what happened to Narishma

[Nighttrain]

I'm glad this has brought up a good conversation personally I think it has something to do with him being named the next dragon. On a side note what is the veins of gold I don't recall them doing a reread so maybe ill find it soon. And when nynaeve checked Rand to heal the madness in him did she decide it would kill him or what?

[Hybrid]

And when nynaeve checked Rand to heal the madness in him did she decide it would kill him or what?

 

If I remember correctly, she decided that it was beyond even her skills to Heal his madness.

[nwash_10]

 

 

I actually agree with the idea that the scene was there to show Rand's continued paranoid state. Throughout all of PoD, Rand is screaming about killing any man who can channel. The entire book is basically a pysch eval on how crazy Rand has become. Just look at his attempt to kill all the Seanchan with Callandor. That's obviously went well. Every time I've read that scene I have assumed it was to show that Rand is having more and more trouble separating himself from Lews Therin (or his crazy ass paranoid tainted side, if you'd prefer).

Has anyone ever asked RJ/BS about this? To be honest, although I visit the forums often, I don't recall a consensus that the weaves on Callandor were obviously tampered with, in fact this is one of the few times I've seen it discussed.

And just because Rand thinks it wouldn't make sense to not tell Narishman all of the weaves doesn't mean that we can believe his pov 100%. remember we've seen how crazy Rands becoming. It's like reading a Fain pov. He may think that his motives are logical but the dude is batshit crazy. And I don't think that anyone takes his pov's as being 100% accurate. But hey, I could be wrong.

We've never seen Rand to do anything crazy like that. not once, not even close. If you have an example please do give it. This would be particularly true here because he'd certainly be careful when giving instructions about Callandor of all things.

Sorry guys but this explanation is completely out of the question IMO.

 

My point is that Rand is crazy and paranoid. He might have thought he was giving Narishma all the necessary instructions but his Lews Therin/Crazy part of his consciousness was in control and he didn't. And do we really need individual example of Rand being crazy or thinking one thing and having it be another? How many times do we see him paranoid of everyone. He even gets skeptical of Min in tGS and he isn't really justified in that. Jesus, he almost balefires Tam and thinks that Cads has turned Tam against him. Do you really think that Tam is against Rand? NO, you don't because we know that Rand is a crazy paranoid a$$hole. This is the type of stuff I'm talking about. We see plenty of examples of it.

I think it's much more reasonable to assume that the crazy guy who has been screaming about killing all male channelers might not be completely level headed then some giant conspiracy regarding additional weaves put in place so that Callandor couldn't be retrieved.

And that brings up another questions, if one of the forsaken put extra weaves on Callandor I think we all could agree they'd do something quite nasty. If Narishma could figure of the weaves then Rand sure as hell could have. So what's the point of adding the extra weaves if an ashaman could figure it out? Just to try and inconvenience/delay Rand retrieving Callandor?

I assume that if the Forsaken had really added weaves or wards to Callandor then something really nasty would have happened. Otherwise, what's the point.

But hey that's just MY opinion. So, feel free to tell everyone that it's ridiculous and completely out of the question again.

[michael.clinton83]

And that brings up another questions, if one of the forsaken put extra weaves on Callandor I think we all could agree they'd do something quite nasty. If Narishma could figure of the weaves then Rand sure as hell could have. So what's the point of adding the extra weaves if an ashaman could figure it out? Just to try and inconvenience/delay Rand retrieving Callandor?

 

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with the opinion, but it's fair to point out the contradiction in that. Let's change a few words in there and see if it makes any more sense.

 

"if Rand put extra weaves on Callandor I think we all could agree they'd do something quite nasty. If Narishma could figure of the weaves then one of the forsaken sure as hell could have."

 

Rand, The Dragon Reborn, the most powerful channeler on the planet, had set wards on Callandor. Wards that he was SUPREMELY confident would prevent any Forsaken from being able to get around. Wards that you propose he subconsciously 'forgot' to tell Narishma about, and yet Narishma was able to just figure them out? I just can't fathom that.

[nwash_10]

And that brings up another questions, if one of the forsaken put extra weaves on Callandor I think we all could agree they'd do something quite nasty. If Narishma could figure of the weaves then Rand sure as hell could have. So what's the point of adding the extra weaves if an ashaman could figure it out? Just to try and inconvenience/delay Rand retrieving Callandor?

 

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with the opinion, but it's fair to point out the contradiction in that. Let's change a few words in there and see if it makes any more sense.

 

"if Rand put extra weaves on Callandor I think we all could agree they'd do something quite nasty. If Narishma could figure of the weaves then one of the forsaken sure as hell could have."

Rand, The Dragon Reborn, the most powerful channeler on the planet, had set wards on Callandor. Wards that he was SUPREMELY confident would prevent any Forsaken from being able to get around. Wards that he subconsciously 'forgot' to tell Narishma about, and yet Narishma was able to just figure them out?

