Why Verin didn't want Mat at the battle of Caemlyn

[Lisa Campbell]

sam makes a great point, verin could have made it very hard for the trolloc army to get through the gate all by herself, including lacing it with a large number of traps and removing the leaves. at the same time how much free will did she really have at that point, it could be possible that the shadow made her keep mat there. or stopped her from stopping the invasion.

 

I think that would have been betraying her oaths to the DO. She could only do that in the hour of her death hence the requested delay in opening the letter. Remember that she hoped to remove the oaths with the rod and then return. I'm sure she would have done something about it or told Elayne then.

 

Can you really see Elayne being patient enough to wait if Verin gave her the letter directly? (Stamps her foot and orders Verin "tell me now", then has to stop the tears from falling on her cheeks. Blasted emotions, blasted Rand for making me all emotional!)

 

At least this way Verin could ensure that someone knows. Hopefully Talmanes and Olver can do something to help because of her actions. If Olver hadn't opened the letter thinking Mat was being ill mannered by not doing so, the Band might not have noticed until it was too late.

[yoniy0]

i'm pretty sure verin was one of those that cadsuane was talking about in new spring.

Alas, she wasn't.

 

verin was far from weak in the one power.

She can Travel on her own, that we know for certain. It's also a good measure for her strength. However, 13th Depository's Linda ranked Verin on the 8th level of strength (out of 21 levels for female chanelers, as per RJ's remark) in her saidar ranking. It's mostly a matter of comparison with other womem, so it's not immediately clear why she has to be on that level (basically, if we take Moiraine as a marker at level 12, then Sheriam is weaker and Kiruna weaker still, but more than one level above Merana, which is as strong as Verin), but either way she can't be too strong. For comparison, the bunch Cads refers to in New Spring are level 13 and higher, the wondergirls level 15 (Nynaeve on level 18) and Lanfear stands alone at level 21.

 

Nevertheless, a bunch of Andoran guards are no match for her, I definitely agree.

[Negawonka]

i'm pretty sure verin was one of those that cadsuane was talking about in new spring.

Alas, she wasn't.

 

verin was far from weak in the one power.

She can Travel on her own, that we know for certain. It's also a good measure for her strength. However, 13th Depository's Linda ranked Verin on the 8th level of strength (out of 21 levels for female chanelers, as per RJ's remark) in her saidar ranking. It's mostly a matter of comparison with other womem, so it's not immediately clear why she has to be on that level (basically, if we take Moiraine as a marker at level 12, then Sheriam is weaker and Kiruna weaker still, but more than one level above Merana, which is as strong as Verin), but either way she can't be too strong. For comparison, the bunch Cads refers to in New Spring are level 13 and higher, the wondergirls level 15 (Nynaeve on level 18) and Lanfear stands alone at level 21.

 

Nevertheless, a bunch of Andoran guards are no match for her, I definitely agree.

 

Hmmm that is interesting but I thought Alivia was as strong as Lanfear was (someone saying they believed she was as strong as a woman could be in the one power). If it is because of what Cyndane said (about it being impossible for her to be stronger) that doesn't mean it isn't possible to be as strong as.

 

Back on topic though . . .

 

After rereading the section that has her letter, I am even more sure that Verin intended Mat to be there and to do something about it. Remember, characters in this series can be wrong about people and in this case Verin was only slightly wrong. She honestly thought that Mat would initially balk at opening the letter but would open it eventually because of his curious nature. She couldn't have forseen his reasoning that he couldn't take the chance on opening it lest it could potentially order him to do something long and time consuming.

[2RiversFan]

After rereading the section that has her letter, I am even more sure that Verin intended Mat to be there and to do something about it. Remember, characters in this series can be wrong about people and in this case Verin was only slightly wrong. She honestly thought that Mat would initially balk at opening the letter but would open it eventually because of his curious nature. She couldn't have forseen his reasoning that he couldn't take the chance on opening it lest it could potentially order him to do something long and time consuming.

