Egwene should be doing more in the borderlands.

[Hadilmir]

Six dreadlords can destroy an entire wall section apparently. Do you not think one could destroy a tent full of Aes Sedai considering they have no way to predict such an attack? Either way, that was simply an example, perhaps not the best one given the responses. Either way, the shadow isn't going to play fair. That's the only thing to get out of it.

 

David, I agree with the rest of your post, the part about an open field of battle was just me responding to Charlz.

[SuperFade]

Six dreadlords can destroy an entire wall section apparently. Do you not think one could destroy a tent full of Aes Sedai considering they have no way to predict such an attack? Either way, that was simply an example, perhaps not the best one given the responses. Either way, the shadow isn't going to play fair. That's the only thing to get out of it.

 

According to the Asha'man present, those six Dreadlords had been preparing with the One Power for a very long time. We can infer that the blast needed a long setup time that would be highly impractical in a pitched battle. They did not take part in the subsequent attack, presumably because whatever it was they did exhausted them and removed them from the battle. The bad guys don't play fair, but they are ultimately bound by the same rules as the good guys in that channeling a great deal in a short amount of time leaves the channeler exhausted.

[Hadilmir]

According to the Asha'man present, those six Dreadlords had been preparing with the One Power for a very long time. We can infer that the blast needed a long setup time that would be highly impractical in a pitched battle. They did not take part in the subsequent attack, presumably because whatever it was they did exhausted them and removed them from the battle. The bad guys don't play fair, but they are ultimately bound by the same rules as the good guys in that channeling a great deal in a short amount of time leaves the channeler exhausted.

Yes, I can see that it was a very bad example now. As long as you understand what I mean about battles getting messier as the fighting gets less fair, then feel free to tear that particular example to ribbons.

 

The point that Aes Sedai in an open battle is a big no-no did come across though, yes?

[Charlz Guybon]

There were only 300 Younglings. With 50,000 soldiers lead by Bryne, wagons and fortifications wouldn't be necessary. They could maneuver and defeat Trollocs in the field of battle.

You missed the point of my post. The Shadow will not fight fair. A single male dreadlord could cause unspeakable havoc to a bunch of female channelers simply because he is undetectable until it's too late. Then the army of 50,000 is stuck facing 100,000 with only half as many Aes Sedai. In short- they are doomed. Because of one male channeler. To make matters worse, the usefulness of Aes Sedai is destroyed by maneuvering, they can only efficiently attack trollocs that haven't reached the battle yet, otherwise they are picking off targets a few at a time and will quickly become exhausted.

 

 

Even discounting dirty tricks- On an open field of battle, it would not take long at all for the trollocs to reach the soldiers' lines unless some sort of shenanigans involving crossbows goes on (i.e. Mat bloody Cauthon). 50 fireballs the size of houses couldn't stop that mass of trollocs but so long, no matter how fast they're thrown and no unaided Aes Sedai could even hope to weave those. When the trollocs reach the army, things get messy. The trollocs will break the line of any army eventually; how well trained the men are is what determines how long. Once the fighting is that close, large efficient fireballs risk friendly fire. The Aes Sedai are forced to pick their targets and also shelter against trolloc arrows. Their usefulness is severely hampered and by this point, weaving Fire and Air will have tired most of the Aes Sedai. The battle is a disaster and becomes a rout as soldiers who've never seen trollocs before panic and myrddraal strike fear into their hearts. 100,000 trollocs is simply too much for an open battle with untested troops. You saw how well Ituralde did for that short time on flat ground. Those were Borderlanders against trollocs, it be much more like the Whitecloaks being ambushed on a larger scale.

 

Eh? Male dreadlords can't feel what women are doing either, they both suffer that disadvantage.

 

Maneuver is key to any form of warfare and with traveling through gateways formed by circles the Aes Sedai have a huge advantage over the shadowspawn. It allows you to attack at the right time and at the right angle. It's especially important when fighting superior numbers. For example if the army is striking the right flank of the Trolloc Horde, the Aes Sedai would be well served to blast the center in order to further disrupt the cohesion of the enemy formation.

