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Worst Fates


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Granted we know she will be reconnected with Gaidal, but Birgitte's story is pretty sad.

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The Chosen aren't necessarily the same from Age to Age. For one, we know that the Pattern does not provide complete predetermination. For another, channelers can be subverted via the 13x13 method.

 

In fact, we have no reason to believe that any of the Chosen, except maybe Ishamael, are eternal servants of the Dark One.

 

You're right, but IIRC channeling is from the soul (or at least partially). So there would just be only two strong channelers otherwise (the Dragon and the Nae'blis). All others would disappear if balefire destroyed someone forever.

 

Ah, I misinterpreted your point. Yeah, that's correct.

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Well, the fact that Shaidar Haran likes it, but Graendal not, compared with what Myrddraal like, lets me think it is not a good fate. I would say, worse than having to listen to someone else. I mean, the control Moridin has over Cyndane and Moghedien is very large, but as long as they fulfill his tasks, they don't have to fear for anything.

Moghedien went through the same thing with Shaidar Haran. So did Mesaana. Mesaana got off a bit easier by not being mindtrapped but now she's a vegetable.

 

 

Ryme and Galina have the worst fates, imo. Ryma wasn't just a damane. They used her to try to figure out whether Aes Sedai really can't lie. She had worse treatment than any other damane.

Edited by Deadsy
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Well, the fact that Shaidar Haran likes it, but Graendal not, compared with what Myrddraal like, lets me think it is not a good fate. I would say, worse than having to listen to someone else. I mean, the control Moridin has over Cyndane and Moghedien is very large, but as long as they fulfill his tasks, they don't have to fear for anything.

Moghedien went through the same thing with Shaidar Haran. So did Mesaana. Mesaana got off a bit easier by not being mindtrapped but now she's a vegetable.

 

 

Ryme and Galina have the worst fates, imo. Ryma wasn't just a damane. They used her to try to figure out whether Aes Sedai really can't lie. She had worse treatment than any other damane.

 

Maybe Mesaana did, but where had Moghedien the same thing?

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The Chosen aren't necessarily the same from Age to Age. For one, we know that the Pattern does not provide complete predetermination. For another, channelers can be subverted via the 13x13 method.

 

In fact, we have no reason to believe that any of the Chosen, except maybe Ishamael, are eternal servants of the Dark One.

 

You're right, but IIRC channeling is from the soul (or at least partially). So there would just be only two strong channelers otherwise (the Dragon and the Nae'blis). All others would disappear if balefire destroyed someone forever.

 

Ah, I misinterpreted your point. Yeah, that's correct.

 

You did not misinterpreted my point. I changed my point, so that there would still be a reason balefire doesn't destroy someone forever.

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Well, the fact that Shaidar Haran likes it, but Graendal not, compared with what Myrddraal like, lets me think it is not a good fate. I would say, worse than having to listen to someone else. I mean, the control Moridin has over Cyndane and Moghedien is very large, but as long as they fulfill his tasks, they don't have to fear for anything.

Moghedien went through the same thing with Shaidar Haran. So did Mesaana. Mesaana got off a bit easier by not being mindtrapped but now she's a vegetable.

 

 

Ryme and Galina have the worst fates, imo. Ryma wasn't just a damane. They used her to try to figure out whether Aes Sedai really can't lie. She had worse treatment than any other damane.

 

Maybe Mesaana did, but where had Moghedien the same thing?

She was raped in the vacuole. In the chapter "Mindtrap" in Crown of Swords.

 

Far more cruel than Trollocs, who were merely bloodthirsty, Myrddraal were cold and dispassionate in it. Shaidar Haran often showed amusement, though. So far she felt lucky to have only bruises. Most women would have been on the brink of madness by now, if not beyond.

 

It's not stated right out, but RJ confirmed it at a signing. Also, we know Mesaana was raped, so it just makes it more obvious that Moghedien was too. (I don't see how you can say Mesaana is a maybe).

 

Anyhow, this is from a 1998 signing report in Palo Alto:

Chris used his moment with the Creator to open himself up to a huge RAFO, but *his* question was answered. Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."
Edited by Deadsy
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Well, the fact that Shaidar Haran likes it, but Graendal not, compared with what Myrddraal like, lets me think it is not a good fate. I would say, worse than having to listen to someone else. I mean, the control Moridin has over Cyndane and Moghedien is very large, but as long as they fulfill his tasks, they don't have to fear for anything.

Moghedien went through the same thing with Shaidar Haran. So did Mesaana. Mesaana got off a bit easier by not being mindtrapped but now she's a vegetable.