 

I had a similar thoughts/reaction after reading that bit, but I also had these thoughts:

 

Mat, Thom and Moiraine will catch the 12 O'clock Tower of Ghenjei to Fields of Merrilor Express Gateway (remember the Asha'man with Perrin opened the gateway for Thom, Mat and Noal. Those same Asha'man are now at the FoM.) So, Mat won't find out about the contents of the letter until after the battle of Caemlyn (whether or not he gets sent there while the battle is still in progress).

 

It would be really cool to have Verin show up as a Hero of the Horn when Mat sounds it again for Tarmon Gaidon. She could then ask him why he didn't heed her warning... + I'd really like an explanation as to how she knew so much of the Dark's plan in the first place.

[2RiversFan]

Coming back to this since I saw a post where FarShaenMael poses: "What if Verin actually turns out to be black?"

 

That started me thinking about what the Dark would gain from Verin 'outing' herself and acting as though she were coming back to the light - since they 'outed' a huge portion of BA AS as well.

 

If there is some way that the Dark knew/knows that Moiraine must be present at TG in order for him to live, then there is some sense in Verin actually wanting Mat in Caemlyn instead of rescuing Moiraine. (So she and Moiraine then fulfill Egwene's Dream that Mat would have to choose between one of two AS (tPoD 15, according to enc-wot.org).

 

- Whichever Forsaken (probably Moridin) went to retrieve Lanfear from the Finns definitely knew that Moiraine was still alive.

- Having Mat in Caemlyn would supposedly preclude him from rescuing Moiraine, and therefore Rand would die (irretrievably?) at TG, ensuring the victory for the D.O.

 

I acknowledge this line of thought is quite shaky. I'd be more confident if:

 

- There had been some hint that the Dark knows of Moiraine's critical importance to Rand,

and

- There was more evidence of the Forsaken working together towards some grand scheme (rather than the factions we saw prior to 2/3rds of them being taken out)

 

Having said all that, Verin turning out to be black brings several things back into play that would force further consideration, such as Alannah would likely be Black as well...

[Cat-Sister]

Verin originally wanted Mat to promise to wait 10 days, open the letter and follow her instructions therein.

 

Because of his wariness of Aes Sedai he refuses and she asks him to promise to stay in Caemlyn for 50 days (I guess that she thinks that the invasion will happen by then and he will be there to either assist Elayne or save the day in the event of her absence). Mat refuses to promise that too so they haggle and agree on Mat and the Band staying in Caemlyn for thirty days, or him waiting the original ten days, then opening the letter and following her instructions. You might recall that 30 days suited Mat anyway because he wanted to research the Tower of Genji and start the ball rolling on the manufacture of Aludra's Dragons.

 

Verin misjudged Mat's curiosity vs/ his desire to be free of Aes Sedai strings, thinking his curiosity would win out, but I think she really did want to stop the invasion or at least reduce the damage.

People are overthinking this. Verin wanted Mat to wait to open the letter after 10 days or remain for 50, then 30. Either way verin covered her bases. If Matt opened the letter, he would have the Waygate destroyed or guarded. If he didn't open it and waited 30 days he and his Band would be there to assist in the city's defenses. Either way, Verin NEEDED Matt/the Band to be in Caemlyn, and through her Aes Sedai trickery she exchanged Matt the time he needed in the city with moving probably the finest army we've yet seen fielded in Randland outside of the Seanchan and the Aiel. Even should Matt himself not be there, Talmanas and Deirid (sp?) grew the band by several banners and not only ensured they had gold to spare, but obtained the crossbow cranks. Verin was shedding her cloak of the Dark One and returning to the light, though she never really strayed too far from it as a Darkfriend.

 

We also see too but I haven't seen it mentioned too much that the pattern forced Verin to find Matt/Matt's Taveren pull ensnared her because he needed a gateway and she needed to move on with her plotting and righting things for the Light. They needed each other.

 

It would make complete sense for her to be just "covering her bases"...if that didn't just make this whole plan over complicated, if she realllly wanted to make sure he did something to help she could have told him (or fearing being captured as a darkfriend,) could have told him she had something important for him to read right away upon her leaving....

