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[BASIC] Star Wars Mafia GAME OVER!!!


Sakaea

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Posted

in the interest of self preservation and the game I'm going to make one final defense of myself

I wont be posting again after today until I get back from being out of town since


i hate to throw this out there, but this Jack/Nol thing stinks of a gambit. it feels too planned honestly for my liking.

 

first Nol bandwagons but claims he didn't know it was the 3rd vote. Jack immediately jumps on Nol and calls him out for it as do many others. Nol refuses to accept that his vote is a bandwagon vote and focuses mostly on Jack out of everyone FoSing him over this.

 

 

i think we shoudl go with one or the other today, it's more likely one or both of these players are scum imo given the reactions. Nols over reation to 1 vote on him is pinging me hard tbh, but so is Jacks actions in this whoel thing.

 

then we have Blackie, who is seeimg more like an opportunistic player and is siding himself with Nol. i'd be good with a lynch on any of these 3, but i think we' get more info from lynching either jack or Nol and letting the finder veiw one of the remaining two.

as I go through the thread this post (#91) stands out

Jack pointed out on page 19 before we lynched him that you were linking players together Red (as you are right here very early in the game)

your response is that you were linking claims not players but isn't that what you just did in the above post? looks like you just got caught in a lie

 

it's also odd that you've linked all three of us and so far 2/3 are townie

to me it seems like you've been setting us up all along for a fall

 

reference quotes:

BG i agree 100% if Jack flips town, Nol is next up for me as well. if Luke is town then thers no way imo that Darth could be anything but scum honestly. but if Luke is scum, then we can't trust these role reveals and i'll have to appluad Jack on almost costing us a lynch with this misdirection.

Linking players is scummy Red lol.

 

Don't lynch Nolder after me. Lynch Red.

Jack the only reason why i say that is because Nol is claiming to be Darth Vader and a townie.

 

since your Luke, obvioulsy a town alignment on your character would disprove this claim as far as i'm concenred because of the importance of these two characters and how clearly defined in terms of bad/good they are in the movie's (thansk Adella for listing the canon def on Vader).

 

 

so it's not people i'm linking (linking one persons actions to another) it's character alignments i'm linking, which players have no control over. it's not linking more so than clearing up a question i have concerning game mechanics. stop trying to twist it.


Alright. What with this Blackhoof flip of Town, this is what I think. Jack, BG, and Nolder are NOT Mafia.

 

care to explain your reasoning behind this?? or are you just using the cops death to your teams advantage?

 

 

i'm thinking theres a good chance most of the scum team was on that lynch; especially seeing how fast it built up. with 12 people in this game, and this being a basic set up i'm thinking we have between 3 & 4 anti town.

 

 

the final VC was this

 

Nolder (1) -- Red

 

Jack (2) -- Blackhoof, Millon

 

Blackhoof (7) -- Amadine, Nolder, Jack, Kate, Christine, Adella, BG

 

No Vote (2) - Wolfbrother, Lessa

 

 

 

chances are majority of the scujm team was on the blackie lynch; with maybe 1 or 2 team mates not on his vote to keep us from pinning them all together. this is all i have for right now; i want to wait until day to make a further analysis.

well would you look at that

linking players again, this time based on votes and not character alignments

two of the people on that lynch are dead and proven townies and here when someone (Christine) speaks out against your linking me and Jack together you jump on it and baselessly accuse their credibility, implying they're Mafia protecting a teammate just for giving their opinion


 

So, after a few re-reads the main thing that stuck out to me, other than Hoof flipping as cop, was this:

 

If I stay where I am - Black flips town, I'm good. Scum - Screwed.

 

I'm just trying to work out how Hoof's flipping of town was good for you. After the lynch, and when everyone found out the Hoof was cop you say this:

 

Pfff. Whatever. Never again will I be pressured. Somehow people will think this makes me look bad.

 

The part I bolded gets me. We just lost our cop and you just seem to brush it off. If it was a vanilla lynch you could say "well and good. Day one, usually a town is lynched". You not realise this gives scum an advantage? Sure, noone knew Hoof was cop until the coroner's report, and his actions did seem scummy during day one, but what gets me is that after it is known you just say something like "Pfff. Whatever".

 

also, i agree with wolfbro on this.