 

I'm not talking about Rand's weaves, I'm talking about the Forsaken adding weaves to try and kill whoever is attempting to retrieve Callandor...maybe this will help clear up my thought process:

 

I don't think Narishma would have been able to get through the wards without Rand's assistance. I think he would, like any of the forsaken, have been killed. I'm making the assumption (which I know I shouldn't be doing) that because Rand had told Narishma how to undo most of the weaves it would be a little easier trying to figure out the remaining weaves based on what he knows from Rand. it would seem logical to me that like a puzzle, knowing part of the answer makes it easier to solve compared to not knowing any part.

 

If the forsaken had added entirely different wards to kill whoever tried to retrieve Callandor then it would have been almost as impossible to figure them out, just like for one of the forsaken trying to get through Rand's wards without any prior knowledge.

 

Does that make more sense to you now?

[nwash_10]

The line always struck me as significant, but I wasn't sure if either it was Rand or Narishma that had made the mistake. I never saw anything like the wards being messed with there. It seems like a large extrapolation based on too little evidence.

 

I thought that Rand had either actually forgotten something important in his madness (unlikely), or, had given the absolute bare minimum of info leaving Narishy to work things out from what Rand said (more likely), due to his paranoia he was trying and failing to really trust him.

 

This^^^^

[FarShainMael]

I was looking up stuff about Cadsuane to respond to a thread from Luckers when I came across a couple of things re Callandor:

 

Light, he had told Narishma everything about the traps he had woven in the Stone when he sent the man to fetch Callandor. The man was imagining things! Burn him, but that had been a mad risk to take.

 

So whatever the problem was, it wasn't Rand's doing.

 

It is flawed.. lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint.

 

Does 'magnify the taint' suggest it can control the TP?

[Haggis]

I think I read somewhere that the wards on callandor it was one of the effects of the bowl of winds messing with the power. Could have been some theory though.

 

It makes sense to me though. After all if Rand did add more weaves or one of the forsaken doing it, what are the odds of Narishma surviving.

[Stoic]

The line always struck me as significant, but I wasn't sure if either it was Rand or Narishma that had made the mistake. I never saw anything like the wards being messed with there. It seems like a large extrapolation based on too little evidence.

 

I thought that Rand had either actually forgotten something important in his madness (unlikely), or, had given the absolute bare minimum of info leaving Narishy to work things out from what Rand said (more likely), due to his paranoia he was trying and failing to really trust him.

I'm not sure why you'd say there's too little evidence. The books explicitly mention one of the Forsaken adding extra wards to Callandor.

[GYLD]

Just going to sneak this in here amidst the other conversation...

 

On a side note what is the veins of gold I don't recall them doing a reread so maybe ill find it soon.

 

I believe veins of gold are first mentioned when Rand is bonded by Aviendha and the others. She describes the love Rand feels for her as "veins of gold".

[Suttree]

The line always struck me as significant, but I wasn't sure if either it was Rand or Narishma that had made the mistake. I never saw anything like the wards being messed with there. It seems like a large extrapolation based on too little evidence.

 

I thought that Rand had either actually forgotten something important in his madness (unlikely), or, had given the absolute bare minimum of info leaving Narishy to work things out from what Rand said (more likely), due to his paranoia he was trying and failing to really trust him.

I'm not sure why you'd say there's too little evidence. The books explicitly mention one of the Forsaken adding extra wards to Callandor.

 

It does? Could you provide a quote for that please? If it is there I don't remember coming across and would like to check it out...

[TreeJoe]

Look at the quote of Rand's thinking after Narishma accuses him. Rand clearly vacillates and tries to convince himself he told Narishma "enough".

 

Either Rand held back some information, or there was an additional trap set on it. But my personal thinking is that Rand held back.

 

Teaching someone all your tricks requires great trust - something Rand was notoriously short on since....oh, let's just say The Great Hunt.

[Hadilmir]

I very clearly recall a female channeler thinking to herself about having added wards of her own to Callandor. Can someone back me up on this? It's gotta be tSR-tPoD obviously, I just can't remember who or when.

[Luckers]

I also have no recollection of any of the Forsaken adding wardings. Mesaana speaks at one point of wardings on the Great Holding of Tear, which is a fairly big mystery, but there is nothing so far as I recall, or can find using Ideal Seak on the word Callandor, about a warding being added.

 

Possibly you are thinking of when Rand refers to going back and inverting the ward he had placed on Callandor using Asmodean's teachings--he specifically cites the ward and Asmodean and additions all in the one paragraph, so that might be the moment you're thinking of.

[Hadilmir]

Possibly you are thinking of when Rand refers to going back and inverting the ward he had placed on Callandor using Asmodean's teachings--he specifically cites the ward and Asmodean and additions all in the one paragraph, so that might be the moment you're thinking of.

 

Perhaps, I also tried IdealSeek before posting, but found nothing. I was hoping I was just using the wrong keywords...