[Lisa Campbell]

Verin originally wanted Mat to promise to wait 10 days, open the letter and follow her instructions therein.

 

Because of his wariness of Aes Sedai he refuses and she asks him to promise to stay in Caemlyn for 50 days (I guess that she thinks that the invasion will happen by then and he will be there to either assist Elayne or save the day in the event of her absence). Mat refuses to promise that too so they haggle and agree on Mat and the Band staying in Caemlyn for thirty days, or him waiting the original ten days, then opening the letter and following her instructions. You might recall that 30 days suited Mat anyway because he wanted to research the Tower of Genji and start the ball rolling on the manufacture of Aludra's Dragons.

 

Verin misjudged Mat's curiosity vs/ his desire to be free of Aes Sedai strings, thinking his curiosity would win out, but I think she really did want to stop the invasion or at least reduce the damage.

People are overthinking this. Verin wanted Mat to wait to open the letter after 10 days or remain for 50, then 30. Either way verin covered her bases. If Matt opened the letter, he would have the Waygate destroyed or guarded. If he didn't open it and waited 30 days he and his Band would be there to assist in the city's defenses. Either way, Verin NEEDED Matt/the Band to be in Caemlyn, and through her Aes Sedai trickery she exchanged Matt the time he needed in the city with moving probably the finest army we've yet seen fielded in Randland outside of the Seanchan and the Aiel. Even should Matt himself not be there, Talmanas and Deirid (sp?) grew the band by several banners and not only ensured they had gold to spare, but obtained the crossbow cranks. Verin was shedding her cloak of the Dark One and returning to the light, though she never really strayed too far from it as a Darkfriend.

 

We also see too but I haven't seen it mentioned too much that the pattern forced Verin to find Matt/Matt's Taveren pull ensnared her because he needed a gateway and she needed to move on with her plotting and righting things for the Light. They needed each other.

 

It would make complete sense for her to be just "covering her bases"...if that didn't just make this whole plan over complicated, if she realllly wanted to make sure he did something to help she could have told him (or fearing being captured as a darkfriend,) could have told him she had something important for him to read right away upon her leaving....

 

She couldn't do that without betraying her oaths to the Dark One because she had more letters to deliver before trying to remove her oaths (where it ended up that the Oath Rod was unavailable) and instead opting for suicide so that she could pass on her knowledge of the Black Ajah and what she knew of the Dark One's plans to Egwene.

[TheTuninator]

I personally explained it this way:

 

Verin knows about Mat's ta'veren-luck. She realises Mat would see opening the letter as a gamble: he doesn't know what he's gonna get, it can be awful and it can be awesome. But because of his luck, it will go the way that is best for Mat/the world (which makes sense if you see how the letter was opened, it was just some kind of coincidence that the letter opened).

 

So she didn't really have an intention, she just trusted the pattern :)

 

I am inclined to agree with this explanation, as I think it makes Verin not appear a total fool. Plus, I kinda like the idea that she'd realize Mat will, one way or the other, end up what's doing best for the Pattern.

 

Additionally, I'm of the opinion that Verin isn't Black simply due to her suicide. It would seem very odd and out-of-character for a Darkfriend to willingly commit suicide for the "greater good" of the Dark One. Darkfriends generally seem cast as rather selfish, power-hungry individuals, and suicide to benefit others runs rather against such ideas of personal benefit.

 

Still, I suppose there's always the true believers, and it definitely would be one hell of a twist.

[mbuehner]

Hmm. Some very good points here. The one about alerting Egwene is particularly telling. When she gave up her secrets, she gave up some doozies, so I dont see why she wouldn't have written out every scheme of the Dark she knew or suspected before she took the poison. Unless she had very good reasons not to.

 

Ok- so it appears to me that in fact she was banking on Matt not opening the letter in time. I dont think her oaths would allow her to preemptively betray her secrets just because she intended to die. If thats the case, we have to assume all of her red notes are still restrained by her oath (her note to Rand is amazingly pedestrian as a last possible bit of information to pass to the Dragon Reborn). That being so, the only way she could write down the information about Caemlyn is by ensuring (in her own mind) that the note wouldn't be read in time to do anything about it. Hence- Verin ensured Matt wouldn't open the note by stoking his paranoia, the opposite of her claim that she was enticing him via curiosity.

