looking at it from your perspective shows that the Aes Sedai are severly handicapped on the battlefield because of the oaths. The bravery- which is necessary in this situation and which I find impressive - is in fact wasted and should not be necessary at all.

2) Even if Wise Ones at Dumai's Wells are not formally "battle trained" they are taught everything the Aiel know and many are quite strong. They are also not hindered by the Oaths which is an added advantage over the Aes Sedai besides their superior numbers there. Some weaves such as fireballs, they are actually more efficient at than Aes Sedai because they do not use hand gestures. They also come from a 'nation' that are continually raiding and feuding between themselves so I am sure that battle would tend to come natuarally to them. Some would have been Maidens before becoming Wise Ones. Given the general sentiments about the Shaido, they probably battle more than any other clan.

The taboo on WOs taking part in war was, as far as we know, universally adhered to among the Aiel, including the Shaido. The WOs did not take part in constant raids and skirmishes between the clans and had no occasion to practice battle weaves. They should not have known them at all, because in Aiel culture it was unthinkable that the WO take part in a battle.

I concede though that apparently the WOs knew some battle weaves, which means that for some reason they still learned them in their training, even though they were expected never to use them. Odd.

3) Yes Cadsuane is a legend, but she also has all those Ter'angreal which over the years would have attributed to raising her status above other AS. She does have a lot of knowledge and experience so cudos to that but she also has an unfair advantage.

Cads earned her ter'angreals, but it does not change the fact that her leadership skills, resolve, courage etc. alone make her a special person among the AS.

4) The thing about the Trolloc Wars Greens is that when the dust settled, they joined in the power struggles and politicking that is the main characteristic of the Tower today. Aes Sedai became secretive, were thinly spread and had lost many of the main players so some weaves were lost, and others were hoarded personally as well as by the Ajahs.

 

5) Adelorna is not among the strongest of Aes Sedai, though hardly weak either but, many Seanchan are stronger even to a par with Nynaeve and the Forsaken (female). Do you really think that Tuon would have sent just average Damane to strike at the Tower and cart off as many Aes Sedai as possible? Just to be able to shield someone holding the power you need to be stronger or have a Talent such as Berowin does. Given that the Seanchan are aware of the strength of Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve and some Seafolk (who have strong channelers of their own), Tuon would have sent her finest.

 

And Adelorna had been fighting to an extent. We can assume that the Seanchan chasing her was stronger because Adelorna was eventually shielded and collared. Again there is the restriction of the oaths to consider, if the Damane was only attempting to distract or shield her, how could Adelorna fight back when it was not life threatening? She would not have been able to shield the Damane who was most likely stronger.

 

That is one of the reasons that Egwene did shine. She had a circle and a powerful Sa'angreal and no limitation of destructive and/or killing weaves. If the Aes Sedai had listened to her they would have been prepared, albeit in an arrogant and probably inadequate fashion, and could possibly have believed that they were in danger, not phyically perhaps but definately in a 'way of life' threatening perpective.

 

 

OK so that went on a bit (sorry ) but mostly because vital facts have been glossed over in your arguments.

I'm aware of all those attenuating circumstances, but still...It was the Seanchan who made a raid deep into enemy teritory, who had to channel from the air, who did not know the terrain etc. Aes Sedai were attacked in their seat of power, where they were concentrated, when they had their objects of the power, when they knew the ground and were able to use Tower formidable fortifications. They panicked when their very capital was attacked, they allowed their leader to be kidnapped and in fact made no effort to either protect the Amyrlin, or organize the defense in any way. Despite strong showing from individual sisters in the course of the story, when you have the main seat of Aes Sedai attacked and the Green Ajah sisters are running around like headless chicken, what are we supposed to think? You can't defend your own capital, how can you pretend to be a force in the imminent battle in the blight?

 

Egwene trying to bind Perrin was IMHO just a not very well written scene. If the author wanted to show that Egwene underestimated Perrin's abilities, the balefire scene was enough. While I don't particularly like Egwene, she was never portrayed as dumb. Binding Perrin in the middle of the battle to keep him safe? C'mon, Egwene would immediately move him somewhere or entirely out of TR (or she would try and fail, taking into account Perrin's mastery). But doing what she did is so stupid that I can't look at it differently than a bad writing idea (something that should have been deleted in editing) and forget about it when thinking about Egwene. Brandon had to make a statement that Egwene wanted in fact to keep Perrin safe, because the scene was so ridiculous and confusing.

 

Interestingly, if you listen to some of the audio books there's a clip from Jordan where he says that he doesn't read his own books, but he does listen to the audio books because he can get a different sense of what he wrote from how the books are read by someone else. And he would actually use that to help correct perceptions he never intended in future books. His specific example is foreshadowings that didn't come across obvious enough. So it's possible this is like that from Brandon...

 

OR...