 

 

Ryme and Galina have the worst fates, imo. Ryma wasn't just a damane. They used her to try to figure out whether Aes Sedai really can't lie. She had worse treatment than any other damane.

 

Maybe Mesaana did, but where had Moghedien the same thing?

She was raped in the vacuole. In the chapter "Mindtrap" in Crown of Swords.

 

Far more cruel than Trollocs, who were merely bloodthirsty, Myrddraal were cold and dispassionate in it. Shaidar Haran often showed amusement, though. So far she felt lucky to have only bruises. Most women would have been on the brink of madness by now, if not beyond.

 

It's not stated right out, but RJ confirmed it at a signing. Also, we know Mesaana was raped, so it just makes it more obvious that Moghedien was too. (I don't see how you can say Mesaana is a maybe).

 

Anyhow, this is from a 1998 signing report in Palo Alto:

Chris used his moment with the Creator to open himself up to a huge RAFO, but *his* question was answered. Chris asked if Moghedien had been raped by Shaidar Haran. The answer was "Yes, among other things."

 

You're right. I think I read the part about the vacuole only once. And Mesaana, well, I just didn't think about it. It is not as obvious (for me) as Graendal.

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Cabriana Mercedes anyone? She got tortured by both Shaidar and Semirhage...

Shaidar visiting Semirhage for 3 minutes to ask about her "patient" does not mean he tortured her. She clearly hadn't been touched when Semirhage started on her, and I don't see why SH would need to do anything after she was done. Semirhage likely just killed her once she had all the information she could get.

 

SH is used as punishment on Forsaken who aren't going to be killed. I don't think he tortures random people for fun.

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I always found Jaichim Carridin's death to be disturbing. I don't know if it was the death itself or the way Jordan wrote it, but that part always made me put down the book for a couple minutes.

 

VERY disturbing, yet, we shouldn't be surprised at what the shadow does to its own

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From Graendals POV in the prologue of TOM, I think there is quite a chance we can add aran'gar to the list of forsaken SH had a little fun with. Someone who thinks it is important should ask Brandon.

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Unfortunately, only the bad guys ever get killed in these books (which is kinda unrealistic, but whatevs). But some of the deaths or near-deaths are really terrible (albeit deserved in some cases). But which fates stand out as the worse?

 

I'd say Mesaana's brain getting scrambled has to be one of the top contenders. She's not dead, she's just dumb, literally, and it's a fate she'd have to endure until she dies. Definitely not the life of glory a Chosen would envision.

 

Also, the gholam that gets trapped via Skimming would boast a terrible fate. I don't think it has feelings, but it would have to be miserable to be lost in there for eternity, since it probably can't die.

 

Elaida's fate is hilarious because it's so ironic. Going from Amrylin Seat to mindless slave would suck. I'd say the same for Liandrin, since Moghedian trapped her with a weave that would prevent her from channeling and from killing herself, so she could only endure enslavement. Similarly, Galina's capture by Therava and a lifetime sentence as gaishan.

 

On that topic, Moghedian and Cyndane being mindtrapped.

 

And anyone who's been Compulsed.

 

I suppose I look at this a different way. If people get the fate they "deserve", then I don't consider that a bad thing and feel absolutely no sympathy at all for them. For example, Galina got just what she deserved. I love it that Therava will use her until her death and she will be miserable the entire time. The only "better" fate for her would've been if Therava had been a man - there would be a certain justice to having her handed off to a man (given how much she hates men) who would abuse her the way Therava will, but oh well. You take what you can get.

 

My opinion on which characters have gotten stuck with the worst fates:

 

1. Rand - Sorry, but there are no comparisons to the utter hell this man got handed. The man has no future other than pain, death, and being treated like pure and utter crap. That's the thanks he gets for saving the world from complete destruction. I wouldn't have blamed him one bit if he had headed to the Waste to get drunk and left all of those ingrates to fend for themselves.

 

2. Nynaeve - Yes, Nynaeve. She's married to a man who lusts for death and cares more about his dead owner than about her. Once he's dead and gone, which won't be too long now, all she has is her "friends", of which only Rand truly cares for her. And he'll be dead soon as well, leaving her with basically nothing but love for people who loathe her. Oh yeah, and she is part of an organization in which she really doesn't belong and is forced into complete and mindless subservience by the Amyrlin (her "friend" who runs the place and gets off on making Nynaeve grovel to her). Nynaeve, being who she is, will never tell the AS to screw themselves (as she should) because she cares for Egwene and some others there and will take all the crap they ram down her throat. Stupid of her, yes, but she's soft at heart so it would not be like her to do otherwise. So, all in all, her life will suck donkey balls and, unfortunately for her, it'll be very long.