 

Here is the proof I offer- there are no instructions in the note that Matt would be required to carry out, there is only information that he would be sure to act on. Hence, there would be no reason to raise Matt's hackles by making him swear to follow whatever instructions might be enclosed (who would take such an open ended deal?) I can't think of a much better way to make Matt Cauthon to run away screaming, and Verin surely knew that.

 

But the fact that she had to reasonably ensure that he wouldn't open the note doesn't mean that she didn't ultimately want the note to be opened. Perhaps Verin left it to ta'veren meddling to ensure the information got into the hands it was 'supposed to', which it would appear is what happened. In other words, she reasonable ensured her secret was safe until it would do no good, and if it happened to be stumbled upon by some accident of fate she could hardly be accused of betrayal anymore than if somebody found her secret book or stumbled on a BA meeting. That doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't want Matt in Caemlyn at all. Just that she had to manipulate him in order to provide the information the light side would need. The fact that she didn't tell Egwene might suggest she DID expect Matt to be there and handle the situation without further help, which she considered important for some reason of her own. Which leads me back to questioning whether Verin went through the Rhuidean Rings, the knowledge she is dispensing seems oddly tailored to relatively specific and even obscure issues, Rand's note in particular. Why would she know or care that the King of Arad Doman was important to Rand? Why would she know that Matt or at least the Band should be the ones to relieve Caemlyn? And what do her other notes say?

[FarShainMael]

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if Verin had gone through the Rings. All other considerations aside, she's a Brown to the core.

[Mr Ares]

Hmm. Some very good points here. The one about alerting Egwene is particularly telling. When she gave up her secrets, she gave up some doozies, so I dont see why she wouldn't have written out every scheme of the Dark she knew or suspected before she took the poison. Unless she had very good reasons not to.

 

Ok- so it appears to me that in fact she was banking on Matt not opening the letter in time. I dont think her oaths would allow her to preemptively betray her secrets just because she intended to die. If thats the case, we have to assume all of her red notes are still restrained by her oath (her note to Rand is amazingly pedestrian as a last possible bit of information to pass to the Dragon Reborn). That being so, the only way she could write down the information about Caemlyn is by ensuring (in her own mind) that the note wouldn't be read in time to do anything about it. Hence- Verin ensured Matt wouldn't open the note by stoking his paranoia, the opposite of her claim that she was enticing him via curiosity.

 

Here is the proof I offer- there are no instructions in the note that Matt would be required to carry out, there is only information that he would be sure to act on. Hence, there would be no reason to raise Matt's hackles by making him swear to follow whatever instructions might be enclosed (who would take such an open ended deal?) I can't think of a much better way to make Matt Cauthon to run away screaming, and Verin surely knew that.

"You must reach the Queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate. It can be done; walling it up will not suffice. If you cannot destroy it, the Queen must bring all of her forces to bear upon guarding the location." Looks like an instruction to me. And considering she said of the instructions she was giving him "I doubt you will find my instructions harsh, Matrim,", I think claims that she was trying to stoke his paranoia are a little odd.

[shadowofomioc]

First post here, so first off, hello everyone!

 

This is actually something me and my brother talked about the other day. After talking about the ending of ToM and how funny it was that Verin would think so strongly that Matt would open the letter after a few days due to his curiosity and thus save Caemlyn in the process. This does not happen, so Caemlyn is burning at the end of the book.

 

If Verin's intent was for Matt to never open the letter and thus never worn anyone, then Caemlyn would of somehow been miraculously saved and atleast warned before hand. But, in the end of the book, the city is burning, or atleast has fires throughout.

 

Because of this it is hard to believe that Verin had anything else going on in the back of her mind. She thought Matt was going to take the bait and thus warn the queen of the coming dangers. Since this did not happen, Caemlyn is hit without warning. Unless the timeframe between rescuing Moraine and the kid opening the letter himself is shorter then we expect.