 

First off Ituralde's army was mostly Domani (though veterans). His army faltered because they were outnumbered by 5 or 10 to 1 and the army and ashaman were exhausted from weeks of combat. A fresh army and aes sedai outnumbered 2 to 1 is a different story.

[Mats Spare Hat]

And yet Shadowspawn can sense even a single person channeling from miles away. We see that all through the beginnings of EoTW.

 

We even see how Seanchan damane sense Elayne's gateway north of Ebou Dar, and she's one of the minority given that we know can create a substantial gateway all by onesies. A female Dreadlord/Black Ajah/Forsaken, doesn't even have to be actively channeling, can sense that there's a boatload of channeling going on towards a certain location - the same being true for a male counterpart. We see that in the scene where Rand's cleansing Saidin.

 

We've seen a warder do what I assume is similar, but from only a backyards distance or less - if you want to take Moiraine at Vandene & Adeleas' house as an example.

 

---

 

Maneuver is important. Information is key.

 

I'll paraphrase, for funzies:

 

You're the fastest, most agile bomb-diffuser on the planet. You know: There's a nuclear bomb set to go off somewhere in the world, and you don't know where the bomb is.

 

I know: Where the bomb is.

 

---

 

...You still don't know where you need to be, when you need to be there, who's going to be there facing you, what capabilities they have. Will there be anyone local to help, any defensible position? Will it turn out the leader of local forces is a big darkfriend, who says beat it, stay out of my city?

 

Whoops, the invaders aren't where they thought they'd be, looks like we'll have to construct that huge gateway again. Say, you all feeling tired? Might have to do that another 5 times to get in the right spot, but I really don't know. Then I'm gonna need you to sling fire, heal all my dudes, and make more gateways because I need supplies, maybe a fresh lolly, too.

 

I can't believe they're outnumbering us more than what I thought they would! The nerve! That's not how they're supposed to come at me, this isn't how it's supposed to go!

 

[ptolemy99]

Large scale battles with power wielders will force both sides to consider tactics far more carefully. Each side can to a large degree negate the powers and effects of the other side. Lanfear was able to undo the weaves Rand held her with and used against her. In battles, it would only make sense to set up defensive and offensive circles. Half the circle would be there to counter any attack or weave of the enemy and the other to attack directly the main battle force against them. Depending on the skill and the number of channelers on each side, this could effectively nullify any advantage. Also, it would create a compelling motivation to send out specialized assassin teams to kill all channelers. I assume this was one of the reasons for the creation of the gholams.

 

There was a series of books written years ago by Joel Rosenberg that had a great line about wizards and battle. They are simply too great an asset for the other side to let them live. Therefore he said the reason you don't find many front line wizards with long lives is because MOST learned very quickly to NOT be front line wizards. The ones that didn't helped fill up the vacancies in the local cemetery.

 

I have wondered for a while about the Seanchan supremacy. They have only women who do not know or have the ability to detect male channeling. They are also overconfident and as they did in falme have areas where they keep large groups of damane. A few ashaman on a dark night could effectively cripple the Seanchan war machine by wiping them out. The books keep touting how well they use them in battle, but honestly, once both sides start using the One Power as a weapon, I don't see how the Seanchan could win. You could just hide one Ashaman in a city, teach him the invisibilty weave and in a few hours reduce the damane to muerto-damane.

 

Given time I suppose defenses could be put into place against something along these lines, but why would the randlanders wait for them to do that?

[Lacanos]

And yet Shadowspawn can sense even a single person channeling from miles away. We see that all through the beginnings of EoTW.

 

We even see how Seanchan damane sense Elayne's gateway north of Ebou Dar, and she's one of the minority given that we know can create a substantial gateway all by onesies. A female Dreadlord/Black Ajah/Forsaken, doesn't even have to be actively channeling, can sense that there's a boatload of channeling going on towards a certain location - the same being true for a male counterpart. We see that in the scene where Rand's cleansing Saidin.