 

3. Gawyn - I hate this character with a passion, but no one deserves the utter crap he got handed in ToM. He had to become a mindless slave to get the woman he "loves" and will have no life outside of existing to serve her every whim and taking abusive crap from her if he doesn't swallow her abuse quickly enough. I wish he had died.

 

4. Birgitte - I feel terrible for her, but I'm willing to bet she'll die soon. Likely, she'll die because of Elayne's "Min said I'll be fine!" idiocy.

 

5. Mat - He's married to a woman who can channel, is a noble, and who has very little in the way of true heart. He's in for a world of hurt once TG is done. No doubt he'll end up bonded (once Tuon channels and bends knee to Egwene), at which point, he'll be expected to become a mindless lapdog like Gawyn. He really deserved better.

 

6. Verin - She busted her backside to try to help the Light, rooted out almost every single one of the Black Ajah, and died in order to hand the entire victory over to Egweenie. She also deserved better, and should have been the one to take full credit for her victory. She also would have been a huge asset to Rand if she had lived.

 

7. This is more of a suspected thing than a fulfilled reality, but so far I think Logain has been handed a crap deal. He tried to warn Rand about Taim but Rand refused to listen and assumed he was just jealous of Taim. He should've played more of a part in things instead of being kicked to the bottom of the pile. No doubt his "glory" will either be dying saving some crappy Aes Sedai's life or bending knee to Egwene and allowing her and her wenches to bond all channeling men into a lifetime of slavery to Aes Sedai. Which brings me to...

 

8. All of the bonded Asha'man. Even Narishma, who I loathe with an undying passion. They deserve better than to be mindless lapdogs.

 

9. Hopper. :sad:

 

10. Any man who can channel. Before, they had to deal with going mad and being hunted like prey. Now, and in the future, they'll be enslaved by Aes Sedai. What they have to look forward to is the equivalent of being collared. Some of them just won't be abused quite as badly (unless Merise is the one who bonds them, since she gets off on beating her Warders into submission).

 

The people who got what they deserved, so far:

 

1. Galina

2. Elaida

3. Semirhage

4. Mesaana (Surprised? Sorry, but if she was stupid enough to buy into Egwene's "I'm a god and you're crap!" bullshit, she deserves to be a drooling idiot until she dies.)

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Well obviously people like Mesaana, Liandrin, Galina, and Moghedian deserve their punishments, as they've delivered similar punishments to people (Moghedian sent many people to be mindtrapped) and have done other heinous acts. But they still suffer horrible fates, even if they are deserved. I like that most of them are actually ironic (e.g. Liandrin getting collared as a damane after sending Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne to such a fate a few books earlier; and Elaida being captured by the Seanchan).

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Unfortunately, only the bad guys ever get killed in these books (which is kinda unrealistic, but whatevs). But some of the deaths or near-deaths are really terrible (albeit deserved in some cases). But which fates stand out as the worse?

 

I'd say Mesaana's brain getting scrambled has to be one of the top contenders. She's not dead, she's just dumb, literally, and it's a fate she'd have to endure until she dies. Definitely not the life of glory a Chosen would envision.

 

Also, the gholam that gets trapped via Skimming would boast a terrible fate. I don't think it has feelings, but it would have to be miserable to be lost in there for eternity, since it probably can't die.

 

Elaida's fate is hilarious because it's so ironic. Going from Amrylin Seat to mindless slave would suck. I'd say the same for Liandrin, since Moghedian trapped her with a weave that would prevent her from channeling and from killing herself, so she could only endure enslavement. Similarly, Galina's capture by Therava and a lifetime sentence as gaishan.

 

On that topic, Moghedian and Cyndane being mindtrapped.

 

And anyone who's been Compulsed.

 

I suppose I look at this a different way. If people get the fate they "deserve", then I don't consider that a bad thing and feel absolutely no sympathy at all for them. For example, Galina got just what she deserved. I love it that Therava will use her until her death and she will be miserable the entire time. The only "better" fate for her would've been if Therava had been a man - there would be a certain justice to having her handed off to a man (given how much she hates men) who would abuse her the way Therava will, but oh well. You take what you can get.

 

My opinion on which characters have gotten stuck with the worst fates:

 

1. Rand - Sorry, but there are no comparisons to the utter hell this man got handed. The man has no future other than pain, death, and being treated like pure and utter crap. That's the thanks he gets for saving the world from complete destruction. I wouldn't have blamed him one bit if he had headed to the Waste to get drunk and left all of those ingrates to fend for themselves.