 

Which is possible. The kid ( forgot name somehow ) could of opened the letter very soon after Matt and Thom left to the tower. Matt and Thom also could of been in the tower for only a few moments, as time is always different in the waking world and the various dream worlds that we see in the books ( which all turn out to be the same world of course ). So, they could of been in the tower for only a few real world minutes, left, and then the kid opened the letter.

 

The topic of Verin though. I don't see any reason to believe she thought anything other then what her letter says. The letter says that she strongly believed Matt would open the letter in a few days. With 3+ weeks of advanced warning given to Caemlyn about the incoming trolloc army.

 

I think this event will spread into the " meeting " and it will make Elayne run to Caemlyn instead of sticking around to hear or have much input on the discussions. Throwing the entire meeting into dissaray. Elayne and Rand will likely bring other armies through gateways to save the city itself along with these "Dragons".

 

Anyway, thats what I think.

[mbuehner]

"You must reach the Queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate. It can be done; walling it up will not suffice. If you cannot destroy it, the Queen must bring all of her forces to bear upon guarding the location." Looks like an instruction to me. And considering she said of the instructions she was giving him "I doubt you will find my instructions harsh, Matrim,", I think claims that she was trying to stoke his paranoia are a little odd.

 

A little like saying- "your house is on fire, you will call the fire department and have them put water on it." Is it really a demand if the person is certain to carry out the instructions via sheer common sense? Nor does this address the issue of how she was able to hand him a letter betraying the DO, but couldn't just tell him about it. Why not just hand him the letter and tell him to open it in 10 days, is there the slightest possibility Matt wouldn't address the waygate without swearing an oath to do so? Why bring the 30 days into play at all? The whole thing is inordinately convoluted if you take Verin's claim at face value. However if you buy my theory that she manipulated Mat NOT to open the letter in order to satisfy her black ajah oath, her actions make sense.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I believe her intent was to protect Mat, whatever the cost to Caemlyn. By arranging the time components of their agreement as she did, she ensured that he would either open it very early (within 10 days), giving Caemlyn enough time to muster a reasonable defense or too late to put him at risk of being in Caemlyn at the time of the siege. Due to the dark prophecies, she's likely guessed that he's the One-Eyed Fool and was ensuring the prophecy didn't run against him.

 

On the negative... or positive side, depending on how you look at it, I predict that both Olver and Birgitte are going down in a shared MOA, reuniting them in the hereafter as Gaidal Cain and Birgitte Silverbow.

[vanadis]

Which is possible. The kid ( forgot name somehow ) could of opened the letter very soon after Matt and Thom left to the tower. Matt and Thom also could of been in the tower for only a few moments, as time is always different in the waking world and the various dream worlds that we see in the books ( which all turn out to be the same world of course ). So, they could of been in the tower for only a few real world minutes, left, and then the kid opened the letter.

 

 

Actually, I think that Olver won for the very first time in Snakes and foxes at the samt time that Mat and Thom got out of the tower with Moiraine. In the epilouge you can read that Talmanes is not paying much attention to the game, reading his book, and while Olver is thinking about his revenge on the shaido when he lands on the centerpiece:

 

-"I won! he exclaimed.

Talmanes looked up, pipe lowering in his lips. He cocked his head, staring at the board. "Burn me," he muttered. "We must have counted wrong, or..."

"Counted wrong?"

"I mean..." Talmanes looked stunned. "You can't win. The game can't be won. It just can't."

 

(p 835 ToM)

 

After that Olver reads the letter from Verin. I would expect Tom, Mat and Moiraine to arrive the day after the attack on the city, as they are waiting for the waygate that the Asha'man is going to give them.

[Mr Ares]

"You must reach the Queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate. It can be done; walling it up will not suffice. If you cannot destroy it, the Queen must bring all of her forces to bear upon guarding the location." Looks like an instruction to me. And considering she said of the instructions she was giving him "I doubt you will find my instructions harsh, Matrim,", I think claims that she was trying to stoke his paranoia are a little odd.

 

A little like saying- "your house is on fire, you will call the fire department and have them put water on it." Is it really a demand if the person is certain to carry out the instructions via sheer common sense?

