Where's Waldo? I mean...Demandred?

[Orderofolde]

There's lots of topics out there wanting to say Demandred is Taim, or we've not seen him yet...I think we've seen him, and not only have we seen him, he's one of the good guys we like right under our nose.

 

 

I've not seen anyone else put together the fact that Demandred's physical description is identical word for word in the description of Charlz Guybon's "smiling face that hasn't smiled recently" as the last description in the big meeting of the forsaken just prior (Crossroads of Twilight iirc.) when he arrives in CH. 13 of Knife of Dreams. We're all like...Yeah! and get caught up in that moment of 10,000 troops pouring in to help Elayne, putting 2+2 together with Birgitte wearing a sword now which is bad luck she ALWAYS dies soon after according to her, his being her 2nd in command and...hrm...now Caemlyn is burning, being invaded by many Trollocks. The narration says he would usually have to wait many more years before being considered for Captain. Not one we'd easily see coming. Not since he arrived and is the hero.

 

I've been listening to the Audiobooks, and low and behold, I'm listening to CoT to the big forsaken meeting Moridin has arranged, and there is a description of Demandred there just short of being pretty, with the exception of having a face made to smile but looks like he hasn't smiled in a while. I cheated a few more hours after and erased CoT and loaded KoD onto my MP3 player, as I was wanting to jump ahead on Mat and Tuon's arc, when I get to Elayne returning from being at the wall, seeing the column riding through, and the meeting and the description of Guybon.

 

I'm thinking...wait a sec...but then word for word I hear the description of Guybon and Presto! RJ wouldn't lower himself to give the same description for two characters, surely not the almighty RJ who has like 10 names for everything, for every city, every land, every people!

 

In defense of the most glaring problem against him which was riding for Elayne when she was taken against Balefire, it did jerk down and dig a trench seeming out of control. He could have used compulsion to attain his rank and channeled to move the Balefire or nudged that rod ter'angreal to divert it. RJ's foreshadowed and left clues that are head-smackers after large reveals so far. He actually is gifted enough a writer to have us looking at his hand as it's doing what it is doing and have us not see it in the same light until after big reveals. What's your thought? Hide a bad guy and make us like him...downright RJ all the way!

[herid]

Both RJ and BS confirmed multiple times that Demandred's alter ego has not been seen onscreen yet.

[Leyrann]

BS also???????

 

When? That would let only ONE character left in my theory.

[OptimusPrime]

I reckon Demandred is impersonating or controlling someone in the Saldaean armies. Taking advantage of Basheres absence.

[herid]

BS also???????

 

When? That would let only ONE character left in my theory.

ok, to be exact, here is what BS did say:

 

Towers of Midnight book tour 7 November 2010 Harvard Coop, Cambridge, MA - Zaela Sedai reporting

 

Q: Was Demandred or his proxy in Towers of Midnight?

A: No he was not; he will be in A Memory of Light.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

 

Someone asked for clarification about whether we had seen Mesaana's and Demandred's alter-egos on screen. Sanderson said that we had seen Mesaana's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams, but that we had not seen Demandred's alter-ego on screen as of Knife of Dreams. Sanderson would not elaborate on whether Demandred's alter-ego had been seen in The Gathering Storm—Sanderson didn't want to narrow down the suspects for us if Demandred really had appeared in The Gathering Storm.

 

so technically speaking this does not cover tGS. but it does cover all the other books and it certainly eliminates Guybon.

[Southpaw89]

and we gotta remember, not being on screen doesn't mean he hasn't been mentioned. So yes that does keep King Roedran in the picture of Murandy

[Superhal]

Hmm, there's the exact same titled post in the structured discussion forum.

[Nighttrain]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

[Durinax]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

[Lisa Campbell]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

 

Why does it rule out Roedran? He hired the Band in order to unite the constantly sparring Nobles of Murandy, hence, creating an army out of their vassals.

[Southpaw89]

Roedran NOT being at the Fields of Merrilor at the end of ToM and us not knowing what he's up to makes it almost guaranteed he's up to something shady.. More than likely because he's actually Demandred

[Eht Slat Meit]

Personally, I'm not keen on any theory that has Demandred solely in one place, or held to a particular identity. He's a man of proxies, and a general second only to the Dragon Reborn. In other words, he's going to be everywhere, and I suspect that his armies are going to be everywhere. All these theories that place him in Murandy, the Isle of Madmen, the Black Tower, Shara, elsewhere... sure, he's been in all those places, and they follow after him through figures like the king of Murandy or Taim. But Demandred confining himself to any one of them?

 

No way. They're just pieces of his puzzle.

[Suttree]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

 

Not sure why you would say that about Mesaana, have you read ToM?

 

As for Kandor they don't have a king. Queen Ethenielle rules(she has since NS at least) and we have a pov from her in the tPoD prologue indicating she is on the side of the light. Moving on to Roedran he is most def not ruled out.