 

You could be so blinded by your bias that it makes you incapable of reading her scenes properly given your erroneous, preconceived notions of her? As you note, clearly Brandon nor the editors had an issue with it. And can the WRITER be biased? I mean I suppose he could, but that's going to dictate how the whole story is written, which makes it truth.

 

I wonder which one you'll latch onto? ;)

 

Why, obviosuly I am "blinded" by my "bias" and incapable of reading her scenes "properly" given my "erroneous, preconceived notions". Isn't it obvious?

 

Have you seen me in any of my posts accuse you of bias or ascribe personal reasons for your interpretation of events? I don't think so. I actually believe that though we read certain scenes very differently - you enjoy Egwene scenes and think she is awesome, I think they should be rewritten from scratch - neither of us is "reading her scenes imporoperly". Because there is no such thing. Notice that I could just reverse your argument and accuse you of the opposite bias. What would we accomplish by that? Only the dialogue of the deaf.

 

To answer another part of your post, yes, I believe it is what you described. Brandon did not notice that the scene might be interpreted differently than as Egwene trying to make Perrin safe and bein surprised by his TAR prowess. That's why he tried to explain it in the interview, like "I meant it like that and did not consider other options of looking at the scene. It wasn't supposed to show Egwene in negative light".

Still, that does not make the argument invalid, becasue every reader can obviosuly interpret the text without knowing the writer's intent and it does not make their reading of it incorrect in any way.

[Lisa Campbell]

1) By calling Kiruna arrogant because she strode through the battlefield like a queen of battles you are ignoring completely that she must feel in danger to be useful at all. I would instead call this brave because she knows that at any time she could take a spear or arrow in the back. You also forget that all Aes Sedai (except for Nynaeve who is just too stubborn, may as well try to teach a mule) are required to be completely serene even in the thick of battle, and that most of them are described as queenly anyway, especially the ones who are nobles or royals. Sister to King, hello? And trying to compare any Aes Sedai who is not at top power level to Rand's feat at Maradon is just ridiculous, he has LTT's weaves from the AOL!

 

Ok, don't you think that the oaths which require a fighter to put herself in obvious danger in order to be able to fight at all severly damage her battle utility? Good warrior is not the one who paints a target on herself to show how brave she is, but who kills the enemy with as little risk to herself as possible. I retract my comment about arrogance, but looking at it from your perspective shows that the Aes Sedai are severly handicapped on the battlefield because of the oaths. The bravery- which is necessary in this situation and which I find impressive - is in fact wasted and should not be necessary at all.

 

Yes I agree that the oaths put unnecessary limitations on Aes Sedai in battle but I didn't make the world, I just try to live in it.

 

2) Even if Wise Ones at Dumai's Wells are not formally "battle trained" they are taught everything the Aiel know and many are quite strong. They are also not hindered by the Oaths which is an added advantage over the Aes Sedai besides their superior numbers there. Some weaves such as fireballs, they are actually more efficient at than Aes Sedai because they do not use hand gestures. They also come from a 'nation' that are continually raiding and feuding between themselves so I am sure that battle would tend to come natuarally to them. Some would have been Maidens before becoming Wise Ones. Given the general sentiments about the Shaido, they probably battle more than any other clan.

 

The taboo on WOs taking part in war was, as far as we know, universally adhered to among the Aiel, including the Shaido. The WOs did not take part in constant raids and skirmishes between the clans and had no occasion to practice battle weaves. They should not have known them at all, because in Aiel culture it was unthinkable that the WO take part in a battle.

I concede though that apparently the WOs knew some battle weaves, which means that for some reason they still learned them in their training, even though they were expected never to use them. Odd.

 

Yes it's odd. I know the taboo but Savanna convinced the Shaido Wise Ones to take part in battle and even her cronies to murder Demira so that the rest would join. My point was meant to be along the lines that even though they traditionally did not take part, they would have known battle strategy and be able to adapt quickly as we have also seen with other clans protecting the Car'a'carn. When Couladin threw a spear at Rand at Rhuidean, Amys was pretty quick in diverting it and throwing Couladin into some rocks.

 

3) Yes Cadsuane is a legend, but she also has all those Ter'angreal which over the years would have attributed to raising her status above other AS. She does have a lot of knowledge and experience so cudos to that but she also has an unfair advantage.

 

Cads earned her ter'angreals, but it does not change the fact that her leadership skills, resolve, courage etc. alone make her a special person among the AS.

 

I think we agree here that Cads is special, I just think her Ter'angreal give her an advantage over other Greens. Example, if Kiruna had the gadgets and Cads didn't, would things be different? Cads would still be formidable but she wouldn't have the Well, be able to sense men's channeling, be able to interfere in other's weaves undetected, armour and anything else I've missed.

 

4) The thing about the Trolloc Wars Greens is that when the dust settled, they joined in the power struggles and politicking that is the main characteristic of the Tower today. Aes Sedai became secretive, were thinly spread and had lost many of the main players so some weaves were lost, and others were hoarded personally as well as by the Ajahs.