 

 

my top scum list is

 

Nol

Jack

BG

 

 

i'd be good with a lynch on any of these guys today

 

this looks like more linking to me

with BG thrown in there as a light bus on a teammate

you hadn't said anything about BG up until this post so why was he in your top 3 at that point in time?


 

I thought AMA made the correct play tbh. If she has a target on her hade she can protect herself and stop the nk. But the mafia will think she is goin to protect herself so they go random, leaving Nolder alive because he is an easy lynch. So the mafia will probably not target Nol, or AMA tonight and in fact target someone random. Leaving myself, Christine, Kate and BG for AMA and the mafia to chose from. Or the mafia could go for Nol as the easy kill because they just need one more successful kill tonight

If we lynch a townie. The mafia an AMA both have a wifom tonight, it is one howeve that plays slightly in the towns advantage.

 

i don't like the implications this makes. fact is, Nol has claimed DV, a known villan in this series. another thing i'd liek to poitn out is that if Darth does end up being townie, whose to say that Luke hasn't been made scum.

 

 

this woudl make sense as to why you pushed for a mass role reveal,because who would doubt Luke being town. this is why i'm more comfy with a Nol lynch, because if he does flip town then i'll be looking at you and laya to flip as scum.

 

 

also, as i said before, i don't like the implications you leave for Nol eing left alive. you fail to mention that the scum woudl leave him alive if he was scum, instead choosing to post somethign which clears him instead. also, i don't like how your trying to direct Ama as to who to view. as far as i'm concerned we shoudl leave the whole "who the healer should veiw" in the back groudn so it leaves the scum guessing that much more.

more and more linking

the bolded part is really interesting in that, when I flipped town if being lynched Jack would surely be lynched the next day

and honestly it's almost visa versa

and Red really seems to support that idea heavily

when you get to choose between two townies, one being DV and the other being Luke, it makes more sense to lynch the DV townie because then it becomes much much easier to push on Luke

especially when you've been linking the two players all game already

Posted

It's under miller/mason groups. It's there. Red I believe your scum and your grasping suspicions are prrof enough for me to personally vet Nolder and incriminate Adella.

 

i'm not grasping for straws, i just don't trust you. i'mthe only perosn to bring up the point that "if Vader is town, then Luke could be scum" option and now your pushing for my lynch. coud be i've stumbled onto something.

 

liek i said, if the mod did make known goodies the scum and known baddies town; then this does explain to me why your almost giddy for a mass reveal and is almost enough to make me switch my vote from Nol to you

 

point is, for the entire movie set (3 - 6) Vader was a bad guy. he did bad things and tried to kill everyone. his redemeaning himself is moot imo, becuase it still doesn't negate all the bad things Vader did.

well that's your opinion

personally I'd agree that Vader should be just a bad guy but perhaps our mod sees it another way and/or is just trying to be tricky?

 

i realize this, which is why i'm pressuring and FoSing jack so hard.

 

 

especailly when he says stuff like "You'd vote Vader over Luke Ama??" it makes me suspect that something isn't right; especially with how giddy Jack is over these reveals and how center stage he's pushed them.

 

 

 

i woudl suggest we vote the only person not to claim and leave it to the finder, but thats no good. Jack or Nol will give us the most info as far as game set up, and going off player reactions souly i'm starting to lean more towards Jack. i say these two, because they have uncontested main character claims. and will directly clear or implicate the other as far as alignment.

 

for instance if we lynch Nol and he flips town, then chances are Luke is scum and that as good as outs jack. on the flip side, if Nol flips scum, this will clear Jack imo.

tons more linking

but that's not what's important here

look at how Red keeps saying Jack is "giddy" over the roleclaims

as I was reading Jack never once struck me as "giddy"

here's all his posts from when roleclaiming started to this quote

does he seem "giddy" to any of you? why would Red say something like this when it's obviously not the case?

 

 

I think we should all character claim. We don't have a finder or a vig. It seems Sakea has just used main characters so we can't pretty much be hurt by character claims at this point. After all, the mafia know who is mafia and who is town.

 

I'm Luke Skywalker. If you don't want to reveal, then that's fine, but I think this is the best course of actions ATM.