[MasterAblar]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

 

Except that Roedran only began doing that in like book 8. Why would Demandred have waited so long to act? Also no Forsaken has impersonated a real person. They've simply pretended to be powerful Lords.

[Entreri]

It would be funny if Demandred sticks his head out in book 14 to get it cut off by a nobody.

[Terez]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

 

Except that Roedran only began doing that in like book 8. Why would Demandred have waited so long to act?

Because before then, he was occupied with the Black Tower. Moridin's return changed that.

 

Also no Forsaken has impersonated a real person. They've simply pretended to be powerful Lords.

Mesaana impersonated a real person (Danelle, not Silviana) because otherwise she would have had to use Compulsion on the entire Tower. All Aes Sedai have to know how long all other Aes Sedai served as novice and Accepted. She or Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell before then.

[Southpaw89]

hey Terez, you mention how you think Demandred stopped having influence over the BT when Moridin came along but why do you think that? I mean obviously the Moridin colors that decorate the BT is indication that Moridin has probably been there but what reason would he have to bump Demandred out? He seems to have Taim on the right track of training Asha'man ya know? Just curious what you thought

[RAbbott85]

I really don't think that we'll find Demandred has a high-ranking, powerful alter-ego. We know that Demandred likes using proxies, so the big shocker from him in AMoL will be who he's used compulsion on and which events he was behind. Since we don't know who he is, he is obviously very sneaky and it is unlikely he will be utilizing the same strategy that the other Chosen used - that would make it too easy for Rand to find him.

 

Aside from pulling strings and shaping events, I think he is the general that will lead the Shadow's forces from the Blight. He has likely been pulling in all of the DFs, Dreadlords, Shadowspawn, and red-veiled 'Aiel' (which I suspect may be Finn or bloodwrasps). Needless to say, Demandred's role as general will make him very important in the events of AMoL. To me, this is the only option that makes sense. Roedran is the last remaining suspect to be his alter-ego, and he is obviously not the strongest leader. Plus, if Roemandred wanted to gather support and unite Murandy, he could just compel or bully the lords and ladies into submission.

[MasterAblar]

Messana is sylviana and demandred is either on the isle of madmen or kandors king/leader. He did say he was gathering his armies and that rules out roedran.

kandor is a borderlander, thus rand has seen him ruling him out because obviously demandred is a darkfriend.

 

Rhoedran has consolidated his rule and thus has gathered his nations armies which qualifies him quite neatly.

 

Except that Roedran only began doing that in like book 8. Why would Demandred have waited so long to act?

Because before then, he was occupied with the Black Tower. Moridin's return changed that.

 

Also no Forsaken has impersonated a real person. They've simply pretended to be powerful Lords.

Mesaana impersonated a real person (Danelle, not Silviana) because otherwise she would have had to use Compulsion on the entire Tower. All Aes Sedai have to know how long all other Aes Sedai served as novice and Accepted. She or Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell before then.

 

The BT only started in book 6, and considering Sammael's comment to Graendal that Demandred and Semirhage might have had a hand in Rand's capture, despite how it ended.It ended with the Ashaman freeing Rand (more or less), which would mean Sammael is perfectly aware that Demandred is in charge of the BT. And yet he asks Graendal to figure out where he and Semirhage are, and we know that as of tGS, Graendal still has no idea where Demandred is. This would mean that all Forsaken are aware that Demandred is in charge of the BT, probably because the DO gave him that job personally. There's still from book 2 or 3 right to book 6 where Demandred is completely unaccounted for and considering the BT doesn't appear to be his personal power center, that would leave until book 8 for Demandred actually building is own independent power center.

 

That's true, I forgot about Mesaana, but she posed as a very low key Aes Sedai, one who isn't going to be in the lime light, whereas a Lord or King definitely will, and if you're impersonating someone else, that's quite a risk to take, as someone familiar with the person you're impersonating could start getting suspicious very quickly. And Lords and Kings tend to know a lot of people and be pretty well known.

[MasterAblar]

I really don't think that we'll find Demandred has a high-ranking, powerful alter-ego. We know that Demandred likes using proxies, so the big shocker from him in AMoL will be who he's used compulsion on and which events he was behind. Since we don't know who he is, he is obviously very sneaky and it is unlikely he will be utilizing the same strategy that the other Chosen used - that would make it too easy for Rand to find him.

 

Aside from pulling strings and shaping events, I think he is the general that will lead the Shadow's forces from the Blight. He has likely been pulling in all of the DFs, Dreadlords, Shadowspawn, and red-veiled 'Aiel' (which I suspect may be Finn or bloodwrasps). Needless to say, Demandred's role as general will make him very important in the events of AMoL. To me, this is the only option that makes sense. Roedran is the last remaining suspect to be his alter-ego, and he is obviously not the strongest leader. Plus, if Roemandred wanted to gather support and unite Murandy, he could just compel or bully the lords and ladies into submission.

