Lanfear/Cyndane Strength

[Graendals favourite]

I've thought the drop can well be explained like this:

(Reference for different strengths)

 

 

Lanfear's strength : <_____________________> (21)

Cyndane's strength : <xx_________________xx> (17)

Graendal's strength : <_________________> (16)

Nynaeve's strenght : <____________> (12)

Siuan's former strength : <_________> (9)

Siuan's new strength : <xx_____xx> (5)

 

Or something like that, I'm not sure of the exact levels. I've thought the wrong gender healing creates some extra bulge on the edge of their channelling tunnel, but it is of the same size for all. Here if someone who could only channel 4 were stilled, they would not be able to channel after being healed.

[Graendals favourite]

Another explanation could be, that if the _'s correspond to the radius of the channelling tunnel, that the reduction due to wrong gender healing is a fixed volume reduction, so that for a stronger channeller less radius is lost. Then one might mark in terms of radius for Siuan <___xxx___> and for Lanfear <__________x___________>, where both have actually lost the same amount of channelling potential, but for Lanfear it is less telling because she had so much more potential to begin with.

[chemteach1977]

Thats where you're running into the problem. You can OD on the Power (like Aginor) and not burn out your ability to channel before you die, since you're still drawing the Power as you die.

 

Then why in the world are new channelers constantly warned against burning themselves OUT rather than burning themselves up. If they will spontaneously combust before destroying their ability to channel, i think we would hear about that as a bigger concern.

[Graendals favourite]

Because Aes Sedai generally seem to regard being stilled a worse fate than dying.

[chemteach1977]

But according to you folks, you can't still yourself by OD'ing on the power. Aginor apparently blowed up before he was severed. Stilling ain't a possibility if you gonna burn to death first.

[Graendals favourite]

But though being burned out is a likely result from OD, you might die before the channel burns up. Since that is connected to the soul, it will be safe once you're dead.

[Thor]

LTT ODed at Dragonmount, he didn't get severed.

 

By the way, how was he able to sense no living being in 100 something radius?

[Cybertrolloc]

LTT ODed at Dragonmount' date=' he didn't get severed.

 

By the way, how was he able to sense no living being in 100 something radius?[/quote']

The power, a terangreal or some ret-conned ability...plenty of options. But there's even less to go on with the LTT meltdown than with Aginor's.

 

But according to you folks' date=' you can't still yourself by OD'ing on the power. Aginor apparently blowed up before he was severed. Stilling ain't a possibility if you gonna burn to death first.[/quote']

Bash 'em with the LTT hijacks the source from Rand section ;) I can see the point that Aginor possibly blew up before being severed, but don't see much to make a determination either way. The why would the DO fix Aginor but not Lanfear is a good point though.

[V1zharan]

I see most of these arguments as viable...but I just have one HUGE problem with all of them...I've read through the series twice and am about halfway through The Dragon Reborn for my 3rd time, and no where have I EVER seen anything directly linking Cyndane and Lanfear other than that Cyndane is introduced after Lanfear is taken through the doorway with Moraine. Unless someone can point out an exact quote from the book saying Cyndane is Lanfear, or can point out something Robert Jordan said saying that they are the same person, I refuse to believe that not only is Cyndane Lanfear reborn when it doesn't say Lanfear is dead(Moraine knew she would live after going through the doorway...why wouldn't Lanfear live? Unless you want to try saying Moraine went head to head with Lanfear and killed her), but that she is WEAKER in the Power when she is reborn. If a blacksmith doesn't like what he made, does he screw around/damage his tools? No. So why would the Dark One weaken the strongest female Chosen/tool?

 

~V1zharan~

[Thor]

You read the book with the cleansing yet? (Can't remember name)

 

You notice she calls DR LTT?

[V1zharan]

I said I read through the whole series twice, yes I have read about the cleansing, and I will admit, I can find no way to argue against Cyndane talking about Rand as if she were Lanfear. If you want to know my full argument against this, I just posted in the "I dont think Cyndane is Lanfear" topic a minute or two ago. Have fun/good luck picking my argument apart.

 

~V1zharan~

[Luckers]

Dude, your argument has been answered countless times in this thread alone, much less the other. God it bores when people start stating how they have seen NO evidence, and REFUSE to believe until someone shows them this evidence when in point of fact people HAVE. Read the thread before you post buddy, coz otherwise we're inclined to not care about what you do and dont refuse to believe. You want to converse, or you want to state... its up to you.

 

A summary of the evidence that Lanfear is Cyndane is thus (chronologically, including both weak and strong evidence).

 

1. When we first encounter Cyndane she is striving for height. Lanfear's height is constantly remarked on, the decrease in height explains this. This for me is what first made me concider the possibility, for when it was mentioned it was highlighted in the course of the paragraph as being a significant point. RJ was establishing the character, and the key point in that establishment was a) her striving for height and b) her manner.