 

So

 

Reveals:

 

1. BG - R2D2

2. Jack - Luke Skywalker

3. Christine - Chewbaka

4. Wolf - Princess Leia

5. Kate - Ewok

 

Left to Reveal

 

Nolder, Red, Adella, Amadine, Millon

 

Since we are looking at a three man mafia team the above left to reveals are my top suspects.

 

UNVOTE and vote Nolder

 

This is a basic gam Nolder

Lulz Nolder, who is your miller partner. Millers communicate off thread in a communication group like masons. So your partner can vet the both of you.

So Amadine, you vote for Luke over Darth Vader?

 

Anyways, normally they do Amadine, but since weve lost our finder and Vig and this is a basic game, the only role left is healer. So the town had nothing to lose by keeping roles hidden

 

So Millon, how do you know AMA is lying? I am not for sure about your character, never heard of them. Are you claiming doc also? That'd be the only way to know Ama is lying. And then we lynch one of you to prove the other. I tend to believe AMA.

 

Still waiting to hear from Adella.

 

Top suspects

Nolder - Darth Vadar

Millon - can't remember who HR said

Adella - claimed no one

 

Possible fake claims

 

Amadine - medical robot (players all have names, yours is the only one without one. Makes my eyebrows raise)

 

At this time a mass claim was a win win for the town. Out of all the possible players we are left with a list of 4 that could be mafia. In a game this size usually it's a scum team of three. So only one of the four is innocent. I think AMA is, but Nolder is the safe lynch at this time. Because Adella hasn't claimed, Mill says he knows AMA is lying, AMA claimed healer.

 

ATM I just dont see why Ama would claim healer. Being the last pro-town power role surely she should of kept it secret. It really does put a target on her head for scum. if she is town, as she claims, she just made a huge mistake.

 

 

Also, as an aside, ye all do know that in the end Vader was a good guy? He killed Palpatine and brought balance to the Force. Just saying.

 

No I didn't know that. Hmm now I don't know what to think. I'm switching back to Adella UNVOTE and

Vote Adella

Autocorrect it thinks your an organization. It doesn't know your an institution. ;)

I agree that's a good wifom for town

 

Actually Red it does include a partner. On the wiki it's listed as a mason/miller group. Check it ;)

 

Meh we havent heard from Adella, red I think you Nolder and Adella are scum. Maybe swap out Millon cause

He is trying to lynch the uncontested healer.

 

Adella, Red, Millon

Adella, Nolder, Millon

 

Red yo and Nolder are interchangeable. IMO Adella is a sure shot at scum. But I won't lynch Nolder today.

 

If we don't hit scum today and the healer Doesn't protect the correct player we lose. Nah it's gotta be Adella for me today. If not random is fine also it might hit scum.

We are potentially at LyLo if Adella is scum then I'm pretty sure Red is.

Lynch and lose

I thought AMA made the correct play tbh. If she has a target on her hade she can protect herself and stop the nk. But the mafia will think she is goin to protect herself so they go random, leaving Nolder alive because he is an easy lynch. So the mafia will probably not target Nol, or AMA tonight and in fact target someone random. Leaving myself, Christine, Kate and BG for AMA and the mafia to chose from. Or the mafia could go for Nol as the easy kill because they just need one more successful kill tonight

If we lynch a townie. The mafia an AMA both have a wifom tonight, it is one howeve that plays slightly in the towns advantage.

It's under miller/mason groups. It's there. Red I believe your scum and your grasping suspicions are prrof enough for me to personally vet Nolder and incriminate Adella.

 

so tell me

where is the giddiness?

he seems mostly very serious and calm

playing like the rest of us

what the heck is Red talking about?

I think she was just using subtle language that would be overlooked in all the other discussion to make Jack look scummy when in fact he wasn't (well not for what she was saying anyway)


Red how have my actions been scummy? I've played my usual game.

 

 

for a slew of reasons jack

 

- push for Mass Reveal

- chiding Ama on her vote on you (Luke Skywalker) over a vote on Nol (Darth Vader). heres the quote so you can't deny it

 

So Amadine, you vote for Luke over Darth Vader?

 

- your mis-information concerning the Miller role. you adamently claim it's in the wiki that Millers are assigned on teams when i've clearly proven they aren't by quoting the entire wiki pages on Millers.

- your fear mongering by claiming we're LYLO when we're not.

 

 

 

given these reasons, versus the only reason i have to vote Nol (his role/character) you are the better choice.