 

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

[RAbbott85]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

[mbuehner]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

 

I tend to agree with this. Imo the best objection against Roedran is that an army of Murandians couldn't possibly be the center of the Dark's strategy, as BS has stated Demandred is. As soon as they spot a trolloc they will either run away or attack them. They could, possibly, stab the Andorians in the back with a sneak attack before the trollocs arrive, but the timing seems unlikely to me- they would have to be the ones currently burning Caemlyn... when the trollocs show up they will be perfectly placed to help defend the city. Otoh, invading Andor and drawing the defenders away from Caemlyn would have been a brilliant move, but that didn't happen.

 

However it would make plenty of sense if Roedran is a dark friend under the control of Demandred, and that Demandred is pulling a number of strings and coordinating all the Dark's armies... much more fufilling than filling out requisition forms in Lugard. The only way I am willing to buy Roedran as Demandred is if he is busy gathering Murandians together and balefiring them.

[Finnssss22]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

 

I tend to agree with this. Imo the best objection against Roedran is that an army of Murandians couldn't possibly be the center of the Dark's strategy, as BS has stated Demandred is. As soon as they spot a trolloc they will either run away or attack them. They could, possibly, stab the Andorians in the back with a sneak attack before the trollocs arrive, but the timing seems unlikely to me- they would have to be the ones currently burning Caemlyn... when the trollocs show up they will be perfectly placed to help defend the city. Otoh, invading Andor and drawing the defenders away from Caemlyn would have been a brilliant move, but that didn't happen.

 

However it would make plenty of sense if Roedran is a dark friend under the control of Demandred, and that Demandred is pulling a number of strings and coordinating all the Dark's armies... much more fufilling than filling out requisition forms in Lugard. The only way I am willing to buy Roedran as Demandred is if he is busy gathering Murandians together and balefiring them.

 

 

...and again, you have to ask yourself what exactly was going on in Tear, Caemlyn and Illian while Be'lal, Sammy and Rahvin ruled the roosts there.

It definitely opens up the possibility of large scale corruption at work.

 

You wouldn't of thought that entire Cities would of gone over to the Shadow during the AoL either but it happened.

[Luckers]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

 

 

Given a hundred thousand Shadowspawn were subverted by the Fake Sammael in KoD, 'securing' control of them makes a great deal of sense. Indeed their very obedience to the Chosen Mark was what made them 'unsecure' to begin with, and it makes sense to me that Moridin [who states directly his opposition to any further unauthorized use of the Shadowspawn] might have tasked Demandred [the Shadow's remaining general] with securing control of them against whomever was running wild [which could be done by, say, placing guards on the availiable Waygates and Portal Stones]. It would also explain why Moridin did not push Demandred any further than his comment.

[mbuehner]

Him being in the Blight doesn't fit with what he said in tGS though. He said "my rule is secure". Well if he's in the Blight it better be secured! Besides I think Moridin is taking care of the Blight and gathering the Shadowspawn.

 

I think "my rule is secure," in this theory, applies to his proxies elsewhere and his pulling in of DFs and Dreadlords. Yes, Shadowspawn is a given, but the other folks aren't quite as obedient.

 

I tend to agree with this. Imo the best objection against Roedran is that an army of Murandians couldn't possibly be the center of the Dark's strategy, as BS has stated Demandred is. As soon as they spot a trolloc they will either run away or attack them. They could, possibly, stab the Andorians in the back with a sneak attack before the trollocs arrive, but the timing seems unlikely to me- they would have to be the ones currently burning Caemlyn... when the trollocs show up they will be perfectly placed to help defend the city. Otoh, invading Andor and drawing the defenders away from Caemlyn would have been a brilliant move, but that didn't happen.

 

However it would make plenty of sense if Roedran is a dark friend under the control of Demandred, and that Demandred is pulling a number of strings and coordinating all the Dark's armies... much more fufilling than filling out requisition forms in Lugard. The only way I am willing to buy Roedran as Demandred is if he is busy gathering Murandians together and balefiring them.

 

 

...and again, you have to ask yourself what exactly was going on in Tear, Caemlyn and Illian while Be'lal, Sammy and Rahvin ruled the roosts there.

It definitely opens up the possibility of large scale corruption at work.

 

You wouldn't of thought that entire Cities would of gone over to the Shadow during the AoL either but it happened.

 

We know what wasn't going on in Tear, Caemlyn and Illian- wholesales conversion of the populace to the shadow. In fact there is no evidence of any such attempts in this age, as soon as those cities were conquered by Rand they followed his flag (or Elaynes in Caemlyns case). We see no evidence of mass murder, public executions, schools for the dark one, etc that were common features of the War of Power. The answer would seem to be that without a vast horde of shadowspawn to keep the population in subjugation, there is little reason to believe a populace would willingly turn to the Shadow, or even serve the shadow unwillingly without a fight. How this could work even in theory in an central nation like Murandy without news of it leaking out to the rest of the world is a great question. Of course there are always Dark Friends, but I don't believe there is any known example of a city or major population going over to the shadow without being conquered by trolloc filled hordes.