 

2. Nynaeve - Yes, Nynaeve. She's married to a man who lusts for death and cares more about his dead owner than about her. Once he's dead and gone, which won't be too long now, all she has is her "friends", of which only Rand truly cares for her. And he'll be dead soon as well, leaving her with basically nothing but love for people who loathe her. Oh yeah, and she is part of an organization in which she really doesn't belong and is forced into complete and mindless subservience by the Amyrlin (her "friend" who runs the place and gets off on making Nynaeve grovel to her). Nynaeve, being who she is, will never tell the AS to screw themselves (as she should) because she cares for Egwene and some others there and will take all the crap they ram down her throat. Stupid of her, yes, but she's soft at heart so it would not be like her to do otherwise. So, all in all, her life will suck donkey balls and, unfortunately for her, it'll be very long.

 

3. Gawyn - I hate this character with a passion, but no one deserves the utter crap he got handed in ToM. He had to become a mindless slave to get the woman he "loves" and will have no life outside of existing to serve her every whim and taking abusive crap from her if he doesn't swallow her abuse quickly enough. I wish he had died.

 

4. Birgitte - I feel terrible for her, but I'm willing to bet she'll die soon. Likely, she'll die because of Elayne's "Min said I'll be fine!" idiocy.

 

5. Mat - He's married to a woman who can channel, is a noble, and who has very little in the way of true heart. He's in for a world of hurt once TG is done. No doubt he'll end up bonded (once Tuon channels and bends knee to Egwene), at which point, he'll be expected to become a mindless lapdog like Gawyn. He really deserved better.

 

6. Verin - She busted her backside to try to help the Light, rooted out almost every single one of the Black Ajah, and died in order to hand the entire victory over to Egweenie. She also deserved better, and should have been the one to take full credit for her victory. She also would have been a huge asset to Rand if she had lived.

 

7. This is more of a suspected thing than a fulfilled reality, but so far I think Logain has been handed a crap deal. He tried to warn Rand about Taim but Rand refused to listen and assumed he was just jealous of Taim. He should've played more of a part in things instead of being kicked to the bottom of the pile. No doubt his "glory" will either be dying saving some crappy Aes Sedai's life or bending knee to Egwene and allowing her and her wenches to bond all channeling men into a lifetime of slavery to Aes Sedai. Which brings me to...

 

8. All of the bonded Asha'man. Even Narishma, who I loathe with an undying passion. They deserve better than to be mindless lapdogs.

 

9. Hopper. :sad:

 

10. Any man who can channel. Before, they had to deal with going mad and being hunted like prey. Now, and in the future, they'll be enslaved by Aes Sedai. What they have to look forward to is the equivalent of being collared. Some of them just won't be abused quite as badly (unless Merise is the one who bonds them, since she gets off on beating her Warders into submission).

 

The people who got what they deserved, so far:

 

1. Galina

2. Elaida

3. Semirhage

4. Mesaana (Surprised? Sorry, but if she was stupid enough to buy into Egwene's "I'm a god and you're crap!" bullshit, she deserves to be a drooling idiot until she dies.)

 

You don't like Egwene?

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nope. but then again, who does in these forums save a few?

 

I do. And even more because everyone dislikes her so much.

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Just a comment on the fates of WOT characters... I know a lot of people dislike that there isn't more character deaths but I think the ironic nature of (insert previously mention character/situation here) is RJ's way of causing satisfying endings to plots/characters. Death (NOT Moridin :rolleyes: )is the author's easy way out when irony is more satisfying. :jordan:

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Alviarian's predecessor, Jarna Malari, deserves a mention. Being stuffed into some ter'angreal and then spending the next ten days screaming before you die does not sound particularly pleasant.

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Alviarian's predecessor, Jarna Malari, deserves a mention. Being stuffed into some ter'angreal and then spending the next ten days screaming before you die does not sound particularly pleasant.

 

I didn't knew that happened to her.

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nope. but then again, who does in these forums save a few?

 

I do. And even more because everyone dislikes her so much.

Kinda of ...I don´t wanna say stupid but I´ll say it, stupid reason to like her or anyone. You like her cause of her actions, how she is or how she is written or w/e. To like her just because so many seem to hate her is meh.

 

Moridin suffers the worst fate. Tired of living in a dreadful forever existence with no escape, sloppy Forsaken-friends, constant rebirth, people trapped in a wheel of repetition, he trying to save the day and FREE all the poor souls and he gets the name-calling and bad rep -he is evil tossed at him. Does make him sad to think of it.

Edited by Logains Pet
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