 

We've seen a warder do what I assume is similar, but from only a backyards distance or less - if you want to take Moiraine at Vandene & Adeleas' house as an example.

 

 

Shadowspawn cannot sense a single person channeling from miles away. Myrddraal can sense channeling from a reasonable distance but not too far (or at least, this is the reasonable inference from them failing to sense Nynaeve's tiny channeling in book 3). Channelers can sense Shadowspawn from about a mile away.

 

The second point is fine, as long as you're not inferring women can sense men or anything bonkers like that?

 

And warders cannot sense channeling. They can sense shadowspawn, described in book two as a gift from the bond.

[David Selig]

We even see how Seanchan damane sense Elayne's gateway north of Ebou Dar, and she's one of the minority given that we know can create a substantial gateway all by onesies.

The Seanchan first arrived before the Gateway was opened, they most probably sensed the massive channelling when the Bowl was used. You can't sense a normal sized Gateway from the distance between Ebou Dar the Kin farm.

[Mats Spare Hat]

We even see how Seanchan damane sense Elayne's gateway north of Ebou Dar, and she's one of the minority given that we know can create a substantial gateway all by onesies.

The Seanchan first arrived before the Gateway was opened, they most probably sensed the massive channelling when the Bowl was used. You can't sense a normal sized Gateway from the distance between Ebou Dar the Kin farm.

 

 

Woop, my bad on that one eh!

 

@Lacanos: You're right about Warders sensing shadowspawn. I figured people would gather what I meant, without having expounded further? *shrug

[XXX]

Eh? Male dreadlords can't feel what women are doing either, they both suffer that disadvantage.

 

Maneuver is key to any form of warfare and with traveling through gateways formed by circles the Aes Sedai have a huge advantage over the shadowspawn. It allows you to attack at the right time and at the right angle. It's especially important when fighting superior numbers. For example if the army is striking the right flank of the Trolloc Horde, the Aes Sedai would be well served to blast the center in order to further disrupt the cohesion of the enemy formation.

 

First off Ituralde's army was mostly Domani (though veterans). His army faltered because they were outnumbered by 5 or 10 to 1 and the army and ashaman were exhausted from weeks of combat. A fresh army and aes sedai outnumbered 2 to 1 is a different story.

 

But females do not fight in armies in Randland so any female whether she is channeling or not can be targeted as a potential AS by the male dreadlords..while the females cannot isolate dread lords as a lot of male DF's will potentially fight with the armies of the shadow when the LB comes.

[DemandredFO]

The Aes Sedai cannot lead the battle, and I assume this will be one of the things Egwene and Rand Sedai clash over. Cadsuane and a very few other I would trust leading channelers in battle, but as far as I can see most have rested on the reputation they gained in the Trolloc Wars. The Asha'Man must lead they have been trained in war, the AS just throw the occasional fireball for reflex practice. Saerin was organizing some of the seanchan battle, but most were AS pathetic. The Trollocs, Myrdraal, Dreadlords and whatever else aren't going to line up and wait for AS to throw fire and lighting at them. e.g. one of the first things Egwene should've done on expelling the BA is dispatch on or two sisters to each of those border towers, not only to kill shadowspawn, but also to get the tower men out at the last minute. I have no doubt Logain would attempt it, but he's not in charge.

[Luckers]

I don't know if the Seanchan attack on the Tower can be taken as evidence of the Aes Sedai's ability. Never before had they faced such an assault, directly on the Tower, from the air, and a channeling force that was neither Darkfriend nor Shadowspawn.

 

Without the restriction of the Oaths, and in situations that are not a 'first in three thousand years' kind of event, Aes Sedai hold their own fairly well. Read the description of Kiruna at Dumai's Well's, or Mat's acknowledgement of Joline (despite her being a huge douche). Admittedly there are some fancy destructive weaves they could do with learning, but with the damane prisoners that could easily be in the bag by now. Plus never forget Egwene and Nynaeve know some nasty weaves from Moghedien they may yet share.

