Lanfear and Grolm

[Mr Ares]

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. But as I never said anything like that, and nor did anyone else...

You did. There is no other way than the Chosen mark or (maybe) strong OP to control Shadowspawn.

Except we know that is untrue. Two examples: Fades control Trollocs, but do not have the Chosen mark (only the Chosen do). In the Trolloc Wars, there were no Chosen save Ishamael. Thus there was much controlling of Shadowspawn, both by Fades and also by Dreadlords - who lack the Chosen mark.

 

Quick note, grolm and all the other seanchab exotics with the exception of s'redit came from mirror worlds, brought to the real world by aes sedai in seanchan during the first thousand years after the breaking.

 

So there prresense in the mirror worlds is not actually odd.

Do you have a source? I dont doubt that its true just want to know here you got the info. =) And has you seem learned on the subjects, are they creations of Aginor?

I'm pretty sure the information on where the exotics come from was included in the BWB. I'm not aware of any information linking Aginor to the creation of the Seanchan exotics. I know I'm not Luckers, but I'm almost as learned, and significantly more handsome.

[Hybrid]

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals?

The answer to that depends at least in part on how much of a grammar nazi one is.

 

I generally have no use for grammar nazis.

 

I think what he means is whether or not humans are considered animals.

 

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. But as I never said anything like that, and nor did anyone else...

 

You did. There is no other way than the Chosen mark or (maybe) strong OP to control Shadowspawn.

 

No, he said that if Aginor had created the grolm, the Chosen mark could supersede normal training.

[Sharaman]

I think the Seanchan ancestors imported Grolm and other exotics specifically to fight Shadowspawn. This was so successful that they completely wiped out trollocs, fades, draghkar, etc, to the point where Seanchan thought that those were legends. It's unlikely that an Aginor creation would be used so effectively for this purpose.

[rageofwar1978]

just an idea but maybe grolm have been used by the shadow also in seanchan lands. another idea, it could simply have been put in by RJ as a plot device with no true intent to explanation.

 

possibility #3 since lanfear is presumably the one that brought them through the portal stone but was not there when they awoke it stands to that she may have bound grolm in a mirror world. tied off a gateway (not sure how since that would take an immense amount of the OP) and then set them to trigger from a relative distance. or simpler even bound them say with flows of air that could be released, much easier in retrospect then tying off gateways, and had them ready to release when she was close enough to trigger them. she is powerful enough i think and many of the chosen have shown an apptitude at laying traps with the OP through out the series.

[dwn]

So each morat'grolm is a DF? Or morat'raken. Morat'to'raken. And so on. And they also have the Chosen mark? I don't think so.

 

I don't think so either. But as I never said anything like that, and nor did anyone else...

 

You did. There is no other way than the Chosen mark or (maybe) strong OP to control Shadowspawn.

 

Except we know that is untrue. Two examples: Fades control Trollocs, but do not have the Chosen mark (only the Chosen do). In the Trolloc Wars, there were no Chosen save Ishamael. Thus there was much controlling of Shadowspawn, both by Fades and also by Dreadlords - who lack the Chosen mark.

 

Fain has also been able to control shadowspawn after torturing them into obedience.

 

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals?

 

The answer to that depends at least in part on how much of a grammar nazi one is.

 

I generally have no use for grammar nazis.

 

I think what he means is whether or not humans are considered animals.

 

I think he meant that 'Compulse' is not a verb. Or a word.

 

-- dwn

[Snarf]

These mirror worlds are all connected ("included" may be better terminology) with Tel'aran'rhiod. With Lanfear being the self-proclaimed Master of the world of dreams, perhaps she actually manifested the grolm through her dreaming abilities. Perhaps these mirror worlds that are very different from the true world are held together by Tel'aran'rhiod, as if they would dissipate without the Pattern's cross-thread. Much more feasible than anything she was doing with the power. Just a thought.

[Hybrid]

Good points, Luckers. is it possible to Compulse animals?

 

The answer to that depends at least in part on how much of a grammar nazi one is.

 

I generally have no use for grammar nazis.

 

I think what he means is whether or not humans are considered animals.

 

I think he meant that 'Compulse' is not a verb. Or a word.

 

-- dwn

 

Ha, I didn't even notice that. Yeah, that's probably it.

[hazelkrs1]

I got a couple possible explanations, not sure how valid they are. One has to do with the fact that Lanfear did draw Rand and friends into that particular Mirrow World, and that she might have known something special about that one. Specifically, that it was infested with an insane amount of grolm that were somehow linked, and more and more come when they sense another of them being killed, or if they just killed some prey or something. Hence when Rand dispatches 1, six come, when he kills 6, a ton more come.

 

Another possibility is that Lanfear attracted the first and the next small group through conventional means (subtle compulsion from a distance, or increasing the smells given off by their group) and then used illusion for the last group, that they weren't real at all.