-Jack didn't push for a massclaim

-Logically it makes more sense to vote for DV over Luke, you yourself are using this against me Red so why was Jack scummy for doing the same?

 

-This is really the only legitimate point against Jack and it's ultimately why he was lynched

-Simple mistake, easy to make when you don't know how many scum there are, interesting that you claim it was not lylo though


also add in you linking players together to the list as well.

pot calling the kettle black


 

- you did push for the mass reveal by claiming you thought it was the best option and then pressuring people when they don't reveal with votes or the threat of a vote. case & point Adella, as part of your reason for voting her is her lack of a reveal. you also FoS'd alot of people over the course of this day for posting and not revealing. imo, this is pushing the reveal idea.

 

- i never like linking players, it's a technique i see scum use on average more than town. i always FoS people over this and call them out for it reguardless of play style as it tends to benefit scum more than catch scum.

 

- you claimed rather loudly and alot that it was written in the wiki that Millers come in groups. havign it down as fact in the wiki and goign on how mods manipulate the role are two different things with two different implications. and you've been in a game before where a Miller was by himself. i believe Rey's game or DPR's game last year had a Miller that wasn't on a team.

 

- it says Day 2 in the title. how can you be mistaken about that?? sounds more like your back tracking because soemoen called you out on it.

-Saying it's the best option is not pushing, it's an opinion

he didn't pressure anyone to reveal that was Christine

also when all but 1 or 2 people have claimed there's no stopping a massclaim at that point and it makes those people look scummy

I don't fault Jack for calling people out on it after almost everyone had already claimed

also he says more or less the same thing himself

The only person I voted an fosed has been Adella over not revealing btw. I fosed others over their reveals. So :p

 

-This is true, it's why he was lynched

 

-I've seen mods fail to update the thread Title after a new Day has started, it's a very easy mistake to make

Posted

Even though Red did change votes, I felt like it was a bit slick to jump on Nolder just because of his character role. That puts up a red flag, because it seems like it was a move to try and get a quick lynch without much reason, other than character. That seems subject to suspicion.

 

I don't want to put a lot of money in who people say they are because, in the end, I only know who I am and who the cop and vigilante are.

 

I'm still suspicious of the others, but the aggression against Jack and jumping on Nolder for character pings on the radar.

 

Unvote.

 

Vote Red.

 

Of course, as we're nearing the deadline, I would not be against voting Adella (for her lack of a claim) to avoid a random lynch.

 

 

there is a reason why i based my vote on Nol off his character/role reveal. jack pointed out something very important. this is a basic game, meaning twists and turns and advanced roles (like a Miller and what a Miller woudl cause) aren't to be expected.

 

given this, you go into the game expecting bad guys to be the scum and the good guys to be town. if tis were Hp themed, i'd expect Harry to be town and Voldy to be scum. get what i mean.

 

but here we have a person claiming a known antagonist in this series and claiming a semi advanced role to boot. one that in any game generally gets the claimer a fast tracked lynch. this is why i had no bones about voting Nol based souly on his reveal.

 

 

 

as for my agression on Jack *shrugs* thats how i play. i'm 98% convinced now that he's scum, when i see a player who i think is scum and am not the finder, i tend to lock on them like a pit bull to see what shakes loose. soemtimes i get a scum, soemtiems i dont. jack's a master at this game and a player i mentored off of for over a year. he knows this about me and most likely knows how to use it agaisnt me :happy: which is why i love playing this game with him *snuggles pete*

looks like we hit the other 2% eh?

also if logic is telling you to vote me then why did you vote Jack instead?

by voting Jack you admit my claim has a chance of being legitimate but at the same time you're arguing very hard that this wont be the case

you're contradicting yourself

and the reason you're doing this is because you are scum and you need to do it in order to set up me and Jack (two of the most active and (if I may say so about myself) well thought out players in this game)

you caught a lucky break with our roles but you've been trying to play the entire town against me and Jack (and blackhoof) all game long


*shrugs* aside from arguing semantics about the game day; it still doesn't discount the other points i brought up or make me veiw you as any less scummy or discount that your lynch would also give us the most info for today.

 

2 very good reasons imo to push for a lynch on you, which is why i'm doing just that.