[Aquarius]

Mesaana speaks at one point of wardings on the Great Holding of Tear, which is a fairly big mystery

THis has Moirane's name all over it, as far as I'm concerned. But maybe I'm assuming too much. She would have done that before leaving for Rhuidean.

[Negawonka]

I think people put to much store in that interchange - sometimes a cat is just a cat.

 

I doubt that RJ put that conversation in for more than just realism. Rand was pretty arrogant at that point in the series and thought his instructions were sufficient. Realistically speaking however, trying to undo the inverted weaves of someone else that are booby trapped has to be like trying to untangle a bunch of christmas lights with frayed wires that are plugged in while you are blindfolded. You are going to get shocked, you are going to be grumpy that you were shocked, and if the person who sent you on that fool errand had the nerve to imply only an idiot would get shocked following HIS instructions you might want to hit him in the face. Seems to me that is exactly how both people behaved.

[meeker]

 

Putting something like this in makes no sense unless the wards were really tampered with.

 

The mess with the wards happened just as The One power went all wonky. Because of the timing I had always assumed it was Calladnor's flaws that lead to the wards not being what he expected. It felt like it was meant to foreshadow what was about to happen.

 

If I recall he did use Callandor to make the wards that protected it, didn't he? Unless I am missing something this explanation seems simpler to me than someone else rewarding it.

[Sharaman]

Rand didn't necessarily use the sword to put the wards on the sword - I don't think that's canon. It's more like an open question that's not been clarified.

Also, AFAIK, the Callandor flaw(s) are related to the lack of a buffer - an unlinked channeler can draw too much OP and it can apparently (given Rand's emo responses) cause a feeling of hubris like being high on coke. But that could just be Rand/ LTT lunacy. Hence, whatever wards Rand or anybody else put on Callandor should not misbehave.

The original wards worked pretty well - Be'lal and the other FS couldn't take the sword; it was keyed to the Dragon's soul.

[Luckers]

Yup, I think it was just a matter of Rand's preoccupation. He can be awfully offhand at times, and if he forgot the slightest point...

[Louise]

I thought that Rand had either actually forgotten something important in his madness (unlikely), or, had given the absolute bare minimum of info leaving Narishy to work things out from what Rand said (more likely), due to his paranoia he was trying and failing to really trust him.

Exactly. That was the immediate gut feeling I got when I read that passage. He left something out. I wouldn't exactly say on purpose, maybe it was more subconscious. He just doesn't trust anyone, most especially with something as important as Callandor.

Burn him, but that had been a mad risk to take. -Rand, tPoD

For me, this line proves it. He was in no way comfortable with Narishma going to get Callandor, and perhaps a small part of Rand wanted him to fail.

[Nighttrain]

I think people put to much store in that interchange - sometimes a cat is just a cat.

 

 

Exactly I know we all read into everything but why couldn't this just be plain and simple. Narishma is going to follow him as the next dragon. We don't know what's going to happen after the last battle but if the light wins and everyone stays sane will the male Aes Sedai or Ashaman( whatever they will be called at that point) have a leader or join the women at the tower? I know its just speculation but that line always made me think ahead. Great comments though keep it up

[Lisa Campbell]

I think it is possible that Lews Therin added a twist to the ward that Rand didn't conciously realise. At that point in the story Rand didn't really know all that much about the Power and was mostly going on instinct, flying by the seat of his pants. He didn't even have true control of the Power back then. Control came later in the waste after he captured Asmodean and learned from him.

 

But that's off the original topic. I've often wondered about that snippet of prophecy stating that he who retrieves Callandor will "follow after". My first thoughts are that Narishma will be the next Dragon but that doesn't make sense as he obviously has his own soul, separate to the Dragon's soul.

 

So yeah, as I've again followed the convolutions in my mind of what it means that Narishma will follow after, I still can't think of a theory without shooting it down myself before I even contemplate posting it. The only one that can stand up is that Rand can trust Narishma, him being a true follower of the Dragon.

[Sharaman]

Obviously Narishma will be the next Ashaman to have three sister-wives, one of whom is Aiel and one of whom is not an OP user. My guesses are Merise, Cadsuane and Bair since he's into older women.

[Louise]

My first thoughts are that Narishma will be the next Dragon but that doesn't make sense as he obviously has his own soul, separate to the Dragon's soul.

Thats right. There can't be 'another' Dragon. The title itself comfirms it. The Dragon REBORN. One man, spun out again and again by the Wheel. ONE man. It's quite simply impossible. He must have an important part to play though. Maybe he sort of takes over where Rand will leave off. Maybe he will be the enforcer of the Dragon's Peace, continuing Rands work uniting the nations.

 

Obviously Narishma will be the next Ashaman to have three sister-wives, one of whom is Aiel and one of whom is not an OP user. My guesses are Merise, Cadsuane and Bair since he's into older women.

*slaps forehead* How did I not realise this before, it's all so clear now!

Cadsuane... one of three sister-wives to an Asha'man, now thts a hilarious mental picture. But maybe Sorilea instead of Bair...?