 

5) Adelorna is not among the strongest of Aes Sedai, though hardly weak either but, many Seanchan are stronger even to a par with Nynaeve and the Forsaken (female). Do you really think that Tuon would have sent just average Damane to strike at the Tower and cart off as many Aes Sedai as possible? Just to be able to shield someone holding the power you need to be stronger or have a Talent such as Berowin does. Given that the Seanchan are aware of the strength of Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve and some Seafolk (who have strong channelers of their own), Tuon would have sent her finest.

 

And Adelorna had been fighting to an extent. We can assume that the Seanchan chasing her was stronger because Adelorna was eventually shielded and collared. Again there is the restriction of the oaths to consider, if the Damane was only attempting to distract or shield her, how could Adelorna fight back when it was not life threatening? She would not have been able to shield the Damane who was most likely stronger.

 

That is one of the reasons that Egwene did shine. She had a circle and a powerful Sa'angreal and no limitation of destructive and/or killing weaves. If the Aes Sedai had listened to her they would have been prepared, albeit in an arrogant and probably inadequate fashion, and could possibly have believed that they were in danger, not phyically perhaps but definately in a 'way of life' threatening perpective.

 

 

OK so that went on a bit (sorry ) but mostly because vital facts have been glossed over in your arguments.

 

I'm aware of all those attenuating circumstances, but still...It was the Seanchan who made a raid deep into enemy teritory, who had to channel from the air, who did not know the terrain etc.

 

All things that they are trained to do and are well practiced at.

 

Aes Sedai were attacked in their seat of power, where they were concentrated, when they had their objects of the power, when they knew the ground and were able to use Tower formidable fortifications. They panicked when their very capital was attacked, they allowed their leader to be kidnapped and in fact made no effort to either protect the Amyrlin, or organize the defense in any way. Despite strong showing from individual sisters in the course of the story, when you have the main seat of Aes Sedai attacked and the Green Ajah sisters are running around like headless chicken, what are we supposed to think?

 

I can't deny that which is why I said they should have heeded Egwene's repeated warnings.

 

You can't defend your own capital, how can you pretend to be a force in the imminent battle in the blight?

 

Being taken off guard and unprepared was unforgiveable but I think in coordinated strategies led by experienced Greens like Kiruna or Joline (although I think she's black) with sufficient man power (Warders, armies) will be more successful. We'll just have to wait and see won't we?

[RAbbott85]

Ok, so I'm coming into this really late, but I definitely have an opinion - which may or may not matter, as many people seem to have their minds made up.

 

I imagine myself in a world where for 3000 years women have been the only people able to safely wield a super-human ability. An ability to be feared so much that the women organize and impose oaths upon themselves so others won't be as scared. These women create an institution that outlives nations and provides the only force of stability in their known world. Because of their longevity/survival, the fact that they have no real outside 'threats', and their ability to channel the greatest power known in the world has made them arrogant, self-centered, naive know-it-alls.

 

I don't say that to berate them. There was no other logical choice, and I don't begrudge them for it - though I may get annoyed by it from time to time. Since the Greens are being discussed, I'll use them as an example. They are the self-proclaimed Battle Ajah. Do they have a practice yard where they practice destructive weaves? No. Do they gain experience in battle leading soldiers? No. Prior to the series, had any living even been involved in a battle? Maybe a couple. They are ready and willing to fight the Shadow, but the truth is they are only experienced in wielding the One Power - mostly in ways completely unrelated to fighting. Perhaps some will take on leadership roles in the Last Battle, but they won't be the ones devising strategy and tactics. I see them more as a weapon, like the Asha'man. In the battles that they have participated in so far is in line with that - they will attack the target but a General will be the one deciding where and when.

 

I don't fault the Aes Sedai for being what they are or acting the way they do. Their arrogance and lack of experience are result of the environment in Randland.

[MasterAblar]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

Also I'd point that the Aes Sedai had plenty of time to see the Wise Ones attacks coming because they were coming from a great distance. The Aes Sedai meanwhile were blasting away at troops directly in front of them, which means the Wise Ones had far less time to react.

[Lisa Campbell]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

Also I'd point that the Aes Sedai had plenty of time to see the Wise Ones attacks coming because they were coming from a great distance. The Aes Sedai meanwhile were blasting away at troops directly in front of them, which means the Wise Ones had far less time to react.

 

As to your first point Kiruna was well aware that Perrin had spent a significant amount of time with Moiraine and that he knew about the being in danger thing. It seemed to me that Perrin was just miffed with her striding off without a word as if she was in charge. So what else is new with Aes Sedai? They always do what they want when they want.

 

2nd point I agree with you, the Aes Sedai had a time lapse advantage when attacking the Shaido force and defending against attack by the Wise Ones, which given the ratio of AS:WO, is still pretty impressive.