Yes. However, it is not something Elayne was likely to do via sheer common sense - put guards or wards on it, reasonable. Even removing the leaves so it can't be opened. Trying to blow the damn thing up? Necessary, but not the first solution that would jump to mind for most people.

Nor does this address the issue of how she was able to hand him a letter betraying the DO, but couldn't just tell him about it.

What issue? She has to keep His secrets until the hour of her death. If the letter is not read until after her death, then she has kept the secret. If she tells him outright, or gives him a letter and instructs him to read it before she anticipates dying, she is violating the oath.

Why not just hand him the letter and tell him to open it in 10 days, is there the slightest possibility Matt wouldn't address the waygate without swearing an oath to do so?

From my perspective, or Verin's?

Why bring the 30 days into play at all?

To convince him to open it, and to ensure his presence where needed if he doesn't open it.

The whole thing is inordinately convoluted if you take Verin's claim at face value. However if you buy my theory that she manipulated Mat NOT to open the letter in order to satisfy her black ajah oath, her actions make sense.

No, they don't. Why is she even writing a letter at all, if she is trying to convince the guy she's giving it to not to open it? If she wants a delay, all she needs to do is make him promise not to open it for a few days. You've managed to make things even more complicated.

[mbuehner]

Yes. However, it is not something Elayne was likely to do via sheer common sense - put guards or wards on it, reasonable. Even removing the leaves so it can't be opened. Trying to blow the damn thing up? Necessary, but not the first solution that would jump to mind for most people.

 

I acknowledge that Elayne can be astonishingly stupid, but if the forsaken are about to bring a horde of trollocs through a waygate that is already known to be guarded, wouldn't the precaution of destroying or surrounding the waygate be imperative? You need Matt to swear an oath to convince her that this is a dire threat? Wouldn't Verin's letter as written delivered to Elayne be certain to convince her?

 

 

What issue? She has to keep His secrets until the hour of her death. If the letter is not read until after her death, then she has kept the secret. If she tells him outright, or gives him a letter and instructs him to read it before she anticipates dying, she is violating the oath.

 

But she acknowledges that her original plan is to find the oath rod and release herself from the oath. By this logic you could break the dark one oath at any time by simply swearing to yourself that you intend to go release yourself from the oaths or die trying sometime in the future. Literally taken, there would be no way to ensure Matt would open the letter in the hour of her death- in fact by her machinations she ensured he would open the letter long after her death. Could she have persuaded herself this is equivalent, given that the loophole exists by following the letter of the oath to begin with?

 

To convince him to open it, and to ensure his presence where needed if he doesn't open it.

 

Better plan- hand him the letter and say if you dont see me in 10 days please open it, its important.

 

 

No, they don't. Why is she even writing a letter at all, if she is trying to convince the guy she's giving it to not to open it? If she wants a delay, all she needs to do is make him promise not to open it for a few days. You've managed to make things even more complicated.

 

But you just made my point- why not just tell him to hold the letter for a few days and then open it? All her manipulation and deal making led to exactly what she was trying to avoid, Matt not opening the letter. Was Verin ever this sloppy? Given a far more direct alternative?

[shadowofomioc]

I have just read this section again, more closely, and it is pretty straight forward.

 

Verin comes and gives Matt the letter. Saying to him that he cannot open it for atleast 10 days. This 10 days is the window in which she is going to Tar Valon and will then meet with Ewgene to deliver the Darkfriend books. She says then that she expects to return to relieve Matt of the letter, but if not he can open the letter and do exactly as it says, or choose not to open the letter and wait 50 days in the city for her to return to him. Matt then barters it down to 30 days.

 

So its pretty simple really. Verin gave Matt the option to open the letter and do as she says, or wait 30 days in the city for her to return to relieve him of the letter.

 

She says multiple times that she fully expects to return to the city. But if Matt decides to open the letter and leave Caemlyn, he can do so, but not before 10 days has passed. I'm guessing she knows that in 10 days, she will confront Ewgene and either drink the poison and deliver the news, or not ( perhaps because she cannot see Ewgene due to her situation ) and return to Caemlyn to deliver the books to someone else, Elayne perhaps.