[Kahsm]

I got a couple possible explanations, not sure how valid they are. One has to do with the fact that Lanfear did draw Rand and friends into that particular Mirrow World, and that she might have known something special about that one. Specifically, that it was infested with an insane amount of grolm that were somehow linked, and more and more come when they sense another of them being killed, or if they just killed some prey or something. Hence when Rand dispatches 1, six come, when he kills 6, a ton more come.

 

Another possibility is that Lanfear attracted the first and the next small group through conventional means (subtle compulsion from a distance, or increasing the smells given off by their group) and then used illusion for the last group, that they weren't real at all.

 

Was the last pack ever actually seen? I think they were just heard, and it was noted they could hear them from every direction except the one they were heading. I think she just faked the sound. I see no reason someone can't make noises with air weaves.

 

And the others were obviously real, so she brought a bunch, and then faked the rest. Simplest explanation imo. The fact that they clearly state there was zero evidence of _any_ creature ever moving through those woods, and that it was faded, suggests that was an unpopulated (of anything but plants) mirror world. Grolm don't strike me as vegetarians...

[hazelkrs1]

The last pack was seen. Could still have been faked tho... or they couldve been in a very arid, barren area of the world, and slightly more life existed elsewhere. Point is, she can find whatever mirror world would suit her needs for that moment if she went that route.

[yoniy0]

The last pack was seen.

As I just read the entire relevant chapter again to support my position that they were fake (Luckers brought this up in another thread), I can tell you that I don't believe that's the case.

To be clear, Rand killed one grolm the first time he saw 'Selene', and then when he wouldn't take her back to Randland he had to kill five more. After that, the guys heard voices of first a score, than what seemed like hundreds of grolm coming at them from every direction but that of the Portal Stone, giving chase. However, regardless of the rough terrain they met in their way and their reduced pace, they never actually saw the grolm which were supposedly chasing them.

 

Now, if you think I'm wrong, you have to locate a quote

[PsyQuestor]

I actually did think they were illusions, especially because when Rand shot an arrow at their eyes, he hit them with great accuracy. This seemed to surprise him. Yes, he's a good shot, but shooting them in the center eye at such a distance? Anyway, this was my thought when reading it. Everything was just "too perfect" to have been coincidence. She manipulated the situation somehow to a precise detail and caused them all to be driven right where she wanted.

 

IMHO Lanfear created the illusion of the Grohlm and caused Hurin, Rand and Loial to see what she wished them to see.

[yoniy0]

Now, just to be clear, I don't think the grolm we saw were illusions, only the last batch, the one we only heard, the only one that was more than just a few.

The reason I think that is that there's a sense of gradual escalation in the means Lanfear employs to get Rand to use the Source. First suggesting that he must take her back, then confronting him with five grolm, and only when it's made clear he'll do whatever he can to continue following the trail does he encounter a pack that is clearly more than he can handle.

 

And I'm really disappointed in you, boss, for not admitting that you're helpless before my unassailable logic.

[Mandro]

Quick note, grolm and all the other seanchab exotics with the exception of s'redit came from mirror worlds, brought to the real world by aes sedai in seanchan during the first thousand years after the breaking.

 

So there prresense in the mirror worlds is not actually odd.

 

Didn't Lanfear no their names in TGH? How could she do that if they only existed in mirrors?

 

Also, Lanfear picked the mirror world, so she likely knew that there were grolm, so she could have just used to power to spread around grolm bate to set the situation. Though the situation does look orchestrated, so that's a hard sell.

[Sharaman]

The AoL had researchers who had investigated mirror worlds - Lanfear named a specific reference book that Verin and/or Loial had heard about.

The Portal stones existed even before the AoL and specific destinations were marked on them.

Not so strange that lanfear who was a leading scientist and researcher would know about Grolm and which world to find them.

[Luckers]

And I'm really disappointed in you, boss, for not admitting that you're helpless before my unassailable logic.

 

Like a babe, in truth.

[Kahsm]

Now, just to be clear, I don't think the grolm we saw were illusions, only the last batch, the one we only heard, the only one that was more than just a few.

The reason I think that is that there's a sense of gradual escalation in the means Lanfear employs to get Rand to use the Source. First suggesting that he must take her back, then confronting him with five grolm, and only when it's made clear he'll do whatever he can to continue following the trail does he encounter a pack that is clearly more than he can handle.

 

And I'm really disappointed in you, boss, for not admitting that you're helpless before my unassailable logic.

 

Yeah that's the impression I got too, having just listened to the audio version a few weeks ago. They never did see the last pack. So I also demand a quote if someone claims otherwise!

 

Lanfear was actually getting really frustrated that Rand kept insisting they stand and fight, so she was like thinking "For the love of the Dark One!" (or however shadow people curse) and then just faked a whole tonne of them, and then she says something like "How many arrows do you have left?". Then the PoV voice notes how the sound came from every direction except the one they were heading. So either she was herding real animals -- in real time -- or she was just faking the noises which seems a lot simpler.