 

2. Her manner. She acts cold to the Forsaken, treating them as equals, or lesser people. That behaviour is not in line with a child of the Third Age. This is further backed up the next time we see her.

 

3. She speaks of the Choedan Kal, the War of Power, and the fear experienced all with a personal assosiation. She speaks as if she were there. She was also speaking fluently in the Old Tongue. There was no comments about accent, or displacement of idiom. This indicates she spoke it as her first language. This all suggest, loosely, that she was born in the Age of Legends. At this stage, of the Age of Legenders the Dark One COULD recycle, only Lanfear is an option. No other person could fit.

 

4. Specifically, in the course of that conversation she displays mannerisms singular to Lanfear. Specifically, the way she speaks of Lews Therin, her knowledge of his possession of the Choedan Kal (something only she, Rand and Asmodean knew about).

 

5. She is mindtrapped to Moridin. For this to have occured, she had to do something pretty extreme. Loose evidence, i know, but indicative of Lanfear.

 

6. She claims to be one of the Chosen. At this stage no Third Ager has been openly raised to that level. Also suggestive.

 

7. Cyndane is weaker then Lanfear. Given the severence of Lans bond and the fact that the Finns were able to contain Lanfear and Moiraine, plus the mere liklyhood of them being severed given what happened to the ter'angreal, then if Lanfear was reborn she would have had to have been healed, and by a woman, since no man knew how at that time. This would have resulted in a loss of strength, so if lanfear is around, she'd have to be weaker.

 

Now, this is all only circumstantial evidence, i agree. Before the cleansing it made me think Cyndane was Lanfear, but there was no direct proof. When the POV scene happened it set it in stone. You can rail against that all you want, but Cyndane possively thinks of memories that she had no way of ever possibly knowing unless she is Lanfear. Altogether that set it in stone.

 

Cumultively the evidence is essentially irrefutable. Cyndane is Lanfear. Now if you wish to discuss specific points or interpretations... well thats what the boards for, if you want to go on bluntly stating your beliefs with no backing, sure in your full two readings (ive read the series thirteen times, if you wanna turn this into a pissing contest) then dont waste your time, or ours.

[rd2000]

It's pretty well a given that if you argue with Lucker's. You're going to lose.

 

I remember thinking on my first read of the series that Cyndane was Lanfear. It seemed a no-brainer and very obvious. Her POV at the cleansing should be proof to ANYONE. Not only her thoughts about her being captured by the 'Finns, but when she thought to herself that Rand had found another woman to use the Choedan Kal. She was bitter because she would have faced the Creator beside Rand with the Choedan Kal. Exactly the same thing that Lanfear had said to Rand earlier.

[Cybertrolloc]

Forgot to mention something about Aginor and by extension Lanfear:

 

Restoring channeling ability may not be something DO has had to do. Say Aginor stills himself, his soul grabbed by DO and dumped into a new body (that can channel?) and he's fine. Then what about Lanfear--maybe the Finn could have done something, maybe there's something about her we don't know (strength in power-wise).

[V1zharan]

I had forgotten about her specific POV during the cleansing, I'll admit that. Also, I did read through the topic, and no, I'm not trying to look high&mighty or sumtin else like that bcause I read through the series a couple times, I'm quite aware there are those who have read it much more than me, such as yourself(Luckers). While your evidence certainly is very good, I still don't like the stilling&healed by a woman theory, and still don't think they are one and the same, although as the evidence you have pointed out clearly shows, I am likely to be proven wrong, but until I am proven wrong, I hold to my view, and no matter how much evidence you throw up, until RJ says in an interview or in the last book that Cyndane is for sure Lanfear, my view probably will not change. I don't believe they are the same person for the same reason I don't have a religion, there is no solid proof, in this case, solid proof being RJ saying straight out Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

But Luckers, gratz on making me doubt my theory.

*kneels before Luckers*

 

~V1zharan~

[Luckers]

To be fair i was feeling snarky when i wrote that. Sorry.

 

And seriously, i dont mind if you disagree... i by no ways claim that my word is law, it was just the dismissive way you addressed other peoples theories that struck me.

 

And RD, your wrong... cloglord rather resoundingly kicked my ass in the Memory of Light Forum. As soon as my ego recovers ill go in and apologise to him, but for now im wimpering in a corner still. :)

[rd2000]

ehh, no one's perfect. I consider myself rather knowledgeable on WOT. Yet I know many here are almost bottomless wells of information on WOT.

[Graendals favourite]

V1zharan, it is good to doubt even generally accepted things. Even if they're mostly correct, there may still be something wrong with them, some aspects that are off.

 

Generally, though, expecting to find 100% proof for things can be futile, since finding such is usually not the way of the world or WoT. Even in a pov, the pov character can be mistaken etc. For that reason, one must not let lack of proof hinder theories, as long as they are rationally sound and have some support from the books. No need for proof to think 'this is what likely happened there.' Then after that comes the more arduous part, because having a new theory, there is no other way to search for proof for it than reread the whole series. If one hasn't suspected something on earlier readings, then one hasn't noticed things that would support it before either. Anyway, for most things RJ probably requires us to make the right conclusion by what is likely.