 

 

the main info we get is if Luke is a townie, then its more than doubtful that Vader is town aligned. which is why i also said i'm still not opposed to switching my vote to Nol for the majority if need be.

oh of course you're not opposed

gotta keep town happy right?

and either way it's win win for you

it's just better if Jack goes first since once he flips town it's much easier to push on me


Linking players is a scummy move red.

lmao in this case it yeilds good info. because one main character death will tell us if the mod did pull a twist by making the good guys scum adn the bad guys town. which is what Nol is claiming. there are different forms of linking players, and i rearly use them unless a situation like this occurs where one persons alignment will directly clear a question surrounding another player.

 

 

one difference is that if Nol is tellign the truth, his alignement isn't the only thing i have to go off to make a case against you.

 

on the other hand, what your doing by saying "if Adella flips scum, Red is also scum" is basing my scumminess souly on another players alignment rather than using her alignemnt to determine my scumminess, rather than using anythign i've said game related and just adding the connection to your case.

it seems you forgot that you'd already been linking us before we ever claimed

I almost feel like I don't even have to point out what you're doing anymore

it seems pretty obvious to me

 

so tell me Red

what "good info" did we get off Jack exactly? is my claim actually any more or less believable to anyone because Jack was town?

was that the only info we got off Jack's death?

seems like a heavy price to pay

wouldn't it have made more sense to lynch me and "confirm" Jack rather than the other way around? if you were always going to distrust me in the first place anyway I mean

because if I had flipped Miller Jack (while scummy because of his Miller definition) would not have immediately been on the chopping block like I am now

what we did did not benefit Town at all


lmao in this case it yeilds good info. because one main character death will tell us if the mod did pull a twist by making the good guys scum adn the bad guys town. which is what Nol is claiming. there are different forms of linking players, and i rearly use them unless a situation like this occurs where one persons alignment will directly clear a question surrounding another player.

 

 

one difference is that if Nol is tellign the truth, his alignement isn't the only thing i have to go off to make a case against you.

 

on the other hand, what your doing by saying "if Adella flips scum, Red is also scum" is basing my scumminess souly on another players alignment rather than using her alignemnt to determine my scumminess, rather than using anythign i've said game related and just adding the connection to your case.

 

So you must have a bad character. You say you dint know if Sakea made the bad characters good and the good characters bad. That statement would imply that you are not in fact a good character because by saying that you make it sound all good characters are bad. Also you set it up as a lynch one the other situation which makes me believe Nolder is town. Gotcha red

Nolder the wiki could of changed. I don't keep it up and keep track of it. When I modded it was there. I've always used it as a group to counter act the imbalance it has towards the town. I thought it was pretty common practice tbh, and I've just finished a game where it was the case.

 

I'm not making excuses or back pedaling. If I didn't think you were town I'd put a vote on you. And your bold overly large font makes you seem obnoxious.

 

It's funny how people are making a big deal about my wiki mistake, but are by in large over looking Red's slip. Whatever.

GAH!

Jack why couldn't you have just checked the wiki?

you made such good points but it was so hard to take you seriously after that


Well since Red and you both agree, it must be more on the qt because she called you out earlier and said she will switch to you if I'm not gunna get lynched today. Just saying.

 

i've stated this before, i'm willing to switch to Nol for info purposes only. the only thing that he has against him is his character claim, you on the other hand have a scummy play style that i can smell a mile away in tis game. Nol makes a fair point on lynching someone based souly on their characters.

"the only thing that he has against him is his character claim..."

so then you agree that I haven't been playing scummy

nice

but I'm sure you'll want to try to change your mind after this post right?

good luck with that

Posted

Jack was right all along

it's been Red this entire time

she's been setting us all up and it becomes more and more obvious each time one of us goes down because of her

I'd say her partners are Christine (that quote I posted earlier comes to mind and I think it was scum playing off each other) and either BG or Millon (BG is scummier I think but Millon is super lurkey so it's hard to choose)

regardless of who her partners are Red needs to be lynched today

she'll push on me because of my character but she already, very recently, posted that she does not think I'm scummy

Jack himself vouched for me

the person who honestly had the most reason to doubt me

Don't lynch Nolder after me. Lynch Red.