 

And too Brandon tends to be blunt when making points. In the Seanchan attack the point was the Aes Sedai were unprepared. That may not continue to hold true.

[Suttree]

I don't know if the Seanchan attack on the Tower can be taken as evidence of the Aes Sedai's ability. Never before had they faced such an assault, directly on the Tower, from the air, and a channeling force that was neither Darkfriend nor Shadowspawn.

 

Indeed, a surprise attack in the dead of night in addition to the points you mentioned doesn't really count in determining AS battle skills. Keep in mind the WT was undermined by the BA, Forsaken and Fain's influence as well, making it very difficult to have any unity

 

Unless Joline is an exception(very unlikely), based on Mat's reaction, Greens have an understanding of tactics and strategy equal to some Generals. Cadsuane led a solid defense during the cleansing and Dumai's Wells was fairly impressive as well. I think it is likely we will see some redemption in aMoL on this front.

[WWWwombat]

Egwene had to deal with a cold war between Aes Sedai factions and a Seanchan attack. Expecting her to immediately be able to deal with the threat in the Borderlands is ridiculous. Some people are just looking for reasons to dislike Egwene I think.

[DemandredFO]

Luckers, Kiruna nearly had to get herself killed to help and mat lost members of the band before the AS could or would help. Admittedly, I'm not a soldier or anything but I've read enough history and fantasy to know that being surprised in battle once is all it takes. The trollocs are blunt instruments but the AS and warders kill them and miss the Dragkar or grayman slipping in behind them. Thing is the AS should be out working with armies because an army of AS while powerful can only be one place at a time.

wwwWombat, true Egwene had to deal with all that, but the shadow didn't wait.

[Suttree]

Luckers, Kiruna nearly had to get herself killed to help

 

Kiruna is the sister to the King of Arafel. It would be a fairly logical assumption that she has a ton of experience and tactical knowledge in fighting the shadow. She was very impressive at Dumais Wells, not sure why you raise the point of her having to feel in danger because the 3 oaths won't hold when fighting shadowspawn.

[WWWwombat]

wwwWombat, true Egwene had to deal with all that, but the shadow didn't wait.

 

No it didn't. But Egwene is combating the Shadow as best she can. The White Tower, having a basically a monopoly on saidar and strong political influence, needs to be unified.

[AshaShan]

Kiruna is the sister to the King of Arafel. It would be a fairly logical assumption that she has a ton of experience and tactical knowledge in fighting the shadow. She was very impressive at Dumais Wells, not sure why you raise the point of her having to feel in danger because the 3 oaths won't hold when fighting shadowspawn.

 

Kiruna struck an impressive pose while walking through an army of Aiel, true. She also ignored Perrin's battle plan, the one she had been present in the making of, and decided to get a boatload of Two Rivers archers killed by leading them into a melee fight, as Perrin later rebukes her for. She thereby deprived the would-be rescuers of long-range artillery support of the kind that wiped out so many Shaido at Malden in exchange for the dubious offensive power of her fire arrows and Warder guards. I put it to you that five volleys from the longbows would have inflicted far, far greater casualities on the Shaido than Kiruna managed, and that with Kiruna concentrating on defending those archers they would have had time to empty each of their entire quivers. Her decision to enter the fray was that of an incompetant military officer.

 

Leaving aside the still unanswered question of what she and the other Aes Sedai would have done with Rand if they got to him, Kiruna deliberatly messed up the battle plan at Dumai's Wells. She could have pointed out ahead of time that she had no intention of going along with it but instead allowed Perrin to think she was and then pretty much screwed him over. Her actions were vain and short-sighted and caused more harm to the side she was fighting on than the one she was fighting against. But hey, at least she looked good doing it.

 

Far from being an example of the Green Ajah living up to their moniker, she is yet another example of how comical that moniker is. Battle Ajah. *snort* They are the WOT equivalent of all those spoiled aristocratic officers who appear in every Napoleonic era war story, wearing silly wigs, flattering each other about what good soldiers they are and then inevitably getting their whole platoon killed. Paper tigers, every last one.