 

I don't know why I'm writing this, only, I'm myself starting GH again, and it will take a long time till I'll get to the bottom of my own Rand's eyes and the DO theory. Nothing contradicting thus far, might even explain the Blight stirring when the group was there-- how would the Forsaken communicate with the trees and animals?-- but not definitive. Yes, I'm just complaining...

[Thor]

I had forgotten about her specific POV during the cleansing' date=' I'll admit that. Also, I did read through the topic, and no, I'm not trying to look high&mighty or sumtin else like that bcause I read through the series a couple times, I'm quite aware there are those who have read it much more than me, such as yourself(Luckers). While your evidence certainly is very good, I still don't like the stilling&healed by a woman theory, and still don't think they are one and the same, although as the evidence you have pointed out clearly shows, I am likely to be proven wrong, but until I am proven wrong, I hold to my view, and no matter how much evidence you throw up, until RJ says in an interview or in the last book that Cyndane is for sure Lanfear, my view probably will not change. I don't believe they are the same person for the same reason I don't have a religion, there is no solid proof, in this case, solid proof being RJ saying straight out Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

But Luckers, gratz on making me doubt my theory.

*kneels before Luckers*

 

~V1zharan~[/quote']

 

I don't buy the stilling/healing thing either.

 

But Cyndane is still Lanfear, regardless of how the change of strength came about.

[SBoydW]

I just posted on another forum about why I think Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear.

 

My theory is that the Dark One did it to her as punishment. My theorys for that is, She pissed him off By failing numerous time to turn Rand or kill him, her last result ending in her death. Also for plotting against the Dark One himself, for not only did she fail to kill/turn him, she gave him aid on a couple of occasions. The two I think of off the top of my head are, Lanfear traping Asmodean into becoming Rand's teacher, and she sent Trollocs into the stone of Tear to aid him when another Forsaken's Trollocs attacked.

 

Actually I just remembered this, I think, if I'm not mistaken she helped him when he was with the thief catcher after he left Fal dara and got trapped in the alternate world through the portal stones.

 

So her weakening was punishment for Failing the Dark One and being a traitor. And yes this would be and effective punishment for her because she was egotistical. By being weakened she may not be the most powerful female forsaken, when before she likley could have been the most powerful female CHANNLER period.

[Luckers]

Yes, that theory has been offered many times. In my opinion it makes little sense. Aside from the fact that we have no evidence that the Dark One can affect a persons strength in the power, it makes no sense for him to have done so. Oh, I'll grant that Lanfear did need to be punished and controlled, but that is the purpose of the mindtrap. Lowering her strength beyond that would be stupid... it would defeat the purpose of keeping her around by making her into a weaker tool.

 

If you can absolutely control something, you dont make it weaker, because by direct inference you are making yourself weaker. Beyond that the Dark One has shown time and again that he understands the tactical advantage represented in the strength and knowledge of his Chosen.

 

And that doesn't answer the questions of how the Finns were able to contain her, if she wasn't severed when she fell through the door. Also the question of how Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed, and how she was contained, also becomes an issue.

[SBoydW]

Well actually with a little more thought into it the Dark One would have to know about the effects of a woman healing a woman that had been severed. So maybe a woman did heal her after being severed but it could have been at the behest of the Dark One.

 

Again just a theory.

[SBoydW]

And I actually meant to add that since the Dark One decided to bring her back you would think that he would have control over how she got the ability to channel back.

[HoppyQ]

I have just started rereading the series for the first time in a year so some of my timing is a little fuzzy but, and please correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't Cyndane around and using the power BEFORE Ny figured out how to heal stilling? Wouldn't that pretty much shoot down the whole "Lanfear was stilled and then healed theory"? I do believe that C is L but I don't think her or Mo were stilled when the went through. I've also noted that several people on here have put it forward that being stilled/healed is the only other way someone has had a reduction in power. However, if you remember, Lanfear did something to Asmo that reduced his power to a trickle, at least for a while. It is possible that Moridin has done this to her and that her full power is still there. It may also be something as simple as a side effect of the mind trap. I know some will shoot down that idea simply because it is too prosaic. (sorry for the Eddings word)

[Meliane]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not because I didn't read all 5 pages of the topic (just pages 1 and 5). I've always believed that Moiraine put the bracelet angreal next to the doorframe not only because of the vision she had in the ter'angreal in Rhuidean but because she wanted to draw Lanfear up onto the wagon so that she could push her into the door. What better way to draw Lanfear up there than to specifically place a bracelet near the door that will make her stronger than Rand? When Lanfear comes out and is furious, she wants to attack, but he might be able to stop her.

 

Oh wait, here's a conveniently placed angreal! Sweet!

 

Not to mention once Moiraine claws it off, it is useful to her in her fight against Lanfear.

 

Moiraine is a genius.