 

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

[vanadis]

I have a question, and perhaps someone already asked this, but why didn't Verin just ask Mat to give the letter to Elayne? If she didn't have an ulterior motive with the letter (and Mat) this would have been an easier way to handle the whole thing. Did her vows to the DO hinder her from doing this?

[mbuehner]

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

 

Which is why it was a terrible plan with an entirely foreseeable weakness. Why not just tell him to wait 10 days and then open the letter?

[vanadis]

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

 

Which is why it was a terrible plan with an entirely foreseeable weakness. Why not just tell him to wait 10 days and then open the letter?

 

Why not ask him to give the letter to Elayne? She IS the queen after all. In the letter she writes:

 

"You must reach the queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate"

 

So why not just ask him to diliver a letter to the queen? Verin was very aware of Mats distrust of AS. Has he ever shown such great curiosity that it would overcome his "unwillingness" to be ensnared by the AS plots? I just think Verin had something else in mind when giving the letter with those instructions to Mat, I just don't know what...

 

 

*confused*

[FarShainMael]

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

 

Which is why it was a terrible plan with an entirely foreseeable weakness. Why not just tell him to wait 10 days and then open the letter?

 

Why not ask him to give the letter to Elayne? She IS the queen after all. In the letter she writes:

 

"You must reach the queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate"

 

So why not just ask him to diliver a letter to the queen? Verin was very aware of Mats distrust of AS. Has he ever shown such great curiosity that it would overcome his "unwillingness" to be ensnared by the AS plots? I just think Verin had something else in mind when giving the letter with those instructions to Mat, I just don't know what...

 

 

*confused*

 

In post #25 of this thread I had a thought about that..

[vanadis]

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

 

Which is why it was a terrible plan with an entirely foreseeable weakness. Why not just tell him to wait 10 days and then open the letter?

 

Why not ask him to give the letter to Elayne? She IS the queen after all. In the letter she writes:

 

"You must reach the queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate"

 

So why not just ask him to diliver a letter to the queen? Verin was very aware of Mats distrust of AS. Has he ever shown such great curiosity that it would overcome his "unwillingness" to be ensnared by the AS plots? I just think Verin had something else in mind when giving the letter with those instructions to Mat, I just don't know what...

 

 

*confused*

 

In post #25 of this thread I had a thought about that..

 

 

Thanks!

[tlburchhardt]

Nothing really to debate, pretty straight forward. Matt though, seems to wait about 30 days, not open the letter and then LEAVE the city to go find Moraine. So that pretty much put the splinter in Verin's plans completely, the fact that Matt leaves the city as soon as the oath is complete.

 

Which is why it was a terrible plan with an entirely foreseeable weakness. Why not just tell him to wait 10 days and then open the letter?

 

Why not ask him to give the letter to Elayne? She IS the queen after all. In the letter she writes:

 

"You must reach the queen and persuade her to destroy the Waygate"

 

So why not just ask him to diliver a letter to the queen? Verin was very aware of Mats distrust of AS. Has he ever shown such great curiosity that it would overcome his "unwillingness" to be ensnared by the AS plots? I just think Verin had something else in mind when giving the letter with those instructions to Mat, I just don't know what...

 

 

*confused*

 

In post #25 of this thread I had a thought about that..

 

Post #14 of same thread- I was thinking the exact same thing! She is BLACK AJAH! I don't understand why people think she was just a double agent against the dark. Obviously, she did whatever she wanted and if doing something bad benefited her in some way she would do it. "But she sacrificed herself!" you say? Maybe helping the DO sack Caemlyn gave her something she really wanted.

[mbuehner]

Why would Verin turn over the entire Black Ajah if she was really black, plus confirm a Chosen in the tower and even naming her? I can think of an easier way not to alert the world to an invasion of Caemlyn... don't alert anyone to the invasion of Caemlyn. What could her goal possibly have been commiserate with death were she truly black? The dead have no interests, as they say.