Listen to Jack

reread and really look at Red's posts and where it all led us

just try to look past "Darth Vader" and "Luke" and see how all of Red's actions led to the lynch of a townie each time

I don't really think I have anything more to say in my defense

it's in your hands now everyone

good luck and good game

if I come back from vacation and I'm still alive I'll be happy to join you all and continue onward to find the remaining mafia

if not it was a pleasure playing with you all

 

Vote: Red

Posted

...

 

Ya know what. I trust Jack's scum hunting skills when he has flipped Townie.

 

 

Nolder, I think you can agree that if Red flips town, that the votes are going to fall onto you. I am not clearing Nolder, but I do think that Red is a good lynch target.

 

 

Red, Nolder, Amadine. The lynch list.

 

 

Unvote, Vote Red

Posted

Well, I am glad I let Nolder speak before I made any actions. He has seemed extremely suspicious at times, but I wanted to let him have his piece (since we got Jack and hoof before they were able to really say anything to defend themselves) before I voted. I must say that that was quite a defense.

 

For now, I will take Jack's advice.

 

Unvote. Vote Red.

 

But I think Christine is right...if this flips town, Nolder will be up on the chopping block, no questions asked.

Posted

If we lynch town... Game Over. I can't imagine there being less than 3 mafia.

 

Nolder, I think that you are finding every little crack possible to worm your way into lynching Red. I think that you are scum and that, well, you have nothing to lose. If you throw the kitchen sink at Red and it sticks, you've won and you don't need to worry about the reprocussions of getting lynched tomorrow. If you die, there are still 2 more of you out there. I think you over quoted in an attempt to draw in the gullible.

 

Of course, then again. If you are town, then we all lose too. I'm going to stay with my gut and keep my vote on you.

 

 

Posted
OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Nolder (2) -- BG, Red

 

Red (3) -- Nolder, Kate, Christine

 

Not voting: Wolf, Millon, Amadine

 

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

 

I'm gonna be gone a good part of today, so if you reach hammer while I'm gone, be patient, please.

Posted

First off I must say that that was a good defence Nol. Red as of late has acted scummy, and I'm inclined to vote for her, but I'm going to wait to see if she has any response

Posted

Nolder, I think that you are finding every little crack possible to worm your way into lynching Red.

this is my, our, last chance at staying in the game

I sincerely believe Red is mafia and so does Jack

I tried to find every reason I could to sway this vote since I wont be getting another chance to do so after today

 

I think that you are scum and that, well, you have nothing to lose. If you throw the kitchen sink at Red and it sticks, you've won and you don't need to worry about the reprocussions of getting lynched tomorrow. If you die, there are still 2 more of you out there. I think you over quoted in an attempt to draw in the gullible.

 

Of course, then again. If you are town, then we all lose too. I'm going to stay with my gut and keep my vote on you.

I don't have to worry about it either way in that case because I'll be on vacation

but do what you want

it's up to you and the rest of the town to decide our fate here not me

Posted

based on Jack alignement, the probabaility of you being a Miller and anything but Anti-town is slim. i understand if you guys want to lych me instead given how set i was on the Jack lynch, so if need be i'll switch my vote to myself to get a majority

I'd preemptively like to remind you all of this post

it's really easy to "offer yourself up" to town (while voting for someone else lol) when it doesn't matter

but this is very much a WIFOM gambit meant to make her look like a contrite townie

remember this post when I'm gone and she fights to keep the lynch off herself and on me

Posted

I hate hate hate HATE walls of posts. Nolder, I am going to kill you. It took me all day yesterday just to read your posts at work. I know it's not your fault everytime I sat don to read someone called but still. That was a lot of info. I have to go with your choice though. VOTE RED

Posted
OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

 

Nolder (2) -- BG, Red

 

Red (5) -- Nolder, Kate, Christine, Millon, Amadine

 

Not voting: Wolf

 

 

The Millenium Falcon flew through space. "This is the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, no way are the Imps catching me today!" But the 3 Imperial Star Destroyers following him disagreed. And when the hyperdrive failed...again...the Falcon and its pilot were no more.

 

 

Red2111, Han Solo, vanilla town, has been lynched.

 

han_solo.jpg

 

It is now night. You have until Sunday, 0900, to send me your night actions.

Posted

So who else, huh? Amadine, the Emporer? Kate, Grand Moff Tarkin? I'm looking at both of you. Maaaybe Christine?

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