 

Well, except Cadsuane, that is.

[Luckers]

Luckers, Kiruna nearly had to get herself killed to help and mat lost members of the band before the AS could or would help.

 

Kiruna did not nearly get herself killed, she had to place herself in danger, but she did not suffer any injuries, or lose a warder--in effect she took care of herself just fine within the confines of the Oaths, as did those with the band, and the Oaths will be a restriction which will not be in place during TG--note the Cleansing defense--largely enacted by Aes Sedai--or the defence of Algarin's manor. Aes Sedai made a fine showing for themselves.

 

Admittedly, I'm not a soldier or anything but I've read enough history and fantasy to know that being surprised in battle once is all it takes

 

All what takes? Aes Sedai have proven themselves quite capable in your normal battle, why would they be surprised in any way?

 

 

Kiruna struck an impressive pose while walking through an army of Aiel, true. She also ignored Perrin's battle plan, the one she had been present in the making of, and decided to get a boatload of Two Rivers archers killed by leading them into a melee fight, as Perrin later rebukes her for.

 

Which Kiruna was right to do. Think on what would have happened if Rand got taken to the Tower, or captured by the Shaido... Perrin's plan left the Aes Sedai--the most potent weapons he had--useless. Bearing in mind neither Perrin nor Kiruna had any idea Taim was coming, then yes--the risk, and the price, was definately worth taking.

 

They were hopelessly outnumbered, and the only thing that mattered was saving the Dragon. Perrin let his feeling that the Aes Sedai should be protected guide his strategy, and Kiruna breaking with that was the right choice.

 

She thereby deprived the would-be rescuers of long-range artillery support of the kind that wiped out so many Shaido at Malden in exchange for the dubious offensive power of her fire arrows and Warder guards. I put it to you that five volleys from the longbows would have inflicted far, far greater casualities on the Shaido than Kiruna managed, and that with Kiruna concentrating on defending those archers they would have had time to empty each of their entire quivers. Her decision to enter the fray was that of an incompetant military officer.

 

 

I'd remind you that the Two Rivers men chose to follow her, based on Perrin's order. That was not her doing, and she couldn't simply stay to babysit the Two Rivers men when she and the other sister were the best chance, and only chance of rescuing the Dragon, prior to Taim's arrival.

 

Aside from which the best plan considering the numbers was for someone to punch through and pull Rand out. That was what Kiruna attempted.

 

Far from being an example of the Green Ajah living up to their moniker, she is yet another example of how comical that moniker is.

 

Kiruna enacted the best strategy availliable given the logistics.

[Hadilmir]

Without the restriction of the Oaths, and in situations that are not a 'first in three thousand years' kind of event, Aes Sedai hold their own fairly well. Read the description of Kiruna at Dumai's Well's, or Mat's acknowledgement of Joline (despite her being a huge douche). Admittedly there are some fancy destructive weaves they could do with learning, but with the damane prisoners that could easily be in the bag by now. Plus never forget Egwene and Nynaeve know some nasty weaves from Moghedien they may yet share.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this. The description of Kiruna holds true to everything I've said, wading in behind her three warders and striking at individuals. The passage about Joline is just the same. "...but the destruction they wrought did nothing to slow the attack." Aes Sedai fight as individuals who throw fireballs, unable to change the tide of battles between hundred thousands. I'm not suggesting they're useless, just that they are not as effective as most people in this thread seem to believe.

 

*Wow, shouldn't have taken so long looking up those passages, the last 3 posts popped up out of nowhere. Probably my fault for accidentally reading the entire ending Mat segment in KoD lol

[Luckers]

Here is another point--the Tower sisters at Dumai's Wells, 32 (minus those shielding Rand) held their own against 200+ Shaido Wise Ones and 40,000 spears WITH the restrictions of the Oaths. That should speak for itself.

 

'm curious as to what you mean by this. The description of Kiruna holds true to everything I've said, wading in behind her three warders and striking at individuals. The passage about Joline is just the same. "...but the destruction they wrought did nothing to slow the attack." Aes Sedai fight as individuals who throw fireballs, unable to change the tide of battles between hundred thousands. I'm not suggesting they're useless, just that they are not as effective as most people in this thread seem to believe.

 

 

Kiruna enacted the best plan possible given the numbers--no way 90 Wise Ones and 9 sisters, plus a few thousand spears were never going to defeat 40,000 Shaido, 200+ Wise Ones, and 36 sisters. The only hope was to punch through, get Rand, and get out--its what Perrin tried to do, but those best equiped to do so were the Aes Sedai, and that was what Kiruna attempted.

 

In all likelyhood, she would have failed. But it was the best option she had.

[Hadilmir]

I think we're talking about two different things here, Luckers.

[Luckers]

I think we're talking about two different things here, Luckers.

 

I don't think so--you were saying Aes Sedai only ever throw fireballs and fight in their little area, and that as such they are not as effective as the damane and the Asha'men--or at least that is my understanding. I was making the point in return that for Kiruna's agenda, carving a path for herself through to Rand was precisely what she needed to be doing. Wasting strength killing loads of Aiel was pointless, and a violation of the Oath--all she needed to do was carve a path, and that was what she was doing.

 

If you need to see Aes Sedai doing the same sort of wide-scale destruction, look to Algarin's manor in KoD. There the Aes Sedai are unbound by the Oath, and are just as deadly as the Asha'men, before Rand's new weaves came into it. Both Kiruna and the three with Mat were restrained, and as such limited to responding to a specific threat to their lives--fireballs. Anything more destructive might have struck at those that were not a threat.

[Entreri]

While Aes Sedai are the overall better trained, but they are far too limited by the 3 Oaths and are not used to fighting. The damane raid almost overcame the WH.

 

Asha'man would do much much better against Damane:

 

1) Men are stronger in the Power and damane cannot link

2) Ash'man would know defensive Weaves and damane are all offensive (see Alivia vs. Lanfear).

3) Generally men are also stronger in Fire and Earth...which are the typical weaves we see damane using.

4) Asha'man have knowledge of the capabilities of female channelers and have fought them (e.g. bonded AS) and damane have no clue.

5) Men can at least tell if women are channeling if close enough, women are never forewarned (perfect for surprise attacks, think of a small team of Asha'man taking out damane behind the lines...Illusion to infiltrate...even Semirhage was able to easily decimate the Royal family).

 

 

 

 

Instead of AS >> Damane (who can't link, who know at best very few ways of defending themselves), because of the 3 Oaths AS >= Damane. First strike is quite a powerful weapon in battle and can annihilate the enemy forces. The AS hesitation will cost them dearly.

 

 

3 Oaths are foolish and also gives the perception to the public that without them AS are too dangerous to be let out, thus somewhat similar effect as the damane leashes, not to mention it cuts lifespan by 1/2.

 

 

Asha'man = AS of AoL, not constrained by the 3 Oaths and they know defensive weaves.

[Suttree]

4) Asha'man have knowledge of the capabilities of female channelers and have fought them (e.g. bonded AS) and damane have no clue.

 

Didn't Damane fight Asha'man in tPoD? It has been commented on how good the Seanchan are at adapting new tactics.

 

5) Men can at least tell if women are channeling if close enough, women are never forewarned (perfect for surprise attacks, think of a small team of Asha'man taking out damane behind the lines...Illusion to infiltrate...even Semirhage was able to easily decimate the Royal family).

 

Not always true, women can now hide channeling. Recall Rand in KoD being surprised that Cads and Nyn already held the source.

 

Asha'man = AS of AoL, not constrained by the 3 Oaths and they know defensive weaves.

 

How does that follow? Because the Asha'man aren't constrained by oaths and are good fighters they equal AOL AS? That is a